Spikes, dinks and QDM
 

I've always hated spikes, call it an obsession, but I get pissed when I see a spike. I always held the belief that spikes should be killed. I then read a study by Dr. Harry Jacobson, the world famous deer biologist from Mississippi State University who "grew" a B&C buck that was a first year spike. Then studies followed that showed that being a spike first year had no relation to future antler size. Those studies basically changed the way QDM was performed in Mississippi. I agree that young spikes, 3pts etc can develop to be a nice bucks. But, this thinking has also led to us letting some inferior deer survive IMO. I'm starting to see an abundance of 130-150lb spikes 3pts, etc. While these deer may become a decent deer someday, they will never IMO become a trophy.

What are you thoughts on this topic? At what point(weight/age class) do you decide that a spike or small buck will not meet the potential you are looking for?

RE: Spikes, dinks and QDM
 

If he's a couple years old or older...and still a spike, he's probably a scrub that won't amount to much.
However...IMO, the majority of the spikes out there do not fall into this catagory. They are more likely late born deer, that have used up all their energy developing thier bodies...leaving little left for their first set of antlers. This is very common in areas with overpopulation, and skewed breeding periods.
Of course, we don't know for sure if those older spikes will ever amount to much, and once you shoot him...he'll never get any bigger.

RE: Spikes, dinks and QDM
 

I guess that depends on what your definition of a trophy is now doesn't it? In my neck of the woods, despite recent changes in the deer program, an eight pointer of just about any size is considered a trophy locally though I am sure there are some real brutes as well.

I guess I fall into the camp that believes a spike could definitely become a trophy at some point.

RE: Spikes, dinks and QDM
 

I agree..

I see lots of spikes where I hunt. Yet most of the mature deer I see have decent head gear.

Since I do not shoot Trad..........I let em walk........[:-][:-]:D[8D]

RE: Spikes, dinks and QDM
 

FOTFLMAO:D:D:D


Seriously though, a lot of the mature deer I see do not have good head gear. We kill a bunch of 4 1/2 year old deer that wouldn't even make the P&Y minimum.... We have the nutrition, the age, but the genetics are all screwed up in many areas of my state.

Also, we have a serious problem with "cull" bucks.

RE: Spikes, dinks and QDM
 

If you are practicing QDM you should pass on them unless they are mature, right???!!! Isn't that what QDM is all about? Let them age, watch them, get to know them, you will see the deer's individual potential then.

RE: Spikes, dinks and QDM
 

No, if they do not have trophy potential, they should immediatley be killed.

RE: Spikes, dinks and QDM
 

How do you know if they have "trophy potential" until they get mature and show you?[&:]

RE: Spikes, dinks and QDM
 

How do you know they don't have trophy potential?

An analogy........our cat was by far the runt of the litter, I guess that is why my wife and kids picked him when the lady was giving kittens away. He has grown up to be much bigger and healthier than the other cats from that litter. At 5 yrs. old, I would say he is a trophy cat.;)

RE: Spikes, dinks and QDM
 

My property grows some huge bucks, however, because it is so thick, the yearling bucks rarely disperse, so we have an inbreeding problem. Bucks with antlers that grow down, bucks with 8 - 10 points and a total of about 5" p&y, and we have a few gigantic 175 - 200 lbs spikes and 4 points.

Here is a 3.5 year old 165 lb 10 point.


and a 7.5 year old 240 lb 8 point.


and another of the 8.


and a giant 4 point from our property.



ps, excuse the picture quality..el cheapo digital.

RE: Spikes, dinks and QDM
 

Genetics are an underlying factor to antler growth no doubt, however maturity level is the main factor in determining his potential. Other factors such as food, water, stress, late births, etc all have impacts on year to year growth. I have seen some pretty small 2 years old grow some decent headgear in a year or 2. If at 3-4 they are still lagging then you should think about harvesting them. If your worried about immature or inferior bucks breeding you have a choice, that is harvest more does. If you bring the doe to buck ratio in line it will allow more mature bucks to do the lion share, thus eliminating your worry. QDM is more than allowing trophies to sprout it is to also create balance on all sides.

RE: Spikes, dinks and QDM
 

At some point you have to draw a line and say a buck should be x by this age/weight...

