Not passing threw....Any thoughts?
10-27-2010, 11:24 AM
#121
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: SE Ohio
Posts: 2,531
Thunder, I wasn't trying to hijack your thread! I just thought it was the right time and place to ask. Thanks for taking the time to answer my question guys. What you are saying makes sense. And yes Ranger I did watch all the videos and I'll admit, I was perplexed by the lack of penetration. They all really looked like good shots.
Scottie,
In all honesty, you'd probably get BETTER performance out of a 400 grain arrow than the 300'ish because you have momentum on your side. If you can launch a 400gr arrow 290+ which you can if you're getting 325 out of the arrow you mention above, Rage, Slick Trick, Muzzy, or whatever BH you like should do the job if you put the arrow where it belongs, but we cannot deny that in the "independent tests," some BH's penetrate better than others, and RAGE is one of the ones that hasn't penetrated well, nor has it been very durable.
I just now watched the videos, and I was quite surpised at the very poor penetration that those 4 hunters got. Now I don't know how much energy they had in their set-ups, but that is part of the argument here that low energy set-ups really shouldn't be shooting the Rage BH's because they DO REQUIRE A LOT OF ENERGY to achieve pass-throughs. The one hunter was pretty honest and upfront about his feelings that the BH didn't do as well as he hoped for. I shot Wasp Jak-Hammers in a 1.75" for years, and passed through all but one animal, and that one I hit bad, REAL bad, but it still died in 75yds. I switched because I wanted something that was MORE DURABLE, and as a result more economical. Not that BH's are that big a part of my budget, but I wanted something that I could shoot more than a couple animals with before a ferule would be bent or blades would need replaced whatever. What I shoot now, I can sharpen, and re-use time after time, and they shoot right with my FP's AND do a great job penetrating. Mot of my set-ups have had over 70ft/# of KE with arrows between 415-465grains.
10-27-2010, 12:13 PM
#122
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 2,722
And yes Ranger I did watch all the videos and I'll admit, I was perplexed by the lack of penetration. They all really looked like good shots
why are those mechanical's not getting but a few inches penetration?
#1 is they're not designed for penetration - the qualities that make a head penetrate well just aren't there
#2 is light arrows
#1 and #2 will lost so many deer for you its not even funny - annika3 knows this as well as anyone, that's why the refusal to discuss it
energy set-ups really shouldn't be shooting the Rage BH's because they DO REQUIRE A LOT OF ENERGY to achieve pass-throughs
the poor penetration qualtiies come out and the deer is lost
10-28-2010, 03:56 PM
#123
Fork Horn
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Western NY
Posts: 148
To the original poster:
I will chime in my answer, although there were a lot of good points brought up already about how to get better penetration.
I would say the most important thing is an accurate shot. You should practice every day with 10 arrows, even during the season. This will give you confidence that your bow didn't get knocked out of whack somehow, and also make everything automatic when bucky is out there. Things tend to happen very fast, and lots of decisions are made in a short time. You want the process of sending an arrow out after the deer to be completely automatic. Those shoulder blades stop a lot of arrows from passing through, and a shoulder blade is always a bad shot.
What is tied in with an an accurate shot also is a well tuned bow. Hopefully you aren't like me several years ago when I needed my bow tuned and all the local pro shops wanted to do was adjust my grip! I learned all of this on my own, after hours and hours of reading, and then experimenting with my own bow. Easton has some wonderful articles talking about how to tune a bow, and they also have charts on a properly sized arrow. The arrow must be spined correctly - when fired from the bow it must give a little, but not too much. You are exactly like me years ago - WTF does spine mean? Also you must paper tune your bow, this will tell you exactly what the arrow is doing. When your arrows go in the target, are they slanted in a certain direction? This means they are not flying true, and will not have the penetration that is so important when it comes to killing a deer. Also, a bow can be tuned wrong but still not show it when shooting field tips - but paper tuning will reveal it. If you are shooting fixed blades, you must have some practice arrows with blades to ensure that they fly correctly at the target. Many times a bow slightly out of tune with field tips becomes a lot out of tune with broadheads.
And lastly, and I must admit I am surprised in a good way about this (by all the people on this forum who understand), you need to learn about momentum vs kinetic energy. Kinetic energy is very important because it talks about a bows energy, and also gives the bow manufacturers a reason to persuade you why this years model is better than last years. But when it comes to killing a deer, momemtum means everything. Put your house on some railroad tracks, and then send a freight train at full speed headed toward your house. It will crash through your house and then keep on going - that is basically what momentum means. Does that make sense? It is very very important when killing a deer because you want the arrow to crash through a tough hairy hide, sinew, tendons, and bone on it's way through. You want to shoot the heaviest arrow you can that will fly true - this may mean using 125 grain broadheads, heavy arrows, etