Not passing threw....Any thoughts?
10-31-2010, 10:25 AM
#131
Fork Horn
Join Date: May 2006
Location:
Posts: 414
jakelogsdon - you're choose a broadhead that has terrible penetration qualities and is known to now "open up" as well as the countless threads on guys who've lost deer to these broadheads
why would anyone say anything about using a broadhead like that?
seriosuly though - you realize you're shooting a head that has horrible penetration qualities, so its a little like Russian Roulette ... eventually a not so perfect hit and a poor broadhead will result in a lost deer. Your choice ...
Rage will work fine (it it deploys) on perfect shots
on less than perfect shots, it will have troubles because of the design
why would anyone say anything about using a broadhead like that?
seriosuly though - you realize you're shooting a head that has horrible penetration qualities, so its a little like Russian Roulette ... eventually a not so perfect hit and a poor broadhead will result in a lost deer. Your choice ...
Rage will work fine (it it deploys) on perfect shots
on less than perfect shots, it will have troubles because of the design
You have NEVER SHOT THE HEAD but you're trying to tell people who have shot them and have had great success with them that they are wrong for shooting them.
I'm 5 for 5 with complete passthroughs using the Rage 2 blade on mature Kansas and Iowa bucks. These deer ranged from 260-330lbs. This does not count the does that I have shot with passthroughs. I'm only a 28" draw shooting around 260fps.
Is it because I'm just lucky because I'm certainly not shooting a fast bow?
Get over yourself. Shoot what you like and tell everybody how great they are and leave things alone you have NO PRACTICAL USE on. The only people that are listening to you are the same couple guys that are just like you: Guys that have NEVER SHOT THE HEAD but act like they know what they are talking about.
Maybe you guys can have a therapy group and meet and complain about Rage heads to each other.
10-31-2010, 12:10 PM
#132
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Middletown PA United States
Posts: 3,625
What determines how much penetration you get is what the arrow and/or broadhead do after they make contact with the game. If the arrow doesn't hit with all it's momentum directly behind the broadhead then penetration will suffer. An underspined arrow will likely be wagging around so a lot of the arrows kinetic energy gets wasted with a the partially sideways motion the arrow is doing.
An arrow that weighs too little (for the sake of speed) can have a lot of kinetic energy, but when contact is made the arrow may not have enough momentum to push the broadhead through. A don't forget, it doesn't take a lot of kinetic energy to shoot through deer sized game, but what kinetic energy there is has to be propelled in a straight line.
Notice I'm speaking in generalities here. I have never shot the Rage either. Not because I think it's a bad head. Having not shot it I would not be arrogant enough to say so. I don't believe in basing my opinions on what others say. I can get them for free, but I can not shot enough bow weight and 27" to even test them on game. That, and I take pride in being able to tune my equipment to shoot any fixed head I choose. I don't consider tuning a chore, but a challenge.
11-01-2010, 10:04 AM
#133
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 2,722
jakelogsdon
do you not understand how a 3 blade cutting a LOT more surface area HAS to lose more energy than a 2 blade with less cut and therefore cannot all things being the same outpenetrate it?
this isnt about choice of product - its about which truly gives you the best penetration qualities !
annika3 at this point, what we know is you say Rage is the company you helped develope, or the product anyway, and there is no way anything you say is believable because of your vested interest.
you've YET to comment on the videos - why? because they clearly show good shots and horrible penetration using a Rage - exactly opposite of what you claim.
you've yet to discuss the videos showing penetration tests by everyday bowhunters wanting to know side by side which is a better broadhead, and the Rage fails, over and over - exactly opposite of what you claim.
I've no vested interest in anything but bowhunters using the best equipment they can which will minimize the animals shot and lost.
Rage heads are proven - PROVEN - to be horrible at penetration qualities.
can they work? SURE
will they work? SURE
are they a good choice for a head to use when shots go bad?
I think its clear they're not - proven by the video's I posted
do you not understand how a 3 blade cutting a LOT more surface area HAS to lose more energy than a 2 blade with less cut and therefore cannot all things being the same outpenetrate it?
this isnt about choice of product - its about which truly gives you the best penetration qualities !
annika3 at this point, what we know is you say Rage is the company you helped develope, or the product anyway, and there is no way anything you say is believable because of your vested interest.
you've YET to comment on the videos - why? because they clearly show good shots and horrible penetration using a Rage - exactly opposite of what you claim.
you've yet to discuss the videos showing penetration tests by everyday bowhunters wanting to know side by side which is a better broadhead, and the Rage fails, over and over - exactly opposite of what you claim.
I've no vested interest in anything but bowhunters using the best equipment they can which will minimize the animals shot and lost.