Let me give you an example. Back in the mid 80's I was in camp that practiced QDM. We were not killing the type of deer we wanted, so the biologist suggested we stop killing bucks for 2 years and only kill spikes. We killed every spike we could find, and we wiped them out. The following 5-6 years were unbelievable. We killed some monster bucks and a bunch of them, and not just bucks that were allowed to age during those 2 years of spike killing. We were 3 1/2 olds 150 class bucks, which had never been done before. Around that time game biologists changed their minds on killing spikes and we stopped. The hunting slowly got worse and eventually we were right back to where we started, with fully mature bucks maxing out at 120-130.

When I say spike, I don not mean buttons, we let all button bucks grow. I am talking 1 1/2 year old spikes and older. IMO there is a correlation between spikes and future antler size, just based on my in the field observations. There is no doubt that some spikes do reach trophy pontential, but I believe far more do not.

With that said, what would make the most sense, just wing it and hope they reach potential. Or should you cull the older spikes to open up more food and breeding for mature bucks.

And yes, these small(cull) bucks will breed does, I've seen it with my own eyes. In a perfect world, the most dominate buck in the area will show up to breed when she is ready, but that does not happen in many areas. In fact, most of breeding that I have seen are not large mature bucks, and we do have them. Our doe numbers are in check, according to biologists.

RE: Spikes, dinks and QDM
 

I would say let the spikes reach 2&1/2, and then if they are not up to par, consider taking them. But the 1& 1/2 year olds, it is just too early to tell.IMO.

RE: Spikes, dinks and QDM
 

2002 - we must have seen 5 different spikes. But our b/d ratio is way out of whack so we let them all go. We took 10 does & 1 buck in 2002. The neighbors with 400acres took 15 does and 3 bucks in 2002.

2003 - we saw 1 spike. On our game cam we ID'd the same little spiker BUT now we have 9 different bucks on game cam AFTER the season. We took only 4 does this year. The neighbors took 14 does. We took 2 bucks one 120, one 140 class. Good bucks.

All of our bucks on the game cams are 6 pointers or better. No monsters but just thinking about that nice 8 pointer next year makes me drool!

If we had take out all of the spikes in 2002 would we have any nice 6-8 pointers this year? NOPE. I belive that your b/d ratio will impact the antler growth also. As we saw this year with the lack of spikes & more small 6 pointers.

I would not go so far as to "remove" bucks from the gene pool just because they are a little inferior thier first year. There are just toooo many variables as to why they may have poor growth.

My 1st wife use to breed horses. You would think that an awsome stallion would produce awsome colts. not always true. While it was likely, the combination of mare and stallion was the key. I belive that really big bucks need does that are also big buck producers. I acctually had a stud/mare combo that produced awsome colts but terrible fillys? Neither of the two parrents were anything special. Just a good combo.

RE: Spikes, dinks and QDM
 

I've always thought that unless you know the buck is more than a 1 1/2 spike...you almost have to let him go. Even if that yearling spike doesn't grow up to be something special...you would have never known if you shot him early on.

RE: Spikes, dinks and QDM
 

If he's only 1.5, let him walk, give him a chance to grow. By 2.5 and 3.5 you should have a decent indication if he is gonna produce head gear that are up to your expectations.

Case in point, this last fall, I have one spot that I hunt that had a big bodied bruiser of a buck working an area. He had short short tines for a 5x5 and was later aged at 3.5 after he was harvested and I estimated him to be this age before he was harvested. This is on public land but the last thing I wanted him doing was breeding any more does in my hunting area. I rattle him in for my father in law and he took him, he was tickled to have the meat and he could care less about the rack so it worked out good for both of us.

Shed

RE: Spikes, dinks and QDM
 

What are you trying to say? :D

RE: Spikes, dinks and QDM
 

WELL HERE'S HOW THE GENETICS GOES IN MY AREA. I HARVESTED THIS 6 POINTER IN 2002. HE WAS AGED AT 1 1/2 HE FIELD DRESSED AT 175 LBS.

RE: Spikes, dinks and QDM
 

AND HERE'S THE DEER I HARVESTED OFF THE SAME PROPERTY IN 2003. HE'S A 2 1/2 YEAR OLD 9 POINTER AND FIELD DRESSED AT 185.

RE: Spikes, dinks and QDM
 

I DO BELIEVE THAT IF THESE TWO DEER HAD BEEN LEFT ALONE AND NOT HARVESTED THAT THEY PROBABLY WOULD HAVE SCORED P&Y IF NOT B&C.

RE: Spikes, dinks and QDM
 

Nice bucks there KYBOWMAN. THey both would have been gigantic as mature bucks, you got some good growth potential there.

