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RE: Are outfitters ruining hunting?
 

The main big advantage to a guided hunt is that they do all of the leg work for you. I' m like you, I prefer to do my own. But if the area I' m going to hunt is more than an hour or two from the house, I don' t have the means or to time to do it. I can' t afford to waste hunting vacation just to go somewhere and spend it scouting an out of state site. With my luck, when I finally get back there to actually hunt it, it would be overrun with other hunters anyway.

I do believe that some of the guided hunts are extremely expensive which puts them out of my reach unless I win the lottery. As much as I hate to see any government intervention anywhere in life, I' m wondering if the states should regulate some of it. I know that some of the states already have their hands in it and are making money off this system because the guides and outfitters having increasing costs every year too. It' s a vicious cycle and we poor folk are at the butt end of it as usual.

It seems like everything now days is money driven. I can' t remember the last time I asked to hunt someone' s property and was told I could without having to pay a trespass fee, or get on with a lease situation.

There' s all kinds of possibilities for fixing this problem. Unfortunately, most have undesirable consequences to them and don' t really solve the problem, but create more.

RE: Are outfitters ruining hunting?
 

I' ve never paid for a hunt thru an outfitter and probably never will. Mainly because I don' t have that kind of money to spend.
I watch many TV programs on hunting and 90% are filmed on ' outfitter' land. I know it' s just TV and they show you the good stuff but jeez..... It just seems too perfect on TV. And then there' s the money spent................. Hubby says " What' s the bottom line?" " MONEY"
I would rather watch cousin Bubba in mix-matched chamo miss an attempt at a 4 point buck, or Uncle Bob first time hunting shoots a doe and loses the blood trail.
Perhaps my opinion doesn' t matter at all since I haven' t hunted with an outfitter;)

RE: Are outfitters ruining hunting?
 

Ruining hunting....geeesh that' s kinda harsh.

We (outfitters) offer a service. I can' t speak for all, but my partners and myself do everything in our legal power to put game in front of our clients....if it' s a deer hunt, yes we select the best spots to place our hunters to get the best opportunity for a shot....it' s still fair chase hunting and there is no garuantee the whitetails are going to show up. We plant food plots, do the scouting but how different is it to going to your buddies land and having him tell you to go to a certain spot....other than the fee' s.

If it' s a turkey hunt, we scout, we guide and call and do everything in our legal power to put a gobbler in front of our client. Most times from the clientel that we have, most are either first timers looking to learn the ropes....and we feel from what a client learns while hunting with us, makes them a better hunter and gives them the tools they may need to hunt on thier own. This is especially true for first time turkey hunters.

The second kind of clients are the, " don' t have anywhere else to go" , type clients....especially out of staters coming into PA for the first time. Most of you don' t know what hunting PA is all about. Our deer population is exploding, but...on public land, there is a orange coat behind every tree....and it' s not a nice place to be. We offer over 2000 acres of private, fair chase property with a limit of hunters so that a client will not see another hunter all day. How many places can you do that on public property.

We offer a service for a nominal fee......if we fill our tags, we can' t hunt...this way we hunt along with our clients and expand our season.

Policed by the police[:' (]

RE: Are outfitters ruining hunting?
 

Another example of outfitters making hunting better.

I' ve booked two hunts in my life thus far. One was a elk trip into Sheridan, Wyoming hunting the Big Horn mountains. Now, a PA whitetail hunter didn' t know the first thing about hunting elk....what I learned on that hunt will forever be instilled in my mind and that allows me to return on a self guided elk hunt whenever I see fit. The lesson was worth what I paid for the hunt and I was fortunate enough to score on a bull elk. He graces the walls of my log home. I won' t trade that memory for nothing.....hiring a guide to take me into the mountains and make me hump mountains, chase bull elk, feed me and put me through marathon hiking didn' t make it any less of a hunt. It made it better.

The second hunt was a bear hunt into the wilderness of Quebec. Again, the guide had the leg work done and put me in the right spot. It was still up to me to get in there, get setup, and make the shot which I was fortunate enough to take a nice black bear. What I learned on my first bear hunt taught me enough to allow me to be able to do it myself.

