I figured it out!!! Treestand height affecting shot.
 

There was a post about how height affects your shot, and we learned velocity vectors in physics today so I figured it out. There are a lot of variables that would change this, but here is a pic I made in paint.



I was not able to get a very precise reading because I had round my degree measurments as well as fps measurements, because my initial measurments were only two significant digits. I had to go back and change the numbers because of this, this resulted in the jumpiness of the text so I apologize for that.

I still think bending at the waist is the biggest problem though.

RE: I figured it out!!! Treestand height affecting shot.
 

It dosn't take an engineer to agree with that;):D

RE: I figured it out!!! Treestand height affecting shot.
 

Exacty!

RE: I figured it out!!! Treestand height affecting shot.
 

now is it able to calculate the distance change?
The part that alsways threw me off was the height of the animal. If you say the shot is 20 yads away, would the height of the animal figure into the picture? I mean we arent not shooting at a flat spot on the ground, rather a target at 20 yards aproximately X amount of inches above the ground.

Thats the one that gets me.

RE: I figured it out!!! Treestand height affecting shot.
 

the plane the deer is standing on is not that flat around here:D, thats why i said i lean out in/against my harness, wife says i'm crazy, i can live with that, btw thems some purty trangles you drawed, and i still say practice from your stand, thats how all my shots at deer have been, from my stand:D

RE: I figured it out!!! Treestand height affecting shot.
 

Phade, you could say the stand was 17 feet and account for the deer being 3 feet off the ground and I think it would be the same. I'm not figuring it out it took to long in the first place lol.

RE: I figured it out!!! Treestand height affecting shot.
 

Wrong answer ! Nope aint buying it, you will not gain 10 fps second shooting at that angle. The answer is gravity , gravity pulls an arrow down as you shoot horizontally when you shoot down gravity doesnt have that same pull cause your already shooting down, theres no arch in the path of the arrow when your shooting down. same with a rifle shooting down a mountain.

RE: I figured it out!!! Treestand height affecting shot.
 

Do I feel stupid now or what??? [8D] Thanks for all the math, but I just bend at the waist ;)!

RE: I figured it out!!! Treestand height affecting shot.
 

horzontal velocity and vertical acceleration are independent. and nuge, you should be ashamed of yourself, a budding physicist, for converting any of those numbers out of the metric system. also, horizontal velocity, in a perfect equation or a vacuum doesn't change, but with vane drag it sure does. you could have easily figured the distances using the good old pythagorean theorem. an object will gain an immediate vertical acceleration of 9.8 m/s2 no matter which direction it is fired in, but that's just it, vertical acceleration, straight down towards the center of the earth. it will gain no horizontal velocity as a result of this ever, period, they are independent. the distance should be measured from the ground to your target, so in your triangle you would use your 20 yd pin and not adjust as if it were a 21 yd shot. if you fire a rifle perfectly level with nothing in its way and drop a penny at the same time and from the same height, they will both hit the ground at exactly the same time. think about that.

RE: I figured it out!!! Treestand height affecting shot.
 

gibblet,
You are absolutely correct. Horizontal distance is the only factor influincing arrow drop. However, at relatively steep angles such as if you are 30 feet (10 yards) up a tree shooting at a target that is 10 yards from the base of your tree, your lazer would read (line-of-sight) 14 yards and some change. This accounts for the majority of close shots being high. At 20 yards the effect is somewhat less with a hypoteneuse of 22.4 yards. The further out you get, the less effect it has. I used to carry a pocket calculator to the stand with me to do yardage conversions and I guess for something to do (yeah I'm an engineering nerd).

RE: I figured it out!!! Treestand height affecting shot.
 

I was not talking about verticle aceleration being compared to the horizontal velocity. The 32 feet/sec squared is the verticle acceleration shared by both arrows. There is a forward velocity and a downward velocity on the angled arrow. Velocity and acceleration are totally different. I also think that the vane drag would be equal with both arrows. If you read the info I do use the horizontal distance to judge both of the of times.


zrexpilot if gravity is NOT pulling the downward angle one down then I ask you this, Would it hurt more if I dropped a rock on your head from 20ft or 3 ft?

RE: I figured it out!!! Treestand height affecting shot.
 

Maybe I just aint explaining it correctly. If you shot your bow at a perfect horizontal line of sight out at a target 40yds away how much would the arrow drop by the time it reached the target, I'm just throwing a number out there but lets say 10 inches of drop, okay now climb a tree and shoot 40 yds straight down, how much will the arrow drop ? zero because your shooting down, the arrow will fly with a perfect line of sight. You could shoot from a mile up in the air it would still fly straight with line of sight. you understand what I'm trying to say ? gravity has less affect on pulling an arrow down from line of sight when shot at a downward angle, the steeper the angle the less the arrow will drop from line of sight.

RE: I figured it out!!! Treestand height affecting shot.
 