Here's my take on things. The more fertile an area, with good genetics, a balanced herd and decent winters is probably not going to have many spikes. And most certainly if you get one that's older than 1.5 and still a spike, shoot it. So-so deer habitat places with out of balance herds, will probably have more spikes, but i still think there are potential for them to grow into decent bucks as things progress.

RE: Spikes, dinks and QDM
 

THANKS RYBO, FUNNY THING IS I HAVE NEVER SEEN A SPIKE IN MY AREA. MOST OF THE SMALL BUCKS IN MY AREA ARE AT LEAST A FOUR POINT OR BETTER. I AGREE WITH YOU WHEN YOU SAY THAT IF A BUCK IS STILL A SPIKE AFTER 2 1/2 YOU SHOULD DEFINATELY TAKE HIM. IN MY AREA THE BUCK TO DOE RATIO IS ABOUT 1 BUCK FOR EVERY 2 DOES. THE WEIRD THING IS THAT I HAVE ONLY SEEN 1 P&Y BUCK SINCE I'VE BEEN HUNTING THERE. THE BIG BOYS ARE THERE THEY JUST KNOW WHERE TO BE WHEN FALL STARTS COMING ON.:D

RE: Spikes, dinks and QDM
 

HERE'S ANOTHER PIC OF A BUCK TAKEN IN THE SAME GENERAL AREA THAT I HUNT.

RE: Spikes, dinks and QDM
 

HERE'S ONE THAT WAS TAKEN ON FORT KNOX. I HAVEN'T HUNTED THERE YET BUT I PLAN ON IT THIS YEAR.

RE: Spikes, dinks and QDM
 

HERE'S THAT SAME BUCK. HE GROSSED 198 AND NETTED 186.

RE: Spikes, dinks and QDM
 

As a wildlife manager on a couple of ranches in south Texas, my job is to make the land produce big mature bucks year after year.

I will not allow spikes that are 1 1/2 years old to be shot. Mainly because, at 1 1/2 bucks do Very little breeding, so the chances of them passing there genes to future generations is very slim. But if a spike is older then 1 1/2, then we kill it.

Once a buck gets to 2 1/2, if he has 4 points or less, we kill it. Once a buck gets to 3 1/2, if he has 6 points or less, we kill it. And any bucks that are 4 1/2 or older, and have 8 or less points or that scores less then 130", then we shoot it. We consider them "cull" or "management" bucks.

As far as spikes go. Most bucks that produce spike antlers there first year, will grow bigger racks with more points as they get older. The only problem is that he will never grow the same size of rack as a different buck that is the same age, but who did not have spikes as his first set of antlers. What I'm trying to say is that a 1 1/2 year old spike will never be as big of a trophy as a 1 1/2 year old 4,6,8 pointer.

I guess the trophy is in the eye of the hunter. But on the ranches I manage, a buck is not a trophy unless he is 160" or better. Most of the hunters that hunt on the ranches, will not pull the trigger unless the buck scores 160" or more.



As far as that 190" typical buck that was killed on Fort Knox, that is a beatiful buck. We had 4 typical bucks killed this year off of the ranches that I manage, that scored 170" or better. The biggest was a perfect 12 point that finished out at 182", hes going in the B&C book. But anyway, it seems like all military bases produce HUGE bucks year after year, and the reason why is because they receive very little hunting pressure. On the NASA space center land in Houston, there is a BIG perfect 10 point buck that is running around that will score close to 190. But there is no hunting allowed out there.

RE: Spikes, dinks and QDM
 

HIGHRACK, DO YOU HAVE A LINK TO THE RANCH THAT YOU MANAGE I HAVE ALWAYS WANTED TO GET OUT TO TEXAS TO TAKE A BIG BRUISER.

RE: Spikes, dinks and QDM
 

Most of the ranches that I manage only allow family and friends to hunt. There is one ranch that I manage that sells hunts, but we dont have a website because the hunts are offered on a very limited basis and most of the time we are book up to 2 years in advance.

However, I do know alot of ranches down here that offer hunts. They charge any where from $100 a day, to $20,000 for a 5 day hunt lol. So theres a hunt for every bodies budget.

If you want me to provide some websites, then please tell me what area you would like to hunt (ex. south texas, central texas) , tell me what kind of weapon you want to use, and what your budget is. I'll be more then happy to help. Happy hunting.

RE: Spikes, dinks and QDM
 

I WOULD LIKE TO GO TO SOUTH TEXAS, EITHER BOW OR RIFLE. THANKS FOR YOUR TIME MAN I APPRECIATE IT.

RE: Spikes, dinks and QDM
 

ROTFLMAO at JRW:D:D