Speed - How do you measure it?
 

There is another post on speed. This topic needed to be discussed, not on an advertising level, but with a standards of measurement analysis.

Bow/arrow speed is a relative issue and, like many things in life, should be measured by a standard when comparing different manufacturers. They are not obligated to test methods as you would think and tend to be quite biased when setting THEIR standards.

Allow me to explain how we do our testing. We find one or two manufacturers who meet their advertised speed. There are a few, but very few. We then take another manufacturer and set the bows up exactly alike. We put the bow on our equipment and certify that they have exactly the same AMO draw length (usually we set everything at 30" for obvious reasons). You'd also be surprised at how many manufacturers label a bow 30" and it is actually 31-32". This right here is a 10 fps minimum difference. We use the same draw weight scale, same chronograph (not a cheapy, by any means - Custom Chrono Inc.), and the same arrow weighed on a grain scale that we can also calibrate. The only thing we put on the string is the same nock for all.

What this all does is to set a standard and measure everything against that standard. Now we will find that an advertised bow at 310 fps is just as fast as one that is advertised at 320 fps. How can this be??? The differential is usually found in the falsely advertised draw length or the falsely advertised speed or both.

RE: Speed - How do you measure it?
 

Len

Very good info... but here's a question:

When two different manufactureres claim to have a 30 inch draw... but only one is a true 30 inches... where does the discrepancy originate?

My theory would be the two manufacturers are measuring differently from the throat of the riser? So... one company is measuring from the back of the bow... while others are measuring draw length from the center of the rest mount.

Yes? No?

-DT

RE: Speed - How do you measure it?
 

I understand what your saying Len. It would be nice if all manufacturers would have to state actual draw length. Then state their speeds based on the exact length for a given arrow. Without some kind of regulatory standard through out the industry, it will never happen. That means its up to us as archers and dealers to educate those who aren't aware of these misleadings. I'm sure there are many shooters out there with a 26" draw wondering why their 320 fps. bow only shows 270.

RE: Speed - How do you measure it?
 

DT: The AMO draw length is defined very well. From the throat of the grip to the inside of the nock of the arrow at full draw, plus 1 3/4". If they can measure brace height (a static measurement), the draw length is just the same measurement but done at full draw - plus 1 3/4".

About 8-10 fps for every inch of incorrectly stated draw length. There's your actual 310 when you thought you were getting 320.

RE: Speed - How do you measure it?
 

Is there any other aspect of the testing method that could be manipulated to increase speed?

Then there is the whole other issue of whether or not any given production model bow needs to meet the specs advertised for the model that was tested.

I remember reading on one of the forums on the net that a manufacturer would take the best set of matched limbs, the highest quality cable/string and then polish the axles, etc.... before shooting the "test model" bow through the chronograph.

In other words, it didn't matter what the production bows shot as long as one particular bow of that model shot "X" speed then it was legal to advertise it regardless of whether or not the production models would.

RE: Speed - How do you measure it?
 

Len, why add 1 3/4"?

And -- you may not be willing to -- since this post is in design meant to "enlighten" the public at large, care to list those manufacturers who come closest to meeting their advertised speeds?

RE: Speed - How do you measure it?
 

Frank: You're absolutely right. What do you propose WE do about it? Do you think the industry would submit to an independent test lab like UL?? Doubt it!

MQ1: Good question. I'm not really sure without asking asking someone else; but, I will make a guess. When the AMO standard was originally conceived, I think the draw length had more to do with the length of arrow. By making the draw length 1 3/4" longer than your "true" draw length, this kept the broadheads beyond the hand at full draw.

Regardless, a standard can have eccentric data as long as it relates and maintains the basics of the formula throughout its use.

As far as publishing data like you asked, I'm sorry but that would be industrial/commercial suicide. My family likes to eat and sleep under a warm roof. I hope you understand. Besides that, many manufacturers have taken steps to correct this problem. It wouldn't be fair if their intentions are good or are "in process" of making changes.

RE: Speed - How do you measure it?
 

Len, I figured as much. I thought you had connections to the industry, which might keep you from publishing that info yourself.