Both these hunts made me a more self sufficient hunt if nothing more than the lessons themselves.

Now, I' ll go one futher...there are bad outfitters no doubt....but the good ones can make hunting better, make you a better hunter....but the bad ones are the ones that make the news.

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RE: Are outfitters ruining hunting?
 

I' ll be honest here, I' ve never been on a hunt far away so I do not know much about outfitters except what I read and watch on TV. If I could afford a hunt for say elk as an example, I might book an outfitter my first time.

The only problem I have with some outfitters from what I have read or heard from others is this.........they lease all the best available hunting land in some areas. Being from Illinois I do know that many residents of Illinois(particularly western Illinois) caused a big stir here, especially in Pike County. It doesn' t affect me personally because there is not one outfitter in my area. I still hunt whitetails on private land with permission although its getting harder to maintain that luxury.

RE: Are outfitters ruining hunting?
 

I believe there alot of dishonest outfitters out there,
there are also plenty of dishonest hunters. Picking an outfitter
should be like choosing a hunting partner, after all its your hunt
your paying for it you should know what your getting for it.

I am for the most part jealous of outfitters they get to spend all there time in the woods looking for game. What better job could there be?

I have never hired an outfitter but I have guided for them, its amazing how much work goes into getting someone else close to game. They work for every penny they get (atleast the ones i worked for did) .

I dont see any feasable way for some one in Florida to know what the elk are doing on any given day in western Montana, this is where an outfitter comes in handy.

And boy would i sure love to watch someone else pack out my elk for once!

RE: Are outfitters ruining hunting?
 

I really don' t know if outfitters are ruining hunting...yet. Whether honest or dishonest. But what I do see with hunting, is that it is becoming a sport where the rich will survive and the moderate household and below are losing hunting opportunities. Land is being snatched up by big business(possibly outfitters), thus making it harder for the " average Joe" to just simply go around and ask for permission to hunt some land when the property owner KNOWS that he/she can lease the land and make some $$. What is going to happen 20 years from now?? Am I going to be able to get permission on private land?? I certainly hope so. I believe this also is one of many factors in dealing with hunter decline. The guy that can' t afford to go on guided hunts, leased land etc, etc.... I don' t think that those guys aren' t interested in hunting anymore. I think they are being pushed out of this great sport. Just my thoughts.

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RE: Are outfitters ruining hunting?
 

Land is being leased up around my family farm in Ks. by ourfitters, and what bothers me the most is the guys that are coming into hunt with the outfitter have no desire to shoot does. So, the doe/buck ratio just keeps getting worse. If the guided hunters/outfitters aren' t going to do thier part in maintaining the herd, it doesn' t help out the local deer herds at all. Plus like others have said, one day at the rate things are going, he who has the most money will be he who gets to hunt[:' (]

RE: Are outfitters ruining hunting?
 

Its a big money thing now! I am not saying all are this way.....but most are! Providing a service is NOT the intention of outfitting......its to make money. I don' t believe anyone provides services out of the goodness of their hearts.

RE: Are outfitters ruining hunting?
 

Damn it!! Now I' m getting depressed! [:@]

I gotta go prep some stand sites......When I get back you guys better be talking about how this hole situation is turning around and the average joe has something to look forward to![>:]

RE: Are outfitters ruining hunting?
 

I think hunting is slowly turning into a rich mans sport, but I won' t point the finger solely at the outfitter. There are growing number of people that just want to get out there and kill a deer, and a good number of those people are very rich, and pay a premium to go kill game. I do see a problem with outfitters as well using this to jack up basic rates, making the average guided hunt of 5-10 years ago out of reach for the average Joe today.

What really bugs me is when I see Alaskan guided hunts for grizzly bears that are $7500-$10,000 that are conducted in the same areas using the same resources as the caribou hunts that those same outfitters guide for $2500-$5000. The reason the grizzly hunts are anywhere from $2500-$5000 more expensive is because there is a guide required law for non residents to hunt them in Alaska. Same goes for Dall sheep and mountain goat, although the terrain is a bit tougher, and access by planes, horses, and other methods is expensive. When I can go on a grizzly or sheep hunt in a new area for about $250 out of my own pocket into an area that a guide takes a client for $7500 still baffles me. But the outfitters up here do not have a hard time booking full for several seasons ahead because there are a ton of people willing to pay the price.

This big buck craze where they are selling bucks by inches of antler, that is where it gets out of hand. When you watch a hunting show on the outdoor channel that gives a link to the outfitter they are using, then go to the webisght and look up pricing, it is downright amazing at times.

I don' t have the kind of money for all the hunting I want to do to go guided. I' ve gone on some exceptional hunts with family, friends and members from the board here. Last Sept. Don K. myself and Robert Scott hunted elk in Montana. The hunt cost me about $1000 total for tags ($650 alone), airfare (cashed in mileage), food and a couple extra bits of gear that I needed for the hunt. It was my first ever elk hunt, and going with guys that had gone before taught me alot. We almost got elk on a couple different days, and I had my chance at a monster bull, but the pines were just a little thick. I don' t think I could of gotten much more out of a guided hunt.

I still have yet to go on an outfitted or guided hunt, but I' m sure sometime in the future I will. I do agree they have their place, but I think some are getting out of hand, and dragging others along with them. This goes further with outfitters buying and leasing lands and moving out hunters that have used those lands for generations. It' s disturbing to hear about.

RE: Are outfitters ruining hunting?
 

I look at it like this..... THere are a lot of great outfitters I am sure, and I am also sure some that are not so good. I think too many can really make certain geographical areas much harder to hunt or find decent areas to hunt. I compare it to my industry - fishing. Here in Florida, we have a dozen charter captains a mile... are they ruining the fishing ? Its the same thing - some good ones, some not so good...... If you go to certain areas in Florida - fishing is tough and a charter can be a welcome thing - just like an outfitter to a guy in a new area.... so there are good points I think, and nothing wrong with good outfitting services. The big differance here is the land issue - no one leases fishing areas, but the land thing is a subject with many points of view I' m sure. Unfortunately some people have the resources to buy and lease lands for these services-some do not, and its land that effects a lot of people for the many reasons mentioned above. I dont really see an all around cure for some of the problems......

Hey Cougar - where in Illinois are you ?? I hunt Vermilion county - where I was born. Its a long drive from Florida - but worth it - 2 8 points in last 2 years =)

Tom

RE: Are outfitters ruining hunting?
 

eightwgt
I am down in Crawford county. In Robinson to be exact. You lived near Danville right? Sounds like you did good bud. I got a 10 and a 8 last year, not record book bucks though. I do a little hunting in the Crawford County Conservation area too(1,100 acres), but not much.

RE: Are outfitters ruining hunting?
 

The subject of this thread is a tough one to correctlly or accurately answer, because whether you are for or against outfitters will probably determine a person' s answer to the question. With everything including outfitters...there are good ones and bad ones. Unless I come into some $$, I really don' t know if I will ever be able to afford a hunt of anykind. All I know is that the amount of private land that I can hunt is declining year after year after year. There are many different factors that go into why. And I' m sure that a lot of guys are seeing the same thing. The depressing thing about is....I don' t ever see it changing the other way. Not that I' m trying to get simpathy points will any of you fellas....but I WILL get my kids into hunting someday and where am I suppose to take them?? Over-hunted Public land?? And deal with all of the A-Holes that hunt it?? Not that all fellas that hunt public land are that way, but the few that I have run into are. I certainly don' t know the correct answers. I just think that it' s kind of sad.

BOWDACIOUS:
I' m sure that you have very good intentions with everthing that you do and I' m certainly am not bashing you in anyway, but you can' t tell me that anyone that starts anykind of business doesn' t do it because they think they can make $$ doing it. Whether they do it to get rich or just to make a living. Either way, they start it to make $$.

RE: Are outfitters ruining hunting?
 

Couar

Yes near DaNVILLE I am actually hunting in Vermilion county Indiana.... long story how I got permision to hunt 5000 acres but its LOADED with deer - big ones. My bucks were not records at all either - but hey, my first 2 bucks, both with a bow, and both near where I was born - just the way I wanted it ! I saw some 160 + class bucks and chased a 10 point for a week before shooting the 8 last year on my last day in the rain (man I was coldddd)
I was hopin you may have been closer - be cool to hook up with someone from the forum. Ill be up there Nov 5th - just like the last 2 years...... cant wait.

RE: Are outfitters ruining hunting?
 

And preachers don' t preach out of the goodness of their hearts, churches cost money, garbage men don' t pick up your garbage for free, it' s a service and it cost money.....your dentist, doctor, mechanic help you out, but not out of the goodness of their heart but they still provide a service.

Food plots cost money not to mention gas, time, equipment, treestands, food....that we provide as part of our service......some are hogs about it, think of it as a product....supply and demand......I guess I don' t like being lumped into the hogs of the industry....

We take off work to guide as owners and operators, shouldn' t we get paid as part of our service.... Last rifle season a client from NJ shot a heck of a nice buck for little cash....not much different than paying cabin dues, for a license, your favorite lease.....the only difference is we do the leg work.

Some outfitters are hogs...like perhaps some like Arctic might gave info of....

I do see the threat of outfitters leasing up property. If our business grows, we hope to lease more....but with fair chase animals available.....growing them in a natural enviroment does cost a lot of money.

Just one outfitters opinion.

RE: Are outfitters ruining hunting?
 

I have never used an outfitter, and probably never will! I really like to do it all myself, I mean all of it. It makes it that much more rewarding when you have success. I could buy any hunt or hunts I wanted to, but its not the same, I would feel like I bought the animal. I have absolultly no problems with outfitters or guides, its just not for me! I do have a problem with people paying for a hunt, saying they' re hunting, and there Fences involved!!!! Not hunting!

Good Luck!

RE: Are outfitters ruining hunting?
 

Cloud... you took the words out of my mouth. I just cant see paying someone to set me in a tree and wait for a animal to walk by. By doing this i would be missing " THE HUNT" . I agree, half of the fun is trying to figure out where to go and when to move. Scouting and all that goes with hunting is i big part of the hunt to me. I have nothing against outfitters or those that use them, but i can safely say I have never used one and don' t believe I ever will.;) Just show me the public land and move out of my may:D

RE: Are outfitters ruining hunting?
 

Outfitters do provide a service while making money.....heck yes, they have too. I guess I dislike the prospect of leasing, of course many individual hunters these days lease land to hunt.....some because they have no other choice.

RE: Are outfitters ruining hunting?
 

Outfitting for whitetail deer has definitely had a negative impact in Kansas. Where there used to be plenty of land to go around, now it is dismal. I' ve lost out on thousands of acres to hunt due to land locked up by outfitters. The private section of ground my buddies and I do have a last foot hold on is surrounded by outfitters. Now these outfitters don' t give a hang about shooting does or improving or even maintaining the health of the herd. They are like gold diggers raping the countryside and when the resource is decimated, they will move on to someplace else with no regard to what they left behind, which is a herd that sucks and is out of balance. They have bowhunters hunting ground every day in November and gun hunters every day for two weeks in December basically killing every single buck from 3.5 and up and lately even some younger than that just because they aren' t seeing the bucks like they used to and no one who pays 3K is going deerless. It' s horrible. It' s all about the outfitters making money and that' s it. You can' t argue with me about the plight of the struggling farmer whose crops are being destroyed by deer and the money they make off hunting feeds them through the winter...what a friggin' joke! I know. I see it. These farmers are doing just fine and are outrageously wealthy but it' s simply a matter of the value of the land as pasture ground or hunting ground. It' s the golden rule...the one with the gold makes the rules and the conglomeration of outfitters has much more economic resources than most average Joe hunters with kids at home and a mortgage to pay. Most farmers despise deer anyway and figure they might as well make some extra cash for a couple extra 4x4 quads to play with or perhaps another SUV...certainly not for food, crop damage compensation, or any other bogus reason. It' s ruining hunting for sure where I' m at and it makes me sick. Now I' m not talking about elk, bear, moose, caribou...etc...outfitters, I don' t know about them so I can' t comment. I' m speaking to whitetail deer outfitters of which I know well..what a scam! [:' (][:@][:' (][:@][:' (][:@][:' (][:@]

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RE: Are outfitters ruining hunting?
 

Never hunted with an outfitter before and I' m not planning to, nor do I even know an outfitter but that doesn' t change my opinion. I' m with Rob on this one. It' s legal and as long as the outfitter is running an honest business, no one should be able to stop him. If you are mad that " your" hunting land got leased up, then you should have offered to lease it first. There is nothing in the Bill of Rights that says we are all entitled to free hunting grounds on private property. This all leaves us with 3 options for the future. Buy land, lease land, or hunt free public land. Sure it' s not as good as asking permission and hunting for free but there are alot of things in this country that aren' t as good as they were 30 yrs ago. Just my 2 cents.

RE: Are outfitters ruining hunting?
 

Texas guys always seem to have the same mindset on this issue. Perhaps it' s because darn near every inch is leased up in Texas and they have forgotten what it was like to have a long lasting relationship with a farmer or other landowner that let you hunt their ground in exchange for some help here and there or just some good ole fashioned freakin' conversation. Screw the outfitters and their business! It' s ruining the sport. It' s destroying the quantity and quality of the deer! The only friggin' benefit is for the friggin' outfitter! Because it' s legal....gawd I hate those words. But TxCowboy unfortunately you are right in your three proposed options...lease, own, or hunt public...friggin' sad, really friggin' sad...all for the almighty buck.

RE: Are outfitters ruining hunting?
 

" ...most of the farmers are outrageously wealthy..." ??? Come on wolfen there is NO way you can honestly state that as fact. The majority of landowners are FAR from wealthy. Farming is hardly an " outrageously profitable" business.

The landowners are simply providing a service and are entitled to be compensated for their work. Its simple economics at work and gripe all we want, its only going to continue to become more common. GONE are the days of " free hunting" or hunting on a buddies/family members land. Clubs, leases, outfitters lease holdings and " pay to trespass" is the rule of the day. What are landowners to do? Someone falls out of a tree yet can sue the landowner who must carry liability insurance, what is he to do?

The outfitters also make it much safer for most. Most of us east of the MS that hunt outwest are hardly in shape to do so and if so its still safer to go with someone who is familiar with the terrain and know who and where to contact folks in the event of an emergency. A guided hunt is also MUCH more productive. You can go out and spend half a week scouting and trapsing allover the place just trying to find likely spots. Or you can spend that entire week with much better odds of actually seeing what quarry you are after when utilizing a guide.

Sure the prices are steadily going up in the various trophy producing areas regardless what type of animals you are talking about. Thats pure and simple economics. There is only so much carrying capacity and only so many trophies available in a given time period, yet the list of willing " guns" grows larger each year. Simple economics will again dictate who gets what.

This is why it should become more evident to " the common man" that he should utilize and maximize his own lease, farm or available hunting area for trophy production without the need of " going to the Holy Grail" wherever that may be. But sadly, many just want to pop raghorns, not shoot slickheads, not bother with foodplots and the expense. Yet they are the first to claim, " My area wont grow big boys" . But then sadly they complain about outifitters and hunters who pay for such mgmt in areas that do produce such animals.

I for one enjoy hunting different areas not only for the increased trophy potential but also for the " different scenery" and all that a new area has to offer. From the strictist point, deer hunting is deer hunting regardless where you go. But I enjoy places like MO, KS and TX moreso than my homestate of TN not solely because of trophy production (truth is my place in TN produces larger bucks and the place in hunt in southern MO and TX) its just that " other places" are different and may offer more of a given class of animals. And heck isnt anticipation and preparation half the fun?

Cant ANYONE be happy?
RA

RE: Are outfitters ruining hunting?
 

TxCowboy....

I just think that there are a few of us are getting a little depressed because of the land we used to be able to hunt is diminishing greatly.

" This all leaves us with 3 options for the future. Buy land, lease land, or hunt free public land."

God what a great concept. I wish I would have thought about that. The fact remains that there are many of us that can' t afford to do that. I don' t think that any of us are saying that what is going on is illegal or anything like that. This is just one thing that some us(the guys that don' t have the $$) can' t do a dang thing about and are just venting a little.