Simple search turned this up. Says basicaly the same thing I've been saying.
http://www.gandermountain.com/hunting/article.asp_Q_id_E_40

RE: I figured it out!!! Treestand height affecting shot.
 

Boy all this talk about angles, degrees, etc.
Why not just do what I do? If I'm on an evening hunt, before I get into my tree stand, I take a couple quick yardage readings at various trees around my stand. If I'm in my stand before light, when it does get light, I shoot a few yardages at branches on my level.
Oh yeah, and practice from a tree stand if you can.

RE: I figured it out!!! Treestand height affecting shot.
 

... or you can just range to the nearest tree on the same level as you stand and use the correct pin for that distance.

Think about where the arrow would exit if you get a pass through and if that would be sticking through the heart on both sides, SHOOT!

RE: I figured it out!!! Treestand height affecting shot.
 

here's a quote from that article that i think explains it well (below my post). nuge, if you fire a projectile at a target 40 yds away horizontally, but 50 yds down vertically, it will only get to the target as fast as its horizontal velocity gets it there. the vertical acceleration will not affect the speed that it gets there. yes, it will exert downward force on the target also, but that won't get it there any faster. again, think about the bullet and penny example, this shows the independent nature of those 2. in your rock example, it would depend if you used the same rock for both trials.

"Here's how geometry can be used to calculate how arrow trajectory changes when shooting on an incline:
Visualize the hunting situation as a right-angle triangle, with two perpendicular legs; (A), the distance from the hunter to the ground; and (B), the distance from the animal to the ground directly below the hunter. The sloped hypotenuse, (C), is the distance from the hunter to the animal. In essence, the drop of an arrow fired along the inclined hypotenuse will equal the drop of an arrow traveling the horizontal distance (B).
For example, imagine you're on a cliff, where you spot a buck standing below at a 45-degree angle to your line of sight. Your rangefinder shows that the distance along the sloped line to the buck is 30 yards. Using a basic formula from geometry, called the Pythagorean Theorem (A2 + B2 = C2), you can calculate that side B, representing the horizontal distance to the deer, is roughly 21 yards. To hit the deer in the kill zone, then, you would use the 20-yard sight pin, not the 30-yard pin."

RE: I figured it out!!! Treestand height affecting shot.
 

You would still hit high gibblet, because a bow sighted in at 20 yds horizontally will have some type of drop (trajectory) when shooting at the elevated position 21 yds out, ( 30yds from arrow to target) the arrow has less trajectory because your shooting down, the arrow will hit high using the 20 yd pin.

RE: I figured it out!!! Treestand height affecting shot.
 

gibblet in no way am I stating that you are using two different aiming points. Totally disregard the fact that I figured out the hypotenous of the triangle. I am saying that this is if you use your 20yd pin for both of them.

I know the verticle acceleration will not affect the speed I never stated it would. Both arrows are being affected equally by the verticle acceleration. The fact is the angled arrow has verticle velocity as well as forward velocity.

Zrexpilot, I think we are kind of agreeing because I'm saying that the reason you have less arc on a angled arrow is because of speed, and you are agreeing but you don't really have a reason for less arch.

RE: I figured it out!!! Treestand height affecting shot.
 

no, u no understand.

RE: I figured it out!!! Treestand height affecting shot.
 

We already had this discussion...lol

Same things came up.
http://forum.hunting.net/asppg/tm.asp?m=768701

RE: I figured it out!!! Treestand height affecting shot.
 

Some people just have to make things more complicated than they really are:eek: If you know your ability and your equipment, and you know how to hunt, you dont need the a squared x's b squared..........save that crap for the classroom![8D] Go out and practice!

RE: I figured it out!!! Treestand height affecting shot.
 

Yes yes I do understand, LOL. It has nothing to do with velocity, accleration, hypothesis right triangles or anything. it's all about gravity thats it.

RE: I figured it out!!! Treestand height affecting shot.
 

no. you are still mistaken ;)

RE: I figured it out!!! Treestand height affecting shot.
 

This whole thread flew right over my head without dropping an inch :).

RE: I figured it out!!! Treestand height affecting shot.
 

just what i needed somethin else to worry about, if a deer is standing 27.4 yrds out he's 36" tall at the shoulder, the platform for my stand is at 19'3" i'm 5'10" and i weigh 215lbs and the wind is from the north and i'm shooting 100gr mechanical bh's, with a release, my bow is shooting 278fps, and the hillside i'm hunting is a 13.6% grade, should i use my 30 yrd pin and shoot low or my 20 yrd and aim high[&o], cause if i got to buy a scientific calculator for this the wife is gonna have a cow[:o]

RE: I figured it out!!! Treestand height affecting shot.
 

:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D :D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D :D:D:D:D:D:D

RE: I figured it out!!! Treestand height affecting shot.
 

Gibblet do you know that if you stand on a hill at the right grade you could use your 10 yd pin all the way out to 100yds ?

