3/4 inch groups ?
 

I'm new to bows/archery. I bought a bow before the start of last season figuring I'd practice for a year before going into the field with it. I'm sure I've shot over 2,000 arrows, but at 30 yards the best I can constently do is like 3", with my best ever being just over 1 1/2 inches.

I went to the bowshop after reading a post here from someone claiming to be shooting 3/4 inch groups because I thought my bow might be messed up. Nope nothing wrong with the bow. So I figured it must be me. The guy at the range watched me shoot a half dozen times and said he couldn't see where I was doing anything wrong.

Now, I know that without actually seeing me shoot it's pretty much impossible to say what it might be, but I'm hoping someone might be able (and willing) to give me a few tips on what to look for.

Generally, when the groups get larger, the arrows are off to the left, but from time to time they're "erratic" - some low, some high, and a few to the right. I'm pretty sure the bowshop knows what they're doing, and it's not the bow, - the only problem is the "nut that holds the release".

Any tips or advice will be greatly appreciated - thanks in advance.

RE: 3/4 inch groups ?
 

Shoot around 10,000 more and you will be there:D

It don't come overnight;)

RE: 3/4 inch groups ?
 

Are you talking about three inch groups around the bullseye? If you are, that's not bad for hunting situations at 30 yards. There are always ways of improvement. Mostly, a correct and consistent shooting style.

RE: 3/4 inch groups ?
 

Do not get discouraged!!! I have been bow hunting for 10+ years now, and I need to fine tune not just my bow, but my shooting form. Here are a couple of things that might help. 1) Hold your follow thru on every shot. This is important because if you grab your bow after you shot, it may be throwing your arrows off. 2) Relax your bow hand. I hold my bow with little tension on my bow hand. I do not grip the bow until I shot and hold my follow thru. 3) Bend your elbow on your bow arm. When you hold your bow, if you are not already, bend your elbow slightly. This helps with the tension in you arm, as well as building up arm strength. I hopes this helps a little bit. I know you say you shot over 2,000 arrows, but I am here to tell you it will take more than that to develop the shooting form you are looking for. GOOD LUCK!!!

RE: 3/4 inch groups ?
 

I've been shooting my old PSE bow for roughly 3 1/2 years now. Rack Attack is right. It don't come overnight....

My best is 1/2" groups at 20 yards, 3/4" groups at 25. At 30 yards, I'm still okay and can do about 1" groups (when I can do it). 40 yards - I don't even try to group, because I'm a bit unsteady at that range.[:-]

I'm sure I don't have to say it, but the keyword is PRACTICE.

Butch A.

RE: 3/4 inch groups ?
 

Keep up the good work. Another thing you want to keep in mind is that people exaggerate too. I've been shooting 27 years and my groups are just about like yours. My brother on the other hand has been shooting about as long as I have and he can shoot circles around me. So don't get discouraged some people can shoot tighter groups then others, that's just the way that it is.

RE: 3/4 inch groups ?
 

Three inch groups at 30 yards is good enough for bow hunting,Unless your hunting out West where there is no cover. Most of your shots should be within 25 yards.

RE: 3/4 inch groups ?
 

I have been bowhunting for 20+ years and really can't do much better than that on consistent basis. If you can shot that type of group with you hunting setup you should be ready to go.

Good Luck

RE: 3/4 inch groups ?
 

This is an interesting thread....
I don't group that well either but then I have only been shooting archery for 2 going on three years. A couple of things I've learned are:
1) Do not squeeze the bow as you're ready to shoot. I was always gripping tight and my brother noticed this and told me hold the box steady but not squeeze the fingers tight.
2) This year I learned that I sometimes pull my string towards me with the release - not just straight back. This explains why I would constantly shoot to the left. (I'm left-handed by the way) I kept thinking this was caused by my sight so I kept adjusting it and got the same results. Now I know not to 'pull' the string and the arrows fly straight.

Just my two cents...let's hear more from others.....

RE: 3/4 inch groups ?
 