Rage heads are proven - PROVEN - to be horrible at penetration qualities.
can they work? SURE
will they work? SURE
are they a good choice for a head to use when shots go bad?
I think its clear they're not - proven by the video's I posted
11-01-2010, 01:49 PM
#134
Fork Horn
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 159
Are they a good choice when shots go bad?? That is One of the dumbest questions I've ever heard! Why would you buy a broadhead with intentions on making a bad shot? You are setting yourself up for failure. Every single broadhead on the market has pros and cons. And never have I seen a broadhead designed to kill deer by making a less than accurate shot. I choose to shoot the rage two balde version not the three blade. As far as the penetration qualities, I would like you to please explain to me why I am not going to out penetrate your set up? With your bow and your broadhead. As for those videos. Perhaps those individuals should try something else. I don't know what their set ups were like. All I can do is speak for myself. Which is something you should consider doing once in a while.
11-01-2010, 05:59 PM
#135
Fork Horn
Join Date: May 2006
Location:
Posts: 414
jakelogsdon
do you not understand how a 3 blade cutting a LOT more surface area HAS to lose more energy than a 2 blade with less cut and therefore cannot all things being the same outpenetrate it?
this isnt about choice of product - its about which truly gives you the best penetration qualities !
annika3 at this point, what we know is you say Rage is the company you helped develope, or the product anyway, and there is no way anything you say is believable because of your vested interest.
you've YET to comment on the videos - why? because they clearly show good shots and horrible penetration using a Rage - exactly opposite of what you claim.
you've yet to discuss the videos showing penetration tests by everyday bowhunters wanting to know side by side which is a better broadhead, and the Rage fails, over and over - exactly opposite of what you claim.
I've no vested interest in anything but bowhunters using the best equipment they can which will minimize the animals shot and lost.
Rage heads are proven - PROVEN - to be horrible at penetration qualities.
can they work? SURE
will they work? SURE
are they a good choice for a head to use when shots go bad?
I think its clear they're not - proven by the video's I posted
do you not understand how a 3 blade cutting a LOT more surface area HAS to lose more energy than a 2 blade with less cut and therefore cannot all things being the same outpenetrate it?
this isnt about choice of product - its about which truly gives you the best penetration qualities !
annika3 at this point, what we know is you say Rage is the company you helped develope, or the product anyway, and there is no way anything you say is believable because of your vested interest.
you've YET to comment on the videos - why? because they clearly show good shots and horrible penetration using a Rage - exactly opposite of what you claim.
you've yet to discuss the videos showing penetration tests by everyday bowhunters wanting to know side by side which is a better broadhead, and the Rage fails, over and over - exactly opposite of what you claim.
I've no vested interest in anything but bowhunters using the best equipment they can which will minimize the animals shot and lost.
Rage heads are proven - PROVEN - to be horrible at penetration qualities.
can they work? SURE
will they work? SURE
are they a good choice for a head to use when shots go bad?
I think its clear they're not - proven by the video's I posted
Read my posts there little fella and no where did I claim "Rage is the best and everybody should be using them". What I have said is:
1. You have NEVER shot the head = TRUE
2. MY results with the 2-blade Rage have been all passthroughs shooting a average speed bow by today's standards.
3. MY belief is the Rage is the best head that I have shot in my 29 years of bowhunting
4. 100,000's of bowhunters use them so I have hard time believing we all can be wrong.
But you have tried to tell people who have had great success with the head that they are wrong. How does that make sense?
I will add one more thing: I have a hard time believing that out of the kindness of your heart that you go to such great lengths to help other hunters by bashing Rage BH's so extensively without some kind of alterior motive.
Last edited by annika3; 11-01-2010 at 06:09 PM.
11-02-2010, 05:52 AM
#136
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 2,722
jakelogsdon of course nobody want to make a bad shot ..... let me ask this, do you carry a spare tire expecting to have a flat?
shooting heavy arrows and COI fixed heads work when the shots go great, and when they go bad? they give you your best chances at still killing the animals
http://tradgang.com/noncgi/ultimateb...ubb=forum;f=24
everything you want to know about why arrows penetrate is in the above studies.
its not about KE and its not about speed - how an arrow penetrates has everything to do with weight and the structural dynamics of the arrow and head
small diameter arrows that are heavy, have loaded FOC and are tipped with a bomb proof COI 2 blade will give you the best penetration possible
here's an example
http://www.limcroma.com/bowhunting.htm
what does the above say?
" We recommend a fixed blade cut on impact. No mechanical broadheads "
why in the world not? If they're so great, why do many African PH's not allow them?
becuase they suck at penetration qualities.
now, you're not going to shoot a cape buffalo tonight ... but the fact remains mechanicals do not penetrate as well and how many threads do we have on here right now on animals shot, poorly hit, or lost or missed?
shots go bad - they do - you control up until the arrow leaves your riser, then any numbers of things can happen including hitting an unseen twig, the deer moving, misjudged yardages etc you know ?
