quality deer management?
 

Why is it considered good quality deer management to harvest does to achieve a 1:1 doe buck ratio? It would seem to me as long as you do allow bucks to reach their potential, that is good management. All you are doing by taking does is limiting the total number of deer. Especially in areas with relatively mild winters and abundant forage the overall herd size is not an issue other than as a possible nuisance which is a totally different issue than quality deer management.

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RE: quality deer management?
 

That was a lot more than I expected and I am gratefull for your time. I have 3 areas that I deer hunt on and they are vastly different. The first is a 150 acres in farm country. The area is heavily hunted and what I mostly see during bow season are does, fawns and yearly to 2 year old bucks. I do have trouble with tresspassers or drive by shooters. I usually find the remains of a deer or 2 after each season. It is also an area with heavy cover where the deer tend to yard up during severe weather conditions. The second area that I bow hunt is approximately 2000 acres of pasture with a nice creek and wooded hill sides. The owner allows 2 of us to bow hunt and 2 others to rifle hunt. From my observations during the early bow season there are considerably more does than bucks, with observations of bucks picking up considerably during the rut in November. We have always taken an adult doe each and been fairly selective on any bucks we take. Many years we have not shot any bucks. Surrounding areas are similar to this area except the landowner on the area we hunt likes to clear trees and brush while the surrounding ranches have been left alone and appear to me to have better habitat at this time. The third area I hunt is basically my rifle hunting area. It is 400 acres adjacent to a large track of public hunting area. The property is basically pasture with timbered draws. We see very few bucks and we generally take one or two does a year off of it. I have owned this property for 15 years and the total number of bucks taken has been approximately 5. We do have a food plot which has been milo but this year we changed to winter wheat. There are alot of oak trees which on a good year provide acorns. The pasture is not good and has quite a bit of brush and weeds. We have a lot of sericea lespedeza which we have tried to no avail to control. Locally they feel we should do everything we can to control or eliminate it. I am under the impression that sericea is generally a good wildlife habitat, any comments. Let me know what you think about these three circumstances. I look forward to your imput.

RE: quality deer management?
 

alloutdoors, nice job explaining! I doubt it could have been said better by anyone, even Al Brothers himself. Where are you from in NY?

RE: quality deer management?
 

Alloutdoors: Just one more question on what you consider QDM. Are you attempting to harvest mature deer only in both bucks and does? If so how do you age either one on the hoof other than general size?

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RE: quality deer management?
 

alloutdoors

I don't want you to get bigheaded or anything, but that was one of the best responses I ever seen on a website reguarding QDM. If you don't mind, I am going to copy some of your responses and use them myself from time to time. I'll give you credit.

RE: quality deer management?
 

alloutdoors,

Niiice!! Just what we need, an intelligent and well written response from an informed member of this forum to a legitimate query posted by an interested hunter. Wish all the posts went this way. Kudos to you...an interesting post. I'm happy to hear that such a study is well underway in a neighboring state.

If you hunt, pppleaaase don't tell us what type of equipment you use... ;)

RE: quality deer management?
 

That is some good info, Alloutdoors. I agree with Cman that it really is a nice change having a legitimate question and a well-written and informative response that we can all benefit from. I'm planning to save that info for future reference too.
I also found the info on aging bucks using some general rack "look-fors" to be pretty interesting.
Thanks! :)

RE: quality deer management?
 

alloutdoors,

That was an impressive response indeed. I appreciate you taking the time to share your knowledge. I also feel like it's one of the best responses that I have ever read on this forum. I have a question though. I have heard many other people mention how bucks get a Roman nose, sagging jowels, their neck meets their chest, and they start to get sway back as they get 4 years and older. Do you consider these to be accurate ways to judge the age of a deer on the hoof? I realize these would be next to impossible to judge on a deer in a skinning rack but how about on the hoof? Thanks

RE: quality deer management?
 

alloutdoors,

I agree with everyone else that was an excellent reply. Would your ageing techniques apply in the South where deer tend to be a lot smaller?
the pictures you posted of the 2 1/2 year old bucks would be considered a real trophy in my area.