If you can shoot a 3 inch group at 30 yards you are capable of taking a deer at 30 yards. I know you're striving for perfection as you should but it takes time. I started shooting a bow almost 12 years ago. I have good days when it's necessary to shoot at diffrent targets to avoid ruining arrows and I have day2 that don't care to discuss. If you can consistantly shoot a 3" group @ 30yds you ready for the woods. If you keep shooting and practicing with good form you're groups will tighten with time.

Keep shooting and having fun, That's what it's all about;)

RE: 3/4 inch groups ?
 

I'd say from here out its all gonna be your form, strength, aiming, releasing, and breathing.

2 tips I would give anyone to instantly improve their shooting, whether w/ a bow or gun:

#1 - Aim for a specific spot. If you shoot for the big round yellow dot then you are giving yourself 2 inches of slop even before releasing the trigger, but if you aim for the very bottom edge of that same big round yellow dot then you've eliminated that bit of slop, thus tightening your group already.

#2 - While you are aiming at that one spot, concentrate on your breathing but do not hold your breath. Begin to release as soon as you are satisfied that you are aimed correctly and your breathing is under control. Try to complete the release when your breathing is at the top or bottom cycle of a breath - that is, the small window of time when your chest and body moves the least when breathing. It is at the top from the time you are about done inhaling to the time that you start to exhale. It is at the bottom from the time you are about done exhaling to the time you begin to inhale.

Give those 2 things a few practice shots and see if your groups don't tighten up automatically.

RE: 3/4 inch groups ?
 

Don't be too hard on yourself. I just measured my coffee cup diameter, the standard kind that you get your kid's picture 'branded' on, and it is exactly 3". If you can consistantly put three arrows into a coffee cup at 20 yards, you can kill a deer easily. The old timers used a pie plate as a measure for hitting and killing a deer. What I would be more concerned about is eliminating those erratic ones, since they are the ones that can wound a deer and cause for a long track and/or a possible lost deer.

RE: 3/4 inch groups ?
 

How many arrows are we talking about? That makes a difference. The more arrows you shoot, the bigger your group will most likely be. Try three arrow groups and see if it gets a little better. Honestly, 1.5 to 3 inch groups at 30 yards is pretty average I would think. I would be very happy with that if I were you. No problem wanting to get better, but don't be discouraged if it never happens.

Mostly what is going to effect your groups is your shot sequence and form. The better you get, the more accurate you will become. There are so many things to do in archery, it's hard to get all right every time. And that is the key to good archery, consistancy. You need to everything exactly the same way every time. That's the difference between a pro shooter and an average shooter. Just practice until everything becomes becomes second nature and subconcious. All you should have to do is concentrate on the spot, the rest will just happen. It helps to have your bow set up properly as well. Has more to do with how it fits you than tuning for the most part. Don't be afriad to get a coach or something if you want to get better. There are a few books out on the subject as well. I have Idiot Proof Archery and it is pretty good, there are others though. Or visit sites that are more dedicated towards target archery. Someone here could suggest a few. I can't remember them right off the top of my head. Many here visit numerous sites though and could make some suggestions I'm sure.

As far as hunting goes though, I know some that shoot a tad bit worse than you do and still have no problem taking game every year. You just need to know your limitations is all. If you dont' shoot that well past 30 yards, limit your shots to around 25 yards or so. It takes a little restraint, but that's what hunting is about.

Good luck,
Paul

RE: 3/4 inch groups ?
 

I am not a tournament target shooter, I am a hunter, so when I practice, I judge whether or not I would have made a killing shot (I aim for the lungs) and go off of that, rather than measuring a 2 and 2/7 inch group... I always try to make the best shot I can, but I honestly don't concern myself as much with groups as some do...

I started shooting from 40 yards this summer and though the groups may not be ultra impressive, I can hit a pie plate everytime, and would definitly consider a shot at a deer if everything was perfect, (feeding, unalert deer, etc) as I feel confident in my ability to make a lethal shot from that distance

RE: 3/4 inch groups ?
 

RA's right !!

It takes a while !! I'm pretty sure it took me two years to quit punching the release !! [8D]:(;)

I'm being serious !!!!!!!!!!! I shot pretty good.........started asking questions like yourself..........figured out part of my problem was trigger punching..............two years later I finally got a smooth release going consistantly without punching !!