=========
never will, I don't shoot broadheads that will fail me, I don't need to
what does speed matter?
well that's factually false - "best" would mean a combination or durability (Rage's are not durable) and excellent penetration qualites (Rage doesn't have that)
asbestos was used for a while and it was being sold as the greatest insulator every created. how'd that end up?
a sharp field point can kill deer - are they a good choice?
Rage marketed the product brilliantly
I killed a deer once with a Puckett's Bloodtrailer. Horrible head. I went 1 for 1, 100% success rate with it.
Do you understand that using junk can still work? Doesn't mean its a great idea.
I bash all mechanicals - Rage just in this thread. What alterior motive would that be annika? I own all fixed blade companies out there? LOL
I'm getting to be an older bowhunter, and my experiences over the past 25 years has some merit and meaning and I've chosen to be swayed by the latest and greatest archery gadgets etc and in the end? I found that the bowhunters who forged what bowhunting IS was right all along. Heavy arrows, big COI broadheads. that's it - that's the key, it always has been and companies selling light, fast, and gadget broadheads? they're just making money and bowhunters suffer for it by lost animals
sorry - look at the videos, watch Tiffany Lakosky as she shoots and gets a massive 6-8" penetration
......... look at all the threads going this season on bad hits, lost animals, mechanicals failing them again ....
this isn't made up stuff
shooting heavy arrows and COI fixed heads work when the shots go great, and when they go bad? they give you your best chances at still killing the animals
http://tradgang.com/noncgi/ultimateb...ubb=forum;f=24
everything you want to know about why arrows penetrate is in the above studies.
its not about KE and its not about speed - how an arrow penetrates has everything to do with weight and the structural dynamics of the arrow and head
small diameter arrows that are heavy, have loaded FOC and are tipped with a bomb proof COI 2 blade will give you the best penetration possible
here's an example
http://www.limcroma.com/bowhunting.htm
what does the above say?
" We recommend a fixed blade cut on impact. No mechanical broadheads "
why in the world not? If they're so great, why do many African PH's not allow them?
becuase they suck at penetration qualities.
now, you're not going to shoot a cape buffalo tonight ... but the fact remains mechanicals do not penetrate as well and how many threads do we have on here right now on animals shot, poorly hit, or lost or missed?
shots go bad - they do - you control up until the arrow leaves your riser, then any numbers of things can happen including hitting an unseen twig, the deer moving, misjudged yardages etc you know ?
=========
1. You have NEVER shot the head = TRUE
2. MY results with the 2-blade Rage have been all passthroughs shooting a average speed bow by today's standards.
3. MY belief is the Rage is the best head that I have shot in my 29 years of bowhunting
4. 100,000's of bowhunters use them so I have hard time believing we all can be wrong.
a sharp field point can kill deer - are they a good choice?
Rage marketed the product brilliantly
But you have tried to tell people who have had great success with the head that they are wrong. How does that make sense?
Do you understand that using junk can still work? Doesn't mean its a great idea.
I will add one more thing: I have a hard time believing that out of the kindness of your heart that you go to such great lengths to help other hunters by bashing Rage BH's so extensively without some kind of alterior motive.
I'm getting to be an older bowhunter, and my experiences over the past 25 years has some merit and meaning and I've chosen to be swayed by the latest and greatest archery gadgets etc and in the end? I found that the bowhunters who forged what bowhunting IS was right all along. Heavy arrows, big COI broadheads. that's it - that's the key, it always has been and companies selling light, fast, and gadget broadheads? they're just making money and bowhunters suffer for it by lost animals
sorry - look at the videos, watch Tiffany Lakosky as she shoots and gets a massive 6-8" penetration
......... look at all the threads going this season on bad hits, lost animals, mechanicals failing them again ....this isn't made up stuff
11-02-2010, 06:32 AM
#137
Fork Horn
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 159
I am following what your saying there guy. But you don't seem to be understanding what I'm saying. All the research in the world is not going to trump my personal experiences. And I have a broadhead that I like, with outstanding penetration qualities IMO! Especially for my set up and what I hunt. I shot fixed blades for about 5 years. I was pleased, but I was not content. I started to experiment with different heads. Had reasonable success with most, some not so much. I used the rage two blade and was impressed and will stick with it until I feel it fails me. Carrying a spare tire is not the samething as expecting to make a bad shot. Some things we have control over some things we don't. I believe I have control over where my arrow goes. If I didn't I should stay at the house. But yes i do know that stuff happens, and that stuff has happened to me while shooting a rage head. The deer moved, and i reamed the shoulder, guess what? The shoulder shattered and the arrow passed through and burried in the dirt. im not tiffany lakosky, i shoot my bow at 74lbs with a 30" draw length, lack of penetration has always been a non factor. However accuracy is a factor with my set up. So I stick with the rage two blade
11-02-2010, 06:51 AM
#138
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 2,722
jakelogsdon
I DO understand that when shots go good, a cheap Allen brand broadhead from Walmart, 3 for $7.99 will work just fine.
you've got ooodles of power with your setup, if you were shooting 700 grains total weight you'd knock deer down
Still, I cannot imagine knowing what I know now, and shooting a head that can fail me.
