Hooked on speed
 

I went to the bow shop yesterday to get some new arrows. I am switching from carbons back to aluminium. Although my bow is noticably slower with the heavier aluminum arrows, it is also noticably quieter too! I did have to resight my bow a little, but I am not losing any distance in my shooting.
Well, the guy at the shop just could not understand why I wanted to go back to heavy aluminum arrows. He said " do you realize you' re going to lose some arrow speed?" It seems to me that a lots of people today are overly obcessed with speed. I' m not knocking speed, if it works for you thats fine!
But for me, I' m getting better accuracy and a quieter setup with the heavier arrows. I don' t think that there is a bow shooting fast enough that a deer couldn' t jump the string, but if he doesn' t hear it, he can' t jump it!

RE: Hooked on speed
 

That' s funny, I just went the OTHER WAY,aluminums to carbons.I do agree with you, speed is OVER RATED.I' m trying carbons because I' m tired of worrying about every little " bump and nudge" .Super Slam Selects are not CHEAP.Hate the idea of possible bending one every time I pull it out of a mckenzie.With carbons you just need a friend to help you PULL your arrow out of the mckenzie.Has to be the " lesser" of the two evils.[:o]

RE: Hooked on speed
 

My set was the opposite alum were nosiey on my bow. The most quietes arrow setup would be carbon plastic vanes and a mecanical head.JMO

RE: Hooked on speed
 

JagMagMan, you just learned what alot of us already knew and your exactly right. That is one reason why I always suggest if you want the benifits of carbon, go to the heaviest carbon or as close to your former aluminum weight as you can get. :)

RE: Hooked on speed
 

I have always hunted with heavy aluminums and always will. Strings last longer and so do bows:). Aluminums are quieter and just as durable as carbons, if your bending them pulling them from targets than someone needs to show you how to pull arrows. Although a high speed arrow can have the same KE as a slower heavier arrow there is the factor of momentom. Heavy arrows carry their KE longer and are harder to stop than light ones when impacting something like the ribs or spine of a large animal. Try to hunt dangerous game in Africa with a 500gr. arrow thats going 280 fps, that makes about 87ft. lbs of energy where as an 800gr. arrow at 220fps is the same KE but only the heavy arrow is recommended for Buff etc. Now this speed vs weight doesn`t really have any merit in NA. because we only have a couple animals, moose, musk ox, and maybe brown bears that warrent the need for the KE numbers that I`m talking about. Heck when I stated bowhunting a bow that could shoot over 205 was on fire. Speed or arrow weight don`t kill, accuracy does.

RE: Hooked on speed
 

With aluminum, I get better accuracy, quieter bow, more efficient bow, less shock and vibration (without adding various and sundry doodads) and easier tuning. I get good durability because I use the thicker wall sizes, like 2216, 2219, 2315 and 2317. When they do get a little torqued, a minute with an arrow straightener and they' re like new again. I rarely get an arrow that will not shoot a broadhead and, when I do, it' s usually easily fixed by installing a new nock and/or insert. I can shoot the biggest, nastiest fixed blade heads on them, have some big ol' helical feathers on the back end to control them and still have plenty of room for clearance on my rest.

It might take a fraction of a second longer for my arrow to get to a deer at 30 yards, but it' s going to arrive with authority.

Carbon simply will not shoot fixed blade heads for me and I refuse to shoot mechanicals. But carbon' s okay for field points and poking holes in 3D targets.

Turk_man, I know what your saying, but just need to point out that you can increase momentum with speed as well. My 55 pound longbow (LB) will shoot a 575 grain arrow at 185 fps. My 60 pound, energy wheel compound (CP) will shoot that same 575 grain arrow at 220 fps for 62 ft lbs and .5609 lb/secs.

Now, take the mythical 350 grain IBO arrow and run the program to see what speeds it has to get to match the momentum -


LB 575 - 185 fps 44 ft lbs .4716 lb/secs

350 gn - 304 fps 72 ft lbs .4717 lb/secs

CP 575 - 220 fps 62 ft lbs .5609 lb/secs

350 gn - 361 fps 102 ft/lbs .5611 lb/secs

See? You CAN get the same momentum with a light arrow as someone with a slower, heavy arrow.