Let's just hope that forums like this serve to enhance and educate the public's perception and awareness of the differences which can be found in such "data."

RE: Speed - How do you measure it?
 

Len, thank you again for the information. Just as I have found with many things in life, "things ain't always what the seem"! I would also like to thank you for helping me make the choice on my new bow. This Darton Rampage is got to to one of the best built bows I have ever seen, It may not be the "best" anything, but I tell you I realy think Darton made it with me in mind! It looks realy nice hanging on my shop wall too!

TAKE YOUR KIDS HUNTING AND YOU WON'T BE HUNTING FOR YOUR KIDS

RE: Speed - How do you measure it?
 

Len,

You want me to do something about it? <img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>...you are a funny guy...<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>. I am sure that littl' ol' me can make all of the dishonest manufacturers come clean about their &quot;testing&quot; procedures....<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>

Would you like me to end world hunger next? <img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>

RE: Speed - How do you measure it?
 

Don't guess, chronograph it!

RE: Speed - How do you measure it?
 

NDTerminator: We're not talking about exact speed, but relative speed. Another point of this thread is not disbelieving what speed your bow will shoot; but, to understand at what cost it may take to shoot that speed. In other words, 10 fps is not that much good to you if it directly affects your accuracy by being too long a draw for you.

Other points that have to be considered in this equation are the brace height and cam design. Some of the vary fast cam designs make for a great lower poundage 3D bow but can rip at your shoulder in a higher poundage hunting situation. Couple this with too long a draw length and you could be doing some permanent damage to your body.

I didn't post this to be critical of anyone's equipment or choices. I see these problems all the time in my shop and it gets depressing, seeing customers who really enjoy the sport, getting frustrated and developing personal injury because they're over-bowed.

Edited by - Len in Maryland on 02/20/2002 21:22:17

RE: Speed - How do you measure it?
 

5 shot: I'm sorry, I didn't realize I had helped you make a choice. I intentionally try to stay out of any decision making. I have to do that enough in my businesses. <img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>

If you drove 2 1/2 hours to get your bow, you at least could have driven a little further to say &quot;hello&quot;. Just kidding. Good luck with your new bow. May it give you years of carefree enjoyment.

RE: Speed - How do you measure it?
 

Thanks Len, I will make it up thier one day, almost had to do it sooner than latter to find a &quot;dealer&quot; that actualy stocked Dartons! My brother an I are thinking of making the trip this summer.

TAKE YOUR KIDS HUNTING AND YOU WON'T BE HUNTING FOR YOUR KIDS

RE: Speed - How do you measure it?
 

Len,
I have a couple questions AND I'm not trying to start anything with the first one. 1. Why do you have to be worried about giving some names about your findings?? I see opinions/studies that pit manufactures on the website all the time. For example,....5shots study of broadheads. BOWDACIOUS discussing the Gold Tip arrow that broke into pieces. Or the dozens of articles in the magazines that that compare/test and share the findings of particular pieces of equipment? I won't go on. I wouldn't even remotely consider NOT posting my opinion/findings on something like this. Why are YOU so concerned with sharing facts? :)

2. Why is there no information or at least some studies that measure bow &quot;noise&quot; under a controlled set of conditions? Or maybe there is and I've missed it the last 15 years in the magazines I subscribe to? Again,...not from the manufacture,...but from an independent individual just trying to collect some honest facts, then sharing them??



Edited by - twang on 02/22/2002 13:28:29

RE: Speed - How do you measure it?
 

It would be nice if there was a standard that companies would actually follow, but I don't think I've ever owned a bow I didn't check the speed for first, to see myself.

I've always been a &quot;I'll see for myself&quot; type person, and always will. Maybe I'm not a trusting soul, but to me, no one should be too shocked when their 310 IBO rated bow only gets 292.

I guess what I'm trying to say is, shoot, see for yourself, then buy.

Jeff...U.P. of Michigan.

RE: Speed - How do you measure it?
 

Len,
After thinking about this for like 5 minutes I have an idea.