I'm shooting maybe 62# or so and total weight around 550 grains ... my mometum good, not ideal, but its where this bow I have seems to tune well to.
accuracy is a non-issue with so many good heads now on the market that fly field point accurate .... I choose 4 blade Slick Trick RazorTrick heads for this season. I wanted to go with a Steel Force Phat Head ... the Slick Tricks I got a deal on though and they look nasty, thick bladed, COI and steel ferrule ....
hopefully I'll be able to report success, I'm leaving for KS tomorrow
I DO understand that when shots go good, a cheap Allen brand broadhead from Walmart, 3 for $7.99 will work just fine.
you've got ooodles of power with your setup, if you were shooting 700 grains total weight you'd knock deer down
Still, I cannot imagine knowing what I know now, and shooting a head that can fail me.
I'm shooting maybe 62# or so and total weight around 550 grains ... my mometum good, not ideal, but its where this bow I have seems to tune well to.
accuracy is a non-issue with so many good heads now on the market that fly field point accurate .... I choose 4 blade Slick Trick RazorTrick heads for this season. I wanted to go with a Steel Force Phat Head ... the Slick Tricks I got a deal on though and they look nasty, thick bladed, COI and steel ferrule ....
hopefully I'll be able to report success, I'm leaving for KS tomorrow
11-02-2010, 03:28 PM
#139
Fork Horn
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 159
The problem with that mind set is if you get technical about it. Everything can fail on you. Do you use a fall away rest? Or do you fletch your own arrows? Do you take a practice shot from your treestand before every hunt. Cause those are all things waiting to go wrong. Bump your bow on the way to the stand. Drop away rest doesn't fall right cause it got cold and froze. Fletching comes off in mid flight. I got deer under me right now gotta go
11-02-2010, 06:11 PM
#140
Fork Horn
Join Date: May 2006
Location:
Posts: 414
I've done a lot of testing and shooting in my 29 years of bowhunting and I BELIEVE the RAGE BH to be the best BH I HAVE SHOT.
Is it alright for me to have my opinion Ranger 77? Are you the know all when it comes to BH's? If that was the case we would all be shooting exactly what you shot but strangly enough you chose NOT the BH you wanted to shoot but the one you got a better deal on. This is your quote below.
"I wanted to go with a Steel Force Phat Head ... the Slick Tricks I got a deal on"
Now for a guy that is preaching about BH's it seems strange to me that the only reason he is shooting the BH that he does is because he got a deal on it. Wouldn't you go with the one you wanted or the best one and not settle because you got a better deal?
Ranger, the asbestos thing doesn't fly with me. The problem with that analogy is we didn't know that asbestos was bad for us. With a Rage BH you see instant results and those results are getting 100,000's bowhunters shooting the head.
Again, Brag up your fixed heads and let everybody know how great they are but for a guy that HAS NEVER SHOT A RAGE or ANY MECHANICAL it's hard for anybody to give much credibility to what you have to say.
I'm leaving for Kansas so everybody good luck hunting with whatever you shoot!!
Is it alright for me to have my opinion Ranger 77? Are you the know all when it comes to BH's? If that was the case we would all be shooting exactly what you shot but strangly enough you chose NOT the BH you wanted to shoot but the one you got a better deal on. This is your quote below.
"I wanted to go with a Steel Force Phat Head ... the Slick Tricks I got a deal on"
Now for a guy that is preaching about BH's it seems strange to me that the only reason he is shooting the BH that he does is because he got a deal on it. Wouldn't you go with the one you wanted or the best one and not settle because you got a better deal?
Ranger, the asbestos thing doesn't fly with me. The problem with that analogy is we didn't know that asbestos was bad for us. With a Rage BH you see instant results and those results are getting 100,000's bowhunters shooting the head.
Again, Brag up your fixed heads and let everybody know how great they are but for a guy that HAS NEVER SHOT A RAGE or ANY MECHANICAL it's hard for anybody to give much credibility to what you have to say.
I'm leaving for Kansas so everybody good luck hunting with whatever you shoot!!