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RE: quality deer management?
 

alloutdoors, I am just west of you in the Rochester area. Shoot me an email sometime I would really like to talk to you. [email protected] Maybe we could swap some ideas as we are in similar areas and as it seems in similar situations.
Thanks. Tim Kent

RE: quality deer management?
 

Alloutdoors, I've got one little point to make counter to what you're saying. Realistically, a 1:1 ratio of bucks to does or bulls to cows (if we're talking elk) is very rarely achieved even in a nonhunted population. Most wild ungulate populations will arrive, sans hunting, at a ratio between 4 and 8 males per 10 females. First reason, in fact, it is rather more common for the birth ratios to favor females over males. (For instance, here in western MT, for the past decade, elk fetus studies have shown a 38:62 ratio of males to females.) It's been shown scientifically that deer populations under carrying capacity will spit out more does than bucks in the fawn population, and that populations over carrying capacity will spit out more bucks than does. Secondly, males suffer a greatly higher natural mortality rate than females even without hunting. This extra mortality largely rises from the fact that the rut is pushed up against winter, so the males are worn to a frazzle going into winter. Secondly, as the male:female ratio rises toward 1:1, you can get significant battle mortality during the rut.

I'm not at all opposed to QDM, but we need to understand that a true 1:1 ratio is really not natural. Thus, it may be impossible to attain, and may be undesirable to attain.

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RE: quality deer management?
 

I extremely agree with all others....that your explanation of QDM is second to none. I've read many, many articles of the subject and have learned less than what I've just read. Great response!!

One more thing that I'd like to add, please correct me if I'm wrong, that I don't think you posted or maybe I missed it......Is that by having a ratio that is at or near 1:1, along with the rut being a bit earlier and more intense....the bigger, "more dominant" bucks will be doing the majority of the breeding. Thus, passing on probably the best genes out in the woods. Less doe means that the insubordinate(sp?) bucks will have less of a chance to breed doe. Adding to the point of having or creating a better/stronger deer herd.

I hope that I explained that well enough.

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RE: quality deer management?
 

Excellent answer on the gentics and breeding and not dependent on age. Great info. Alloutdoors.

RE: quality deer management?
 

In response, let me reiterate that I'm not trying to be argumentative. That said, you can sit down with a pen and paper and do age structure charts just for fun. I do it during the winter when I'm bored. Without going into too many details, it's actually not that difficult to have a 40:100 ratio in a "natural" population. (The range I gave ,4 to 8 per 10, was meant to cover the ranges I have seen in various ungulate studies.) Given the 38:62 ratio I gave for elk, you can get an adult ratio of 40:100 with 30% mortality in females and 50% mortality in males. Granted 40:100 is on the extreme end, but you'll see it in the science. Conversely, off the top of my head I can remember no studies citing 1:1 ratios in natural unhunted populations.

My main point is that we humans have a very mixed record at "improving" on nature's design. Nature must have had a reason for "setting" sex ratios the way they are (i.e. something less than 1:1). I personally know one of those people down in Texas who have there deer fenced in, and they aim for 2:1 ratios, and it really bothers me on multiple levels - the fences and the tampering with nature. If you say 1:1, the next guy's apt to think something like, "If 1:1 is good, then 1.5:1 would be better", and so on. To close this, it's not hard to imagine that as you get to the 1:1 point and beyond, you make a herd that might be more vulnerable to sudden disruptions (i.e. less able to recover from tough winters or disease outbreaks or whatever).

RE: quality deer management?
 

To age deer on the hoof can be pretty difficult there are some articles out that you can read, VCR tapes are great also. I have one that is called judging trophy whitetails. the first thing I do is forget about the Horn's they get in the way of aging. You should concentrate on the body shape. very simply put. I'm 48 years old, my son is 26 you stand us up next to each other with our shirts off and our faces covered it ain't hard to figure who the old guy is.

RE: quality deer management?
 

Good point Holepuncher, but I'll bet your hairlines could tell a story about your ages too!

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