How's that for a slow learner !! :eek::D

RE: 3/4 inch groups ?
 

Trigger punching? OMG, I did that too for the longest time! [&o]

I started out with a Tru-Fire 3 finger "Crackshot" release (thumb trigger activated). It worked okay and was nice and comfortable to hold, but would cause string torque and most importantly, the strong desire to slam the trigger with your thumb. I worked with it for about a year, then I moved on (staying with Tru-Fire products), and got the Tru-Fire Magnum wrist release that has a normal trigger and a wrist strap. The rotating head on it is great - zero string torque! I relax and gently press the trigger, and can get 1/2" groups at 20 yards with it.

Butch A.

RE: 3/4 inch groups ?
 

What are the specs on your bow and arrows, and how consistent and close are your groups at closer ranges?

RE: 3/4 inch groups ?
 

I guess another good question is how do you all measure your groups and how many arrows are you shooting?

RE: 3/4 inch groups ?
 

Me? My bow is an old rugged, reliable, PSE Edge Series 1000C lefty bow from 1996. The old round wheel, dual cam, tear-drop cable, dacron string, type of bow.

My PSE 1000C bow

Bow specs: 41" ATA, 65# draw, 65% letoff, 30" draw length.
Arrows: Easton XX75 Camo Hunter #2315, 30.5" cutlength
Tips/Broadheads: 125gr fieldtips and 125gr Thunderheads.
TM Hunter lefty arrow rest
Tru-Glo 3 pin sights (20,30,40)
Release is a new Tru-Fire Magnum wrist release

This is a very simple, common, older style bow, that is heavy but is deadly accurate. It ain't the fastest thing out there, but it is still a great shooter! [8D]

I think the arrows are 487 grains, but I'm not sure. I have no idea the speed of the bow either. All I know is that it is accurate and still tuned perfectly for me.

20 yards: Best shots with 4 XX75's ----- 1/2" groups.
30 yards: ----> 1 - 1 1/2" groups.

I tried 10 yards before and darn near robin hooded an arrow. I ripped the fletching off of the previous arrows. So, I stick with 20, 25, 30 yards when practicing.

Butch A.

RE: 3/4 inch groups ?
 

Sorry, ButchA! I should have specified that I was directing my question to KimberRuger.

PSE Edge! Good bow. Love those long ATA's and wheels; don't you? Good and efficient but uncomplicated setup too. Don't see much of that these days.

RE: 3/4 inch groups ?
 

KimberRuger,Listen to basically what everyone is talking about.Practice,form,and more practice,and you'll get there.To tell you the truth,I really hate shooting dots,can't shoot them worth a damn.But,on the 3-D,or if it's got hair and a heartbeat,it's a different story.
As far as these 3/4in groups at 20-30-40yds,well,lets just say I shoot with alot of very good shooters,and SEEING is believing...Bob

RE: 3/4 inch groups ?
 

Practice, practice, practice.....you will always shoot tighter groups the closer you get. But at 40 yards if your still shooting at least lung shots (ie. shots that are at most 2" from center I wouldn't worry a ton. The more you practice at that range the better you'll get. Also, I have a question...When your aiming at 40 yards does it seem like you can't keep the pin on the center of the target? If so it's common the target gets smaller so the pin seems to float more. Don't be freaked out by it just take time and relax during the shot. You'll be shootin 10's in no time. Then if your like me you'll get pissed if you don't shoot a 1/4" group at 40. [:@]

RE: 3/4 inch groups ?
 

Dont complain, when you start shooting 1/2" and 3/4" groups it gets expensive.You will start busting nocks and splitting arrows.3" group is good unless your shooting 3d and sometimes that can get unrealistic.Ive never even heard of a 3' tall frog...

RE: 3/4 inch groups ?
 

Bob, has pretty much hit the nail on the head here. SEEING is believing, it never ceases to amaze me how many Robin Hood's are on the web. I shoot in the top three in both and unmarked and marked yardage 3D venue and follow one simple rule; 1" per 10 yards. Now on to some more important info that will help you get better, some things just make shooting a bow easier. 1) string loop. 2) You have a round peep so get a round sight and center the sight not the pins. 3) New strings, most top shooters use custom strings for a reason (consistency). 4) Carbon arrows, nothing wrong with aluminum but they do bend over time. 5) Bets rest you can afford (MZE, Trophy taker, Drop zone to name a few) for someone pretty new I recommend the MZE. Bullet proof and not hard to set up by most good pro shops. 6) Release. Everyone has a preference, but a high end Scott release is hard to beat. After you get comfortable with a set up similar to what I've described, start shooting some of the newer bows and when it is time to upgrade you've got a head start, or wait and pick up a good used used one after this season is over. Good luck and buy some broadheads and get in your stand and shoot a big one.:)

RE: 3/4 inch groups ?
 

Practice as much as you can. Concentrate on every shot and make sure you hold the follow threw. Alot of times when i miss its because of that which causes a slight jerk so i miss the mark by a couple inches. That was my big problem and still is come every june when i break the ol bow out. Practice and concentrate on the shot. One thing which helps me is shooting at very little targets. I like to shoot at golf tees stuck in my target. I concentrate more on the lil things. Aim small miss small. Always pick a spot on a deer to concentrate on and make it small and you wont have any worries.

RE: 3/4 inch groups ?
 

Some sets of arrows are not capable of groups smaller than 3" at 30yards , or even 15 yards , spothog did a test with a dozen arrows they thought were good and they groupd a socerball sized group at twent yards , and thats out of a machine . With time and practice and alot more practice , and good arrows , proper bow fit , groups like what Roland have sugested are very good , for an acomplised archer , 1 inch per 10 yards , or 3" at 30 yards is dead on .

RE: 3/4 inch groups ?
 

vitals on a deer are 8 inches so hunt with confidence. Also do you have a kisser button to ensure that your anchor point is not floating? As already said do not grab the bow.

Just my 2 pennies

Jim

RE: 3/4 inch groups ?
 

Don't be alarmed! if you went and watched these 3/4 inch group shooters you would find out they are not repeatable. In other words they might do it once and for some reason get it in their head they are doing it all of the time. NOT. If they were, they would be pro class by now.. Just put a 3/4 inch dot on the target and watch for all arrows to be in the dot. Won't happen all that often. If they could do it regular at 20 yards they could go to Vagas and shoot a clean round (300). Well I don't see them there so the 3/4 inch group thing is usually a figment of their imgination.

Your grouping sounds good to me, I can only wish that all my arrows are in a 3.5 inch circle at 35 yards. In fact only some are and some are not.

Consistant form and consistant executation of the shot routine is condusive to accuracy.

RE: 3/4 inch groups ?
 

Practice will do it for you. Those erratic fliers are just reminders that you aren't perfect. The more you practice the tighter your groups will get.

RE: 3/4 inch groups ?
 

I haven't shot a set of arrows that were that bad yet. And that includes cheap carbons and bent aluminums. Heck I can take the nocks off arrows sometimes with severly underspined arrows. Of course I am talking about target points, not fixed heads. That's a different story.

I think someone was trying to sell thier arrows. Soccor ball sized groups out of a shooting machine seems a bit hard to believe, unless it was at some extreme yardarge or something.

Paul

RE: 3/4 inch groups ?
 

Just curious? Why are you trying to shoot 1/2"-3/4" groups? If you're like me, you have split enough arrows to know not to try and group 'em together like that. I mean, do what you want in all, but I'd consider my words of wisdom. *why do you think they have multiple target dots on most archery targets?*;)

RE: 3/4 inch groups ?
 

Ive been shooting for over 20 years and I still cant group consitantly under 3 inches at 30 yards. I can bust nocks at twenty though. Just keep practicing and be consitant. Something as minut as a change in back tension can open up a group.

RE: 3/4 inch groups ?
 

Wow - what GREAT advice !

First, C903 asked about specs:
Hoyt DynaTec
65# draw weight
28" draw length
Toxonics sights
Hoyt Quicktune 3000 Micro rest
TruFire release
Beman 400 Camo Hunter carbons

Paul L Mohr and JeramyK asked how many arrows, how I measure, and how I did at closer ranges ....

