Slide Hammer, impact enhancment
07-26-2013, 05:13 AM
#11
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: South Dakota
Posts: 1,035
I had to make an account to correct all of you I was actually searching for gun slide hammers...wierd. First off you all are very wrong on penetration. You CANNOT measure penetration. Impossible. Now Arrow flight stabilization sure, secondary impact obviously, but do you really need that secondary impact? I would like to try this thing out what stores are they going to be in?
Edit: As far as bone....I mean lets get real here no way. Although I didn't see the op say it penetrates bone I saw he wrote "you don't know what it does to bone as you have not used it"
Edit: As far as bone....I mean lets get real here no way. Although I didn't see the op say it penetrates bone I saw he wrote "you don't know what it does to bone as you have not used it"
I don't think this add-on would really add that much, but I don't think you can say that you CANNOT measure penetration.
07-26-2013, 02:13 PM
#12
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Middletown PA United States
Posts: 3,625
It appears that this device fits into the nock or is assembled that way. If you want to talk about arrow stabilization then it needs to be explained further. This device adds weight to the nock end of the arrow. Just how much weight? Most of us know that stabile flight depends on the point end of the arrow being heavier than the nock end (FOC), usually 10% to 15% heavier. I don't see where this device will add any stability to the arrow in flight; in fact quite the opposite.
I can only assume that you are saying that this device adds stability to the arrow upon deceleration in an animal. I wouldn't be able to dispute this without scientific evidence, but it has been my experience in the last 40 years, and therefore opinion, that arrows just do not decelerate rapidly upon entry. Good shots blow through like a knife through hot butter and the rapid deceleration happens when the arrow hits something solid, like the earth. By that time there is little need for more oomph.
I hate to even bring up the subject of hitting bone. Arrows and broadheads aren't designed to break bone. They kill by internal hemmorage. I know it happens, but the vast majority of shots are thru soft tissue. Seems like a lot of hype for the few shots where this thing would do any good. And if heavy bone, like a leg bone is hit then all bets are off unless your weapon goes BANG.
What I'd really like to see is links to some of this scientific evidence.
I can only assume that you are saying that this device adds stability to the arrow upon deceleration in an animal. I wouldn't be able to dispute this without scientific evidence, but it has been my experience in the last 40 years, and therefore opinion, that arrows just do not decelerate rapidly upon entry. Good shots blow through like a knife through hot butter and the rapid deceleration happens when the arrow hits something solid, like the earth. By that time there is little need for more oomph.
I hate to even bring up the subject of hitting bone. Arrows and broadheads aren't designed to break bone. They kill by internal hemmorage. I know it happens, but the vast majority of shots are thru soft tissue. Seems like a lot of hype for the few shots where this thing would do any good. And if heavy bone, like a leg bone is hit then all bets are off unless your weapon goes BANG.
What I'd really like to see is links to some of this scientific evidence.
07-26-2013, 04:29 PM
#13
Spike
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 11
It appears that this device fits into the nock or is assembled that way. If you want to talk about arrow stabilization then it needs to be explained further. This device adds weight to the nock end of the arrow. Just how much weight? Most of us know that stabile flight depends on the point end of the arrow being heavier than the nock end (FOC), usually 10% to 15% heavier. I don't see where this device will add any stability to the arrow in flight; in fact quite the opposite.
I can only assume that you are saying that this device adds stability to the arrow upon deceleration in an animal. I wouldn't be able to dispute this without scientific evidence, but it has been my experience in the last 40 years, and therefore opinion, that arrows just do not decelerate rapidly upon entry. Good shots blow through like a knife through hot butter and the rapid deceleration happens when the arrow hits something solid, like the earth. By that time there is little need for more oomph.
I hate to even bring up the subject of hitting bone. Arrows and broadheads aren't designed to break bone. They kill by internal hemmorage. I know it happens, but the vast majority of shots are thru soft tissue. Seems like a lot of hype for the few shots where this thing would do any good. And if heavy bone, like a leg bone is hit then all bets are off unless your weapon goes BANG.
What I'd really like to see is links to some of this scientific evidence.
I can only assume that you are saying that this device adds stability to the arrow upon deceleration in an animal. I wouldn't be able to dispute this without scientific evidence, but it has been my experience in the last 40 years, and therefore opinion, that arrows just do not decelerate rapidly upon entry. Good shots blow through like a knife through hot butter and the rapid deceleration happens when the arrow hits something solid, like the earth. By that time there is little need for more oomph.
I hate to even bring up the subject of hitting bone. Arrows and broadheads aren't designed to break bone. They kill by internal hemmorage. I know it happens, but the vast majority of shots are thru soft tissue. Seems like a lot of hype for the few shots where this thing would do any good. And if heavy bone, like a leg bone is hit then all bets are off unless your weapon goes BANG.
What I'd really like to see is links to some of this scientific evidence.
Hey there,
We will see more evidence to support all of this. As far as kinetic energy, force, momentum I have posted the formulas for that I am assuming your talking about stability and secondary impact. We have to remember this product has only been on the market for 4 days. Once it starts moving into stores I am positive there will be more tools available for learning. On pass through shots yes this product doesn't do anything I totally agree. Could this product help provide additional energy to women's and kids bows though? That is another thing maybe we should look at. Should we use this tool just in case we do make a bad shot since its increasing momentum, kinetic energy, force and having very little effect on speed? Could the guy in this thread http://www.huntingnet.com/forum/bowh...eapers-ke.html looking for more kinetic energy to shoot an expandable use this product to be where he needs to be? As far as stability goes I personally witnessed high speed video with literally hundreds of shots, so I suppose that is out the window until they post more on the product. As far as bone goes well I am honestly not sure I haven't shot it at bone, I do know they market this product to help with bad shots as one of the characteristics though. I should probably remain silent until more evidence is shown to the public. I didn't realize it would be this controversial. I appreciate the feedback.
Last edited by Chaoselite; 07-26-2013 at 05:01 PM.
07-26-2013, 04:40 PM
#14
Spike
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 2
Honestly you really can't. Not when it comes to shooting bow and arrow or even rifles/handguns. It is way to variable. You would have to have the exact same arrow weight to the thousandths, the exact same broadhead weight to the thousandths, your shot would have to be exactly the same and your ballistics gel would have to be the exact same consistency which is impossible. This slide hammer won't just blow through a target assuming it is lightweight. I am willing to try it the main reason being I am a little low on kinetic energy. I don't want to go to a heavier set up so we will see assuming this thing is lightweight and hardly effects speed. I too would like the makers of this product to post more on their website, I did not know this was only out for 4 days. I think we outta be patient. Also Chaos I think you should let the makers of the product do their own marketing. Just be patient. I do appreciate you notifying us of the product though. Interesting.
Last edited by 10Point1985; 07-26-2013 at 05:22 PM.
07-27-2013, 05:07 AM
#15
Spike
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Lincoln, Illinois
Posts: 39
When an arrow enters and animal it decreases in speed, it doesn't immediately stop unless the arrow lodges in heavy bone. Even if a low poundage archer doesn't get a pass through the arrow still decreases speed rather than just stopping. This leads me to believe that when this happens this product won't perform as advertised on regular good shots, because on the site they advertise it as working when the arrow comes to a complete stop like what happens in a target. However, I do believe it will make a difference when contacting heavy bone. How much of a difference? In my opinion not much, I believe all it may do is shatter the bone, but not much else. For it to work properly it seems the arrow must come to an abrupt stop, like what would happen when contacting heavy bone, once it comes to that stop the weight slams forward causing secondary force which I believe will shatter the bone, but don't believe will propel the arrow any further into the game animal. This is all opinion though.
I would definitely like to test one out to see if my opinions are all unfounded though, I have been wrong before and this may be no different. I just don't see spending 30 bucks to test one though.
I would definitely like to test one out to see if my opinions are all unfounded though, I have been wrong before and this may be no different. I just don't see spending 30 bucks to test one though.
07-29-2013, 05:14 AM
#16
Spike
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 18
I can see how extra momentume/kinetic energy could help people wanting to use mechanicals and are at the bottom needs to use them i.e. everyone says that magic number of 60lbs KE for most mechanicals. Now what I want to know (and it may be hard to calculate) is...how much this might add to momentum or Kintetic Energy...I think MOMENTUM is key. Kinetic energy really isnt the best way to determine effectiveness for penetration. If this product increased momentum by 10% or even better 25% and greater I think it would be a great product. Some people may only get 90% penetration on say a quartering away shot at 30-40 yards, but with 10-25% more momentum they might get complete passthroughs. I would be worried though that this product will throw off the FOC since it is at the back of the arrow. An arrow company would be WISE to develope a mechanism like this, but inside their arrows towards the front. If you take a weight...say 30-50 grains and allow it 2-3 inches of travel inside the front portion of the arrow...now that would create some awesome extra punch!
07-30-2013, 01:30 AM
#17
Spike
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 11
I can see how extra momentume/kinetic energy could help people wanting to use mechanicals and are at the bottom needs to use them i.e. everyone says that magic number of 60lbs KE for most mechanicals. Now what I want to know (and it may be hard to calculate) is...how much this might add to momentum or Kintetic Energy...I think MOMENTUM is key. Kinetic energy really isnt the best way to determine effectiveness for penetration. If this product increased momentum by 10% or even better 25% and greater I think it would be a great product. Some people may only get 90% penetration on say a quartering away shot at 30-40 yards, but with 10-25% more momentum they might get complete passthroughs. I would be worried though that this product will throw off the FOC since it is at the back of the arrow. An arrow company would be WISE to develope a mechanism like this, but inside their arrows towards the front. If you take a weight...say 30-50 grains and allow it 2-3 inches of travel inside the front portion of the arrow...now that would create some awesome extra punch!