It does kinda get me tickled that so many guys jump through so many hoops trying to get 300 fps with a light arrow and wind up with about the same killing power as I get with my logs out of my old longbow. But, it' s their money, their fun.

Doesn' t mean I can' t have a chuckle at their expense tho... :D

RE: Hooked on speed
 

Wow! Lately some of these topics in this forum are great!!! I love it!

I started hunting with carbons after 24 years hunting with aluminum. I do use the heaviest carbon arrow I can in the Easton line that shoots well from my bow. My only reason for changing to carbon shafts back in 2001 was just to give them a try and see how durable they were, not for speed. My setup works well for me and I am not a speed freak. One thing to remember, a lighter arrow also slows down faster too, lessening impact at longer distances.

I will be staying with carbon for the time being because of my success so far with carbons, and manufacturers are making heavier and straighter carbon hunting arrows every year. If all carbons were still as light as they were a few years ago, this ole boy would still be shooting aluminums.

RE: Hooked on speed
 

Coug... Your comment about retained speed done sent me back to the ballistics program. :D

Retained speed, energy and momentum at 30 yards on the same arrows I used above:

LB 575 - 173 fps 38 ft lbs .4419 lb/secs

350 gn - 277 fps 60 ft lbs .4303 lb/secs

CP 575 - 206 fps 54 ft lbs .5244 lb/secs

350 gn - 329 fps 84 ft lbs .5109 lb/secs

The faster arrows ovbiously still carry more KE, the heavier arrows still carry more momentum. And the faster arrows have a lot flatter trajectory which is an advantage. How much of an advantage depends on the individual. The KE vs momentum argument has raged in the gunning community far longer than I' ve been alive, certainly longer than it has in the bowhunting community, and I know which ring I' ve thrown in my lot with. Elmer Keith was my guru as far as guns go.;)

RE: Hooked on speed
 

KE is the better of the 2 for ESTIMATING penetration. Another thinng to add to the equasion is the effects of speed OTHER than that of just KE or momentum.
Simply put, faster things cut easier.
We have all seen or heard of the fixed blade test. try pushing a fixed blaed (cut to tip) through leather, and a replaceable blade (say a Thunderhead) through leather. it seems VERY hard to get that T-head through the leather...almost to the point of bending the arrow. Why do they zip in one side and out the other on a deer (when palcing the shot correctly)??? SPEED Why can you take a bicycle spoke and push (HUGE amounts of KE and momentum here...say 200 lbs of you moving at 1 fps) it along the grass and nothing happens...but a weed wacker goes through grass like butter? SPEED.
That said, I AM going heavier this year for more of a quiet bow...I' ll be droping from about 300fps to 280 or 270. (125 gn heads vs 100s, and CX300 vs CX200 will be adding over 50gns).
I' m not a speed demon...but I think some go TOO far in looking at ONLY momentum and to a lesser extent KE.
FACT #1 you CAN' T bow a bow quiet enough for a deer NOT to hear
FACT #2 You won' t make a bow shoot faster than a deer can hear.
the best you can hope for is a compromise...quiet enough that the deer doesn' t CARE...and fast enough that IF he DOES care, he can' t move TOO far out of the way.

RE: Hooked on speed
 

I' m in there with ya boy' s. 2314 XX75' s with 100 gr. broadheads. Have used this
combo hunting for years and works great! I only use my light carbons for 3-D
and that' s it. Is great to have down range energy when you need it too. :D

RE: Hooked on speed
 

I shot allum for years and switched to carb because I was tired of bent allums. I agree about the speed thing thow. I feel that as long as you have a good weighted arrow all is fine. If you can still get alot of speed with a heave arrow thats good.

RE: Hooked on speed
 

Well, I guess I am the odd ball :D

I love my fast shooting bows, but, I can handle them. I was getting 302 f.p.s. out of my bow with 419.9 grain arrows. But, I backed the weight off and cut my arrows, so, now they are around 385 grains.

I know a bunch of you guys are going to fall off your chairs when you read that. A 385 grain hunting arrow [:o][>:]:D Heck, that is about half the weight of arrows alot of guys use.

But, I am still getting right around 70 foot pounds of KE and .48991 lb' s per second of momentum.

Heck, at 100 yards, my bow should still be shooting at roughly 254 f.p.s. and getting 55 foot pounds of KE, not saying that I would ever even think of taking a 100 yard shot.



