The Facts
 

All of us on this board want to be prepared for confrontations with PETA-type wackos as well as those on the fence. I would like the board to put a link to a set of "talking points" that we can all use as ammunition or to sway the fence sitters. Those who know the facts, please post them here and maybe someone can compile them and have a link like the faq's or something so we present a united front. I think that it would be very helpful for all of us. I don't care if you cut and paste from a book or other web site. Let's just put the necessary facts all in one place for all of us.

RE: The Facts
 

Thats a great idea... i don't have any great stingers so i would like to hear some good facts too.

RE: The Facts
 

Just tell them that if God had not intended us to hunt and eat them then he would not have made them out of meat.

RE: The Facts
 

He wouldn't have given us canine teeth either.

That's an awesome idea. I would love to see that too. The more ammo we have the better fight we can uphold.

RE: The Facts
 

The first talking point.

Are you a vegetatrian? If not they have no leg to stand on.

RE: The Facts
 

Forget about the vegetarian because nearly all vegetarians use some kind of animal products. They just don't eat it. Ask them if they are vegan. These guys are the real hard core "I won't use anything that uses animals" people.

Most folks would be really surprised at what products actually use animal products. Like their make up that they use every day to look pretty.

Here is a short list of some products that use animal by-products.

anything made of plastic like combs, brushes, tooth brushes, the computer we and they are typing on, etc....
tooth paste
heart valves that save lives, a majority of them come from pigs
shirt buttons
shoes
ice cream
yogurt
chewing gum
marshmellows
drugs (the legal kind)
cosmetics
lotion
candles
walpaper
glues
glass
car tires
antifreeze
oil
paint
dog and cat food

I'll see if I can find some more later.

RE: The Facts
 

I like to ask if they walk everywhere, or if they use a vehicle. If they indicate that they drive a vehicle, I ask how they manage to get from Point A to Point B without slaughtering thousands of insects, on their windshield. Who are they to say that an insect's life is worth less than that of a deer, or chicken, or mink... whatever? :)

RE: The Facts
 

Don't have any snappy comebacks, but I remember a quote from somebody. "I didn't spend all these years at the top of the food chain just to become a vegetarian"

RE: The Facts
 

Good points here. The vegetarians drive me nuts too and I will use the animal by-product info!

What about plants? They are living and many have to be killed obviously to eat them! So, kill the plants = no big deal, but kill the cute little deer = bad? I don't get it? Kill the insects while driving, "well I didn't do that intentionaly?" I say, well, you acknowledged it and didn't do anything with it. What use did you get out of the corpse of that bug after seeing it had died in vain???? These wackos just don't make any sense at all to me.

I need to go find some duct tape now to make sure my head doesn't explode!

TBO

RE: The Facts
 

Another little tid bit.

How many animals like snakes, mice, small birds, and millions of insects get to die under the wheels and blades of the combines and tractors that are used to harvest the vegetables that they eat? How many animals and insects die because of the insectacides that are used.

RE: The Facts
 

hey guys, great ideas! if yall could gather a good bit of info and lists up for me then id love to put it together in a website and post the link everywhere i can!
raim

RE: The Facts
 

http://www.rendermagazine.com/Februa...echTopics.html

RE: The Facts
 

Ask if they believe what is written in the most widely published book in the world; the Bible. As if they believe what God tells us. Ask if they are a Christian.

It takes you all the way to the 26 verse of the Bible to find out that God gave man "dominion" over the animals. Dominion means sovereign power, as in "we can do anything we want to" but it also implies the responsibility to manage properly. It is one of the most powerful arguments you can use.

The Bible in facts list most of the antlered and horned animals of the Middle East as being edible, and it talks about hunting.

If you want particulars let me know and I'll put something together. Meanwhile I hope to see you on the "T.R.'s Tips" board here at Hunting.Net.

May God bless you and yours during this HOLY day season, and good hunting,


T.R.

RE: The Facts
 

I'm not just talking about snappy comebacks and one-liners. We need the guys who have done all the reading and studying to chime in and give us the science behind hunting. I'm talking about population control, carrying capacity, doe-to-buck ratios, number of animals killed by vehicles, $ amounts the farmers are losing to deer overbrowsing. Those are the facts we need to have in our arsenal to persuade and combat the fence-sitters and the wackos.

RE: The Facts
 

Many of those things are going to vary by state. So you can't make generalizations on some of them, But, you should be able to get a lot of that information easily, by contacting your state deer biologist or researcher. They are the ones who should have all the numbers, answers and explanations.

If you really want to understand all of this read the book Ecology and Management of White-tailed Deer, published by Stackpole. Once you have a thorough understanding of deer biology, physiology, behavior and different management techniques you can apply what you have learned to how deer are managed in your state. Then you can present the facts to the anti's.

The problem is many anti's don't care about or understand deer management. Many of them base their anti-hunting sentiments on "thou shalt not kill" the "suffering aspect" and the Bambi syndrome, also known as "they're so cute." Most of them refuse to listen to science and logic, so it seldom works.

The best thing for hunters to do is get off their butts, band together, lobby, vote, and contact their legislators like the anti's do. It is often difficult to educate or change an anti's mind, one thing you can do is FIGHT them at the polls and in the courts. This is unfortunate, but true.

So the question is, how many people here belong to a pro-hunting organization, and support it with money, volunteer work, and have actually called or written their legislators? I'm not looking for a poll here, this is just a gut check.

T.R.