07-30-2013, 10:59 AM
#18
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 1,834
With having bowhunted for over 40yrs for everything from Elk to bear to hogs from Canada to Texas, I have seen many "inventions" come and go. Fortunately, I have not fallen victim to many of these. Some are/were better than others. I am saying from the OP first post to the last that this is just another "Better mouse trap!!" than whats out already.
To the OP, it is without question that you are involved in the production/promotion of this product for either your store or pocket. I can see and understand the concept behind this item, just not buying either into it or it itself. A device like this does not take away from the basic theory of taking a shot that is within your comfort zone or equipments capability. Just may make someone with less experience take a shot that they should not due to the idea that they have this "WackemSmackemBangBoomThingamajigger" arrow and will drop mice to mastadons with a single shot in their tracks. I just and wont buy it till I see it out for over 5 years doing EXACTLY, or more, as it is advertised and then I MAY look at it.
To the OP, it is without question that you are involved in the production/promotion of this product for either your store or pocket. I can see and understand the concept behind this item, just not buying either into it or it itself. A device like this does not take away from the basic theory of taking a shot that is within your comfort zone or equipments capability. Just may make someone with less experience take a shot that they should not due to the idea that they have this "WackemSmackemBangBoomThingamajigger" arrow and will drop mice to mastadons with a single shot in their tracks. I just and wont buy it till I see it out for over 5 years doing EXACTLY, or more, as it is advertised and then I MAY look at it.
Last edited by SecondChance; 07-31-2013 at 03:57 AM.
07-30-2013, 09:30 PM
#19
Spike
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 11
With having bowhunted for over 40yrs for everything from Elk to bear to hogs from Canada to Texas, I have seen many "inventions" come and go. Fortunately, I have not fallen victim to many of these. Some are/were better than others. I am saying from the OP first post to the last that this is just another "Better mouse trap!!" than whats out already.
To the OP, it is without question that you are involved in the production/promotion of this product for either your store or pocket. I can see and understand the concept behind this item, just not buying either into it or it itself. A device like this does not take away from the basic theory of taking a shot that is within your comfort zone or equipments capability. Just may make someone with less experience take a shot that they should not due to the idea that they have this "WackemSmackemBangBoomThingamajigger" arrow and will drop mice to mastadons with a single shot in their tracks. I just and wont buy it till I see it out for over 5 years doing EXACTLY, or more, as it is advertised and them I MAY look at it.
To the OP, it is without question that you are involved in the production/promotion of this product for either your store or pocket. I can see and understand the concept behind this item, just not buying either into it or it itself. A device like this does not take away from the basic theory of taking a shot that is within your comfort zone or equipments capability. Just may make someone with less experience take a shot that they should not due to the idea that they have this "WackemSmackemBangBoomThingamajigger" arrow and will drop mice to mastadons with a single shot in their tracks. I just and wont buy it till I see it out for over 5 years doing EXACTLY, or more, as it is advertised and them I MAY look at it.
07-31-2013, 09:14 AM
#20
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Kansas
Posts: 3,905
Alright, I generally try to refrain from doing this, but I'm putting my engineering hat on here for a little physics lesson...
Specifically what you are talking about is akin to a 'crumple zone' on a vehicle. When an arrow impacts an animal, it needs 100% of it's mass to be rigid (hence better penetration from stiffer arrows), to maintain momentum through the impact.
On a relative basis, if you increased the weight of your arrow with a fixed weight, you would get significantly better penetration than what you would see from a 'slip hammer' device. When a 'slip hammer' arrow impacts, only the weight of the arrow body, call it the shell, is involved in the initial exchange of momentum. This means you are robbing yourself of your initial potential 'punching power' by reducing the momentum of the shell (some of the weight, i.e. momentum, is found on the hammer, some on the shell). Then as the arrow body slows, the hammer slides forward, and creates a secondary impact.
What this means: you have a momentum differential between that of the arrow body and the hammer. This spreads the 'impulse', the time over which momentum is transferred, which degrades the efficiency of the transfer.
So 100% no, you will NOT get better penetration from a slip hammered arrow as you would from an equivalently weighted arrow with a strong FOC balance.
Specifically what you are talking about is akin to a 'crumple zone' on a vehicle. When an arrow impacts an animal, it needs 100% of it's mass to be rigid (hence better penetration from stiffer arrows), to maintain momentum through the impact.
On a relative basis, if you increased the weight of your arrow with a fixed weight, you would get significantly better penetration than what you would see from a 'slip hammer' device. When a 'slip hammer' arrow impacts, only the weight of the arrow body, call it the shell, is involved in the initial exchange of momentum. This means you are robbing yourself of your initial potential 'punching power' by reducing the momentum of the shell (some of the weight, i.e. momentum, is found on the hammer, some on the shell). Then as the arrow body slows, the hammer slides forward, and creates a secondary impact.
What this means: you have a momentum differential between that of the arrow body and the hammer. This spreads the 'impulse', the time over which momentum is transferred, which degrades the efficiency of the transfer.
So 100% no, you will NOT get better penetration from a slip hammered arrow as you would from an equivalently weighted arrow with a strong FOC balance.