Here is my opinion on some manufacturers and there reported IBO ratings:

Alpine-------Not close
Bowtech------Not close
Bear---------Not close
Browning-----Not close
Champion-----Close
CSS----------Not close
Darton-------Close
Golden Eagle-Not close
High Country-Not close
Hoyt---------Not EVEN close :)
Jennings-----Close
Martin-------Close
Matthews-----Close
McPherson----Not close
Oneida-------Not close
Parker-------Close
Pearson------Not close
Xi-----------Not close

close= +-5fps
not close= +-12fps

Disclaimer: The opinions stated in this post are simply that,...... &quot;OPINIONS&quot;. &quot;Close&quot; is a &quot;relative&quot; term based upon proximity of time, space, and relationship. NO ATTEMT to keep these factors consistent has been made.

Len, Can you rank my opinions as to being &quot;close&quot; or &quot;not close?? :) :)

RE: Speed - How do you measure it?
 

Twang, I don't want to speak for Len, but remember he makes his living selling and serviceing bows. I am sure he has his prefernces, but to publicly &quot;talk down&quot; other bows lines, some of which he may sell, is not a good thing to do when you rely on archery for your living. I know I would be the same way. Even if he doesn't sell a bow line, one of his competitors may, and you realy don't to start any wars in this industry.

TAKE YOUR KIDS HUNTING AND YOU WON'T BE HUNTING FOR YOUR KIDS

RE: Speed - How do you measure it?
 

Thank you, 5 Shot, for your understanding. In a post above I did already answer this question: &quot;As far as publishing data like you asked, I'm sorry but that would be industrial/commercial suicide. My family likes to eat and sleep under a warm roof. I hope you understand. Besides that, many manufacturers have taken steps to correct this problem. It wouldn't be fair if their intentions are good or are &quot;in process&quot; of making changes.&quot;

RE: Speed - How do you measure it?
 

Twanger, in the last 5 years I have only shot hoyt and HCA. That means ten different models between the two brands. After I set them up for an IBO comparison(thats the first thing I do) I think that every one of them was within 5fps of advertised speed. Well, let me clarify, I shoot a 29&quot; draw, so whatever speed I get, I add 10fps to the custom chrono reading for the 1&quot; of draw I give up.
I know a bunch of guys that shoot mathews, and if they are slower than advertised, it is not by much.
Hey, this is what I have found in my setups, maybe not typical. I don`t put any extras on the string when testing for speed.
1. Tied in nock set.
2. Super peep/minus aperature.
3. One eliminator button for below nock.
4. Serious tune job before hitting the chrono.
Come to think of it...that`s all I put on my hunting bow setup, too!

RE: Speed - How do you measure it?
 

What I've never been able to figure out is why AMO went to all the trouble to adopt a light arrow standard (60# @ 30&quot; w/360 grain arrow) and then keep advertising IBO speed. Doesn't make a lick of sense to me. Why didn't the idiots go ahead and adopt 70/30/350 and have done with it?

Of course, if they had to test according to an actual ASTM specification, they couldn't fudge on their draw length in order to lie about their speeds, could they...

RE: Speed - How do you measure it?
 

Twang where in your widest bud drinking dreams did you ever come up with that list!?<img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>
2 right off the bat I'd completely reverse......
Mathews......NOT EVEN close (at least ones I've owned)
BowTech.....very close
Hoyt.....close

Where did you get your findings from?.....or are you just shootin' from the hip?

I had a Mathews Ultra Max, and a Feather Max......neither of which would shoot near their advertised speed, and that was with draw lengths that measured out 3/4&quot; and 7/8&quot; OVER respectively.

All the BowTechs I've owned have shot BETTER than their minimum advertised speed at very close to true draw lengths.......in fact my Mighty Mite was a hair UNDER the stated 30&quot; and it STILL broke their rating!?

You are stating PARKER to be close?.....dude I believe Parker licenses their cam from BowTech....Am I missing something?

I DO agree with a few you listed......like HCA (MX-1 bows) not close.....and Darton CLOSE.