RE: I figured it out!!! Treestand height affecting shot.
 

No way can I figure that out on sloped terrain and from different heights I hunt. I have a simpler solution...... SHOOT THE DANG DEER!:)

RE: I figured it out!!! Treestand height affecting shot.
 

Zrexpilot: Wrong answer. Gravity has the same pull on everything no matter which way it is going. Gravity is an acceleration, therefore all objects will feel the same acceleration until they meet terminal velocity. Also there IS "arch" in anything you shoot; rifle, bow, or sling shot. It doesn't matter if you are shooting uphill or downhill, it has a trajectory that is not flat. As soon as a projectile leaves gravity is automatically pulling it off the horizontal path. For this reason bullets and arrows are must be aimed high in order to hit a down range target at the correct height.

RE: I figured it out!!! Treestand height affecting shot.
 

Get on a skyscraper and shoot perfectly straight down and tell me it has an arch.

RE: I figured it out!!! Treestand height affecting shot.
 

Did anyone bother to read the link I posted ? I though it expalined it quite well. here I'm just gonna paste it here.



Shooting on an Angle

Bows are generally sighted in for horizontal shots, where arrow trajectories are predictable. However, when you shoot from a high tree stand or on an uphill or downhill slope, the rules for trajectory change.

At a given distance, gravity has the greatest effect on trajectory for an arrow flying horizontally, and has gradually less effect as the shooting angle is raised or lowered. The reason for this is that the trajectory arc is determined by the horizontal distance the arrow travels, not the overall distance. When shooting at steep angles, either up or down, aiming for the actual distance to the target is a mistake, since this measurement may be considerably larger than the horizontal distance that governs the arrow's trajectory. For example, if you shoot at a target 40 yards away down a steep hill, using your 40-yard sight pin, your shot will probably go high of the mark. At steep angles, you must learn to compensate by aiming low.

RE: I figured it out!!! Treestand height affecting shot.
 

anybody ever play monopoly and hear the phrase "go directley to jail"[:-]

i'm with you though zrex, more downhill or a more drastic angle is less drop or arch, i did read your link, like i said before shooting up/downhill changes things for me, it always has, and i still say practice from a tree just like real conditions.

RE: I figured it out!!! Treestand height affecting shot.
 

Or maybe the deer just ducks the arrow and you people need to aim a bit lower and forget the math.

RE: I figured it out!!! Treestand height affecting shot.
 

I saw a hyptenouse at the zoo once. I think I'd crap myself if I were to meet one in the wild and only had my bow!:D

RE: I figured it out!!! Treestand height affecting shot.
 

If I remember correctly I was the one who posted the orignal question about shooting out of a tree stand this season.:eek: See: http://forum.hunting.net/asppg/tm.as...1&key=&#745256 Anywho, Im in awe of all of the intrest in the subject.:) I'm just a simple minded country boy at heart and (no offence) I don't plan to watch a deer pass while I take out my calculator and figure out the hypotanusssesusesss of how far it is. I'll be happy with practicing at home, bending at the waist, and taking a clean shot.:D However, all of ya'll have truly made me think....naw' I wouldn't go that far. But you impressed me with your kanawledge.;)

RE: I figured it out!!! Treestand height affecting shot.
 

By the time the nuge has all of his vectors, velocities, acceleration, and distance figured, I will have shot, tracked, gutted, and began dragging my deer;)

RE: I figured it out!!! Treestand height affecting shot.
 

Wow,You guys have way too much time on your hands.I can hardly reset the time on the VCR,and you guys are figuring out all these calculations for a treestand shot,unbelieveable!
I hunt alot of hillsides,and I could just see myself making a bunch of calculations for a shot.
Practice,know your equipment and skill,bend at the waist,and use a rangefinder.
One other thing,Aim a little low,you will be amazed how well this works when shooting out of a treestand...Bob

RE: I figured it out!!! Treestand height affecting shot.
 

I agree with the original post though wording Im not sure about. Using a 20 yard pin, if you have an upward arc, with a horizontal shot you are shooting against gravity. This in itself will slow the arrow. Shooting downward you do not have an upward arc that is moving against to the gravity field. You are closer to parallel. The closer to parallel of gravitational pull you are, the less resistance to your arrow and the farther it can go. It has nothing to do with how long it takes to drop, it has to do with the forward momentum and how far it will travel before its time is up.
Stryker777

RE: I figured it out!!! Treestand height affecting shot.
 

I'm with thundermug on this one.
I don't know if I have enough KE to get adequate penetration on a hypotenouse!:D:D:D:D

RE: I figured it out!!! Treestand height affecting shot.
 

I'm never going to really do that on stand, I was just doing it because I wanted to know why it happens, and what causes it. I practice out of treestand all the time and I know how my bow shoots. This was totally unecessary I just thought I would do it for fun or proof.