RE: The Facts
 

Thanks T.R.! Those are some very good points. Your insight is not only inspiring, but also positive and in good taste. May God bless you and yours during this Christmas season!

TBO

RE: The Facts
 

yes good idea and have the amounts available that sportspersons contribute to Woldlife and what PETA contributes, bet theirs is zero!

RE: The Facts
 

You're welcome. I'm just trying to do my part as a hunter, writer, speaker.

MayGod bless all of you this HOLY day season,

T.R.

RE: The Facts
 

The ANTI's don't have a leg to stand on. The problem is that they don't have any common sense. Around the 1900's it was the conservative sportsman that lobbied to have the deer seasons closed since the population was estimated to be below 500,000. It was the conservative sportsman that implemented a tax on themselves to help the critters. It was called the Pittman and Robinson Act. Not sure the year that happened but it was a long time ago. We as sportsman have learnned from our elders and our own trial and error. We need to educate and get our youngsters involved. I think archery should be a class taught in grade school all the way through university.

RE: The Facts
 

I just gave a speech about 2 weeks ago on hunting. Here's a few of the key points and facts I pulled out of my outline.

Introduction

I. Violent, unnecessary, slaughtered, maimed, decimating, suffering, outraged, and destructive and all words used in the People for the Ethical Treatment of Animal's (PETA's) Hunting fact sheet found at (Peta.org)

II. It's pretty clear that powerful and descriptive words like these are used in order to trigger a person's emotional responses naturally associated with that word, not provoke rational thinking. In fact, the same website promotes animal rights activists to "spread deer repellent or human hair (from barber shops) near hunting areas" in order to deter hunting. While in many states, including Illinois, that is a violation of Hunter Interference Prohibition Acts, thus making it illegal.

III. Contrary to many people's beliefs, hunting is not a violent, destructive, or unnecessary sport. Hunting has been a part of our heritage for hundreds of years and it plays many vital roles in our society today, despite the abundance of negative press it receives from animal rights groups.

IV. Tonight I will educate you on the roles hunting plays not just through it's environmental impacts, but through the impact upon the people who enjoy an activity as old as the country we live in.

a. 23, 645 deer hit by cars in IL in 2001 (il.dnr)
b. 45, 000 deer hit by cars in WI in 2002 (wis.dnr)

Crop/Environmental Damage
a.According to the article Controlling Deer Damage found at Missouri.edu, " Hunting programs are among the most effective damage control techniques" (aces.edu)

D. Giving back to the community/environment.
1. Proceeds from sales go to help environmental programs
a. A portion of all sales of hunting licenses and equipment goes to sponsor government programs to conserve, protect, and restore wildlife habitat.

b. In 2001, people spent 1.9 billion dollars on wildlife recreational activities. Expenses included gear, food, lodging, and licenses. (census.gov)

c. Each year, nearly $200 million in hunters' federal excise taxes are distributed to State agencies to support wildlife management programs, the purchase of lands open to hunters, and hunter education and safety classes. (fws.gov)

2. Farmers and Hunters Feeding the Hungry
a. 11.2 million meals donated since 1997 (fhfh.org)

I have more but they're at home in a text document I was using for notes. Those are just the ones I used in my speech.

RE: The Facts
 

Compare the health of the wild life in our country as opposed to countrys in Europe where hunting is restricted or illegal.

Also how much money has the Pittman Robertson fund raised for habbitat as compaired to the money anti everything groups have raised.

I if wasn't for sportsmen the only wildlife habitat we would have in this nation would be city zoos.

RE: The Facts
 

Doe Culler,

The anti's don't need a leg to stand on, all they need is an uniformed public, sympathy and a united lobbying front, and in many cases they are way ahead of hunters.

It's not archery that should be taught in schools, it is sound management practices for all renewable resources, plants and animals.


Jzarr,

I like your style, your information, and espceially your willingness to put it on the line. You can hunt with me anytime, or speak WITH or FOR me at any seminar I do.

Keep up the good work, the rest of you follow this example.

God bless all of you, and get off your butts and fight for YOUR rights,

T.R.

RE: The Facts
 

T.R.,

Did you mean along with archery teach management practices on renewable resources, or do not teach archery in schools?

RE: The Facts
 

I meant teach them both, along with gun safety, because guns are being used to kill others, not bows. But if it comes down to one course, it should be management of renewable resources, with hunting as one of the management tools for animals.

A renewable resources management course probably has a better chance of getting into many schools, due to anti hunting and anti-weapon sentiments, and due to lower costs involved, and the possbible need for additional insurance.

As a side note:

Deer car/accidents averaged $1,500 per vehicle in Eagan, MN a few years ago. I'm sure it is higher now, and all of us pay higher premium rates because of it.

The NSSF stated that whitetail hunters spent an average of $1,500 per hunter in incidentals per year (gas, food, groceries, lodging etc). Hunting of any kind is a big boost to the economy of many rural areas each year.

RE: The Facts
 

Almost brings a tear to your eye doesn't it.

Research and other information has proven that without hunting whitetail deer thousands more people would lose their lives due to vehicle collisions. That alone is to justify what we do.

T.R. and JZarr,

You should start your own web sites. Your informatin is great.

Good Hunting

RE: The Facts
 

Hardluck,

I don't know if that was a plug or not. But, if you didn't know, I am the author of the "T.R.'s Tips" forum here at Hunting.Net. You might like it, we have lots of
Christian threads. I do have a website.

T.R.


Jzarr,

He's right, but w3ebsites are slightly expensive, and terribly time consuming.

T.R.