Were you just throwing darts at a board?<img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>

RE: Speed - How do you measure it?
 

Matt,

<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>....I don't know where you get this stuff from...<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>

I can't put together a list like Twang's because I haven't shot all of the bows in all of the companies lineups each year through a chronograph with IBO specs.

I don't think that 99% of the people in the United States can...and of that 1% (Big pro shops that carry multiple lines) I doubt that many of them would care to as long as they are making money.

I have had some bows from certain manufacturers meet (And actually exceed) their IBO specs while others from the same lineup wouldn't reach them even with an inch longer draw length!

I don't have any snappy conclusionary statements for everyone to read this time other than......don't believe everything that the manufacturers' tell you and take an open mind approach to each model...<img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>.

Edited by - PABowhntr on 02/23/2002 16:29:19

RE: Speed - How do you measure it?
 

What just happened here proved my points. One person is saying &quot;close&quot; while the other is saying &quot;not even close&quot; about the same bow company.

As I stated in the beginning of this thread &quot;Bow/arrow speed is a relative issue and, like many things in life, should be measured by a standard when comparing different manufacturers&quot;. I will even add to this statement that the speeds of bows will vary even within a manufacturer's line of bows; and, from manufacturer to Dealer to another Dealer, etc.

So the big question would always be &quot;FAST, compared to what?&quot; One person's 300 fps, using their technique and test equipment, could very well be 290 or 310 when tested by someone else.

What's the point, you may ask. One point is that speed, a totally relative issue, is used too much in this industry as a sales tool. The concern should be more on the shootability of the bows, form factors, and better education of some of those who are supposed to be guiding others.

This gets right back to statements that I made earlier: &quot;Other points that have to be considered in this equation are the brace height and cam design. Some of the vary fast cam designs make for a great lower poundage 3D bow but can rip at your shoulder in a higher poundage hunting situation. Couple this with too long a draw length and you could be doing some permanent damage to your body.

I didn't post this to be critical of anyone's equipment or choices. I see these problems all the time in my shop and it gets depressing, seeing customers who really enjoy the sport, getting frustrated and developing personal injury because they're over-bowed.&quot; And a lot of these problems relates to ADVERTISED SPEED and the apparent quest for the best(speed that is).

Now don't misunderstand me, speed quest is something that can be good. It pushes the technology to its limits and makes the manufacturers seek higher levels. Auto racing has been a Godsave for the lives of many today because of developed safety measures; but, the speeds they achieve are reserved for those who can really handle it and not for John Q. Public.

Bottom line is, don't let speed be your deciding issue on the purchase of your next bow. Choose what you can handle and choose something that you can enjoy for years without inviting personal injury.

Speed - How do you measure it? - is the title. I guess the subject goes well beyond what I originally intended.

Thank you for letting me get up on this soapbox and I hope some of you share my concerns.

RE: Speed - How do you measure it?
 

I hear a lot about Mathews &quot;extra&quot; draw length, but my Feather Max measures what it should according to the AMO standard. It's also within a few fps of advertised IBO speed, if you factor in the speed I lose with the 29&quot; cam compared to the IBO standard 30&quot;.

I don't care to challenge anyone else's findings about Mathews draw length & speed. My &quot;testing&quot; doesn't prove that Mathews is always right on the money, just that my particular bow happens to be pretty close.

RE: Speed - How do you measure it?
 

Good post, Ky Headhunter.

Len: But shouldn't speed comparisons come out with the exact same results regardless of who is performing it? I mean, as long as all the parameters of the test are kept consistent (and this may be what you're saying varies from tester to tester), it shouldn't matter who pulls the trigger. If the parameters weren't the same, then we can hardly term it an evaluation worth mentioning in terms of comparison.

RE: Speed - How do you measure it?
 