Ooops ! I've been shooting 5 arows and measuring the groups with a regular ruler. Being anal, as I tend to be, I numbered my arrows and shoot them in order, then mark each hole in my target (a revised pistol target) with the arrow number that made it.

5 shot groups are 3", 3 shot groups are only slightly better - 2 3/4" @ 30 yards. At 20 yards (I also note the range on the target) are better - 2" is typical (3 shot), although I always manage a few 4" groups.

After reading what everyone posted, I went back out and tried a few things. My "anchor point" is consistent - (no kisser button) - but my thumb knuckle rests in the same place behind my jawbone every time, and my string touches the edge of my nose and tickles my mustache the same way.

The first improvement came from DoughBoy - while I wasn't gripping the bow while aiming (I keep my hand in sort of a "V" or more acurrately a "U" shape so I don't torque the bow) - but I did find that JUST as I was releasing - probably before the arrow cleared the rest - I DID GRAB THE BOW. I was also "peeking" instead of holding the shot.

CBM SC was also on the money - TRIGGER PUNCH. I know better - I shoot guns all the time - but I was shooting my bow like a shotgun (punch/slap) instead of like a pistol or rifle (squeeze). This stems from not being able to hold as steady with the bow as I can with a firearm. I concentrated on squeezing rather than slapping, and it brought the majority of the "fliers" back where they belong.

HAZCON - you're a genius. I was shooting at a 2" center (bull). I re-modified my target so that the center is only 1" - and holy cow !

FOr the past two weeks I've been actually logging my shooting on an Excel spreadsheet - you don't know if you're winning if you're not keeping score. I mean, some days I "thought" I was doing good, and others I "thought" I wasn't - now I KNOW. (I also know that I'm averaging 82 arrows a day, and I think I have been for the past 2 months, so I've probably shot well more than 2,000 arrows).

Anyway, after following the advice from everyone here, my groups, 3 shot and 5 shot, at 20 and 30 yards, have closed up by more than 1/2 an inch !

Sorry to ramble on - but I'm pretty excited over the nearly "instant" improvement. A very SINCERE thank you to everyone for their tips, and a special thanks for all the encouragement from everyone. You guys are great !

If anyone wants the spreadsheet that use to track my shooting or the target I use for scoring and measuring, email me and I'll send it to you. Some might wonder why anyone would do this ... well, they keep score in baseball and football - don't they ? This is the only way I could think of to measure performance and improvement ......

Again, thanks to everyone for their input.

RE: 3/4 inch groups ?
 

I beg to differ - I am an expert marksman with a rifle or bow, very repeatable and I am not a pro nor have I ever competed in a tournament.

RE: 3/4 inch groups ?
 

Kimber, you sound like you've really put a lot of thought and energy into this. I'm glad you tried everyones ideas and some have worked for you.

The most important thing that I've read on this thread, which has been repeated over and over, is 3" groups at 30 yards is terrific for hunting situations so don't beat yourself up too much.

RE: 3/4 inch groups ?
 

PRACTICE!!! PRACTICE!!! PRACTICE!!! AND MORE PRACTICE!!!

It took me 10 months and over 50,000 shots to get my hoyt UIltra tec down pat. now at 20 to 30 yards i can split arrows and i have a 1 inch group at 40 to 50 yards and have the confedence to shoot at a deer that far.

it just takes lots of PRACTICE!!!!!!!!!!

RE: 3/4 inch groups ?
 

Oh, Grasshopper.... you're so impatient. I'm sure you could improve with some practice,.... like 2,000 arrows a week for the next couple years. You're at the point now where it really gets to the fine points of consistancy. Relax, release, follow through, match the arrows, ..... so many little things make a difference of an inch or two.

RE: 3/4 inch groups ?
 

Best tip I ever got: Squeeze your shoulder blades together when aiming.

2nd best tip: HOLD that followthrough till after you hear the arrow hit!!!! Don't peak!!

RE: 3/4 inch groups ?
 

I remember going to a Chuck Adams seminar years ago and everyone was impressed when he said he shot minute-of-angle "archery" groups out to 60 yards (we've come a long way since then). Since you're already doing that out to 30 yards, I would be happy with what you've accomplished to this point. There's still room for improvement, but you should be ready for deer hunting.