This whole KE and momentum thing is getting ridiculous when it comes to whitetail deer hunting. Sure, if I was hunting in Africa it would be feasible, but, I haven' t seen any elephants and lions walkin in my woods :D

Lets face it, any bow out there today could be shot with an IBO arrow weight, a fixed blade broadhead, and easily kill deer. Heck, I killed deer last year with my Hoyt MT Sport shooting at a whopping 244 f.p.s. with a 406 grain arrow. My best friend killed deer with his Browning Tornado that was shooting 238 f.p.s. using 31" Easton Carbon Epics that weighed in at 405 grains. Those two set-ups were producing 54 foot pounds of KE and 51 foot pounds of KE.

Why do I shoot carbons? I was sick of having to replace aluminums after them bending. I practice alot, and no matter what people say, they aren' t as durable as carbons. I don' t have a arrow straightener, so, replacing them was my only option. Also, carbons are much queiter on my arrow rest. Most carbon arrows are comming with a slick finish that makes them silent while drawing. Along with that, if you are drawing on a deer, and your arrow falls of your rest and hits your bow, the carbons are not going to make as much noise.

Too all those guys who shoot heavy arrows at slow speeds, thats great, and I am glad that you are glad with it, but, it isn' t my style.

Give me a BOWTECH with a mid-weight carbon ANY day!!!! :D

RE: Hooked on speed
 

Get your hands on a 70 pound Martin ML-14 longbow and shoot that bad boy with a 350 grain arrow. But make an appointment with a chiropractor before you do, cuz you' re gonna need it! After you get snapped back into something resembling human, you can go looking for your deer.:D

RE: Hooked on speed
 

Come on Magnet, most archers can`t shoot that unforgiving outfit. The slightest error in form and that arrow is going haywire. Put a broadhead on it and it only gets worse. Put a 1000 lb moose 20 yards away and keep perfect form, you`d be a better archer than me:). Bent aluminums, hell I`ve never bent a single one of my 2219s yet, and I`ve bounced them off some pretty hard things:D. I still get 230 fps with my 605gr arrows and never have to worry about them letting me down or being unforgiving.

RE: Hooked on speed
 

I hope this doesn' t turn into another KE vs. momentum thread as my head is still spinning from the last one...;):D

I am in the crowd that tends to prefer heavy carbons. With my typical setup I usually need a " heavy carbon" to be properly spined for my setup. Just to put things in perspective, a heavy carbon is one weighing at least 9 grains per inch. I believe my Bemans fall right on that line. Total arrow weight for my setup usually falls in the 420-430 grain range which translates into somewhere between 6-6.5 grains per pound of draw weight for my various setups.

Both aluminum and carbon have their redeeming qualities. Most aluminum tolerances tend to be better than the ICS carbons and their heavier weight does lend itself to a quieter bow. Carbons tend to produce more speed not only because of their lighter overall weight, in comparison to aluminum, but also because they recover quicker out of any given bow. They also get better penetration because of the diameter of most ICS shafts. However, the main reason I enjoy shooting them is because of their durability.

I do not think I would have a problem dinging up any aluminums I might shoot nowadays as my shooting skills have improved. However, I try to keep my hunting setups as simple and durable as possible. For that I prefer carbons.

Good luck with the aluminums....there definitely are reasons that they are still around. :)

RE: Hooked on speed
 

Aw shucks, Frank. I was all set for another one of those ' tastes great vs less filling' threads. :D

I got myself a new dozen 2216' s yesterday. First new aluminums I' d gotten in two years (still wanna talk durability?) and found out that Easton has cut their raw shafts to 33" long! It was 34" last time I bought arrows. I can' t trim even a coat of dust off the insert end of the things any more or they' ll be too short for my recurve!

All carbon arrows are too short for anything but my compound with the rest set back into nearly overdraw position.

If this short arrow stuff keeps up, I' ll have to make myself a new recurve with an overdraw riser.

RE: Hooked on speed
 

I notice that there are more guys than me shooting 2219' s. With this huge wall thickness I suffer very few damaged arrows and a dozen lasts me a year. I shoot over 50 arrows every night too. I tried 2512' s and 2413' s, which saved me nearly a hundred grains, but the durability of them was terrible.

RE: Hooked on speed
 

Well I had a good answer but my puter screwed me and loged off so I will make this shorter.

Buck magnet Don' t worry I am with ya. I love my Darton Maverick. I shoot a 400 gr arrow at 300 fps and the two bucks so far have no complaints:D:D.

I hate the arguement I well no one can shoot that bow as its short brace height hinders accuracy. Well don' t buy that bow and don' t shoot it. We are not forcing anyone to shoot it.

I will continue to shoot my Darton Maverick and love it. I love speed bows.

Brian

RE: Hooked on speed
 

Well all I have to say is that I shoot 300fps and medium weight arrows (Carbon Express 300' s 26-1/2" long & 100 Gr broad head). I have taken 4 large Elk with this set up and all were complete pass throughs. I have no problems with penatration or accuracy. I will add that at those speeds I have gone to a mechanical broad head. Traditional bladed broad heads seem to wonder for me at this speed.

RE: Hooked on speed
 

Now that will be something to see!!!!!!

Personally, I' ll stay away from the speed and keep my bow as efficient as I can without going overboard. After my recent bout of tendonitis, I have had to go from 10 grains per pound (700 grain arrow, 70 pound pull) to 11 grains per pound (63 pounds pull, 700 grain arrow). 15% FOC. XX78.

RE: Hooked on speed
 

I love the speed but...you have to have solid form to handle it. I shoot 306 fps and a 367 grain Gold Tip XT 55/75 very accurately for deer hunting (3" groups at 30 yds). I had planned to shoot heavier, but now I find no compelling reason to do so, considering the accuracy. Before you say it, my bow is whisper quiet, so there' s no issue there, either.

In my view, there is no such thing as a ' forgiving' setup if your form is wrong. If your off, you miss. Speed does one thing very well... It forces us to work out flaws and inconsistencies in our shooting form and makes us better archers. That is worth it to me.

Now for those of you with speed bows (or any bow) that don' t practice enough... Please don' t go hunting... Save the deer for someone who cares...

RE: Hooked on speed
 

Yea, that may be true. Not trying to start a huge debate, but lets also look at the physical aspects of possible injuries that can happen with those radical high speed cams. I used to believe that I was invincible when it came to archery until I started to develop tendonitis in my shoulder which I can basically attribute to a lot of shooting throughout the years with radical cams. Just a caution to ya. Take it for what its worth. Since I have developed it, I am only able to shoot about 20 arrows every other day. And when I do shoot, I have to take anti-inflamatories. I also have to ice the shoulder everyday. Even when I don' t shoot.

Looking back, I wished that I would have been smarter and stuck with other types of bows. So, if you want to bring the longevity of shooting archery over a lifetime, then I would suggest that people at least consider alternatives to radical high speed cams.

RE: Hooked on speed
 

Bob, I regularly shot with a guy 15 years ago that had taken a block of mesquite wood and carved a thumbhole overdraw riser for his Black Widow limbs. He shot the sap out of that thing, too!

You know I agree with you on the high intensity cams and injuries. Seen way too many threads over the past few years about guys getting their shoulders operated on.

RE: Hooked on speed
 

I totally agree with you Arthur. Is seems like the ratio of archers and shoulders problems is rather high.

Seems like I may go in a full circle with archery during my lifetime. My main bows went a recurves, to eccentric wheels, to double cams , to one cams, back to a eccentric, and more then likely back to only my longbow. But, I can honestly say that right now, my longbow is fine for me to return to. Just as long as I don' t get taken out of archery all together, I don' t care what I shoot. Being taken out of archery all together is what I worry about. I want to shoot arhery for a long time to come. Luckily, my problem was caught early, and with some anoying steps, can be controled.

RE: Hooked on speed
 

Bob,

Can' t argue at all with your take on radical cams and injuries. It sure is possible. I' m quiet capable of shooting 80 lbs or more comfortably. In fact, until this year I did. I backed off to 70 lbs this year and it is a breeze for me to pull, not to mention faster to boot. I guess I don' t consider the ' cam' I' m shooting very ' radical' , although some might. It has, in my opinion at least, a fairly smooth draw curve, way smoother ans easier than my old PSE.

I have a shoulder injury as well (from baseball, not archery), so I find the decrease in peak draw weight very comfortable now. Good hunting to you and I hope you have many years of archery left in those shoulders.

RE: Hooked on speed
 

Thanks formula1.