I figure speed can vary person to person. Isn't it when the arrow is traveling through the centre of the bow you get the most performance? IMO shooting release. What if that person or person's have bad form then the ocilation of the bow from torque, or string can cause slower results. Also, differences in arrow make up, aluminum vs carbon. Even @ the same weights and spine, the carbon will travel faster then the aluminum. Why? because its very simple engineering the straighter the line of travel the faster the exelleration and probably top speed. While the aluminum arrow's tail is kicking out its most definetly losing speed and the carbon's straighter flight affords it more speed. Like Len has said, relative issue. Im not a super physics genius, but its easy to see differences that may cause speed variances. I shoot arrows from my recurve, maybe going 180-190's area. When I shoot a bow doing 230 or even 250 its like greased lightning to me, geez I can't imagine myself shooting 270's-80's. I just figured I would throw in my few small change, thoughts. Good shooting all.
Dylan

>>>>--------o-->

RE: Speed - How do you measure it?
 

MQ1shooter: Would you really trust your local gas station in giving you 1 gallon of gas and not short-changing you 10% at a time??? It's like asking the fox to guard the chicken coup.

I'm definitely believe that a majority of manufacturers are very honest. I think most of them are. The problem, however, it that without standards (as you have at the gas pumps) you open up the possibility for the &quot;bad guys&quot; to rob and cheat.

Although it's done this way right now and will continue, allowing manufacturers to TELL YOU what their bows will do, as far as speed, is like giving all your money to a stranger to invest. So many expensive, and some inexpensive items, that we purchase on a daily basis are controlled by standards like US Dept. of Standards, UL, US Weights and Measures (which I think may be part of US Dept. of Standards), US Food and Health, Surgeon General's Office, etc., etc., etc.

What you're asking is if everyone sends their arrow weighing equipment in for standards checking, is their chronograph calibrated and to what standard, are they using the same style arrow, is their bow scale calibrated, is the bow they actually test arbitrarily pulled from a production line or selected as the &quot;best&quot; of a run. Do they polish the axles, select a string that has less strands for more speed, set the draw length 1/4, 1/2 or 1&quot; longer than what it should be????

Who is performing the test makes all the difference in the world. You said it best in your last sentence: &quot;If the parameters weren't the same, then we can hardly term it an evaluation worth mentioning in terms of comparison&quot;.

RE: Speed - How do you measure it?
 

I was waiting for that response...

Sadly... so many bows are sold each day to unaware, relatively new buyers who will never be able to reach advertised speeds because of their 27 inch draw length.


-DT

RE: Speed - How do you measure it?
 

Len,

I whole-heartedly agree with your assertion that too many manufacturers would be (are?) tempted to &quot;cook the books&quot; when obtaining this data.

My point -- or question, really -- was about finding differences using the same equipment, not different &quot;specimens&quot; of the same model.

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote<font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>One person's 300 fps, using their technique and test equipment, could very well be 290 or 310 when tested by someone else. <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>

This is what I thought you were referring to: testing the same equipment. I now see you were talking about manipulating the same type of equipment to better suit each manufacturers' wishes and goals.

Make sense? <img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>

RE: Speed - How do you measure it?
 

Hey Matt,
Your got me part right buddy. I was shooting from the hip for sure! <img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle> I was at work when I posted that list so ole Budweiser didn't contribute!!....and a good thing for that HUH?! :)

Len, no offense meant and I understand. I would agree that there are so many variables that its really hard to say 100% about any specific bow manufacturer. Most make just to many bows with to many options that it would probably be a nightmare to try and keep straight anyway.

I am curious though if anyone has found a bow (no names necessary) that has been WAY outa the IBO spec. Like say 20 fps low. I would think that within 10 fps probably is within the statistical error when looking at something like this anyway,...so I wouldn't necessarily knock a bow if it was less than IBO for that amount. BUT...20FPS or greater?!! Part of that difference is probably real!

Another part of my question (question #2)in my origional post got lost. Let me try again. :):)

2. Why is there no information or at least some studies that measure bow &quot;noise&quot; under a controlled set of conditions? Or maybe there is and I've missed it the last 15 years in the magazines I subscribe to? Again,...not from the manufacture,...but from an independent individual just trying to collect some honest facts, then sharing them?? Even from the manufacturer!! Wouldn't that be a great selling point!! For me it would rank at the top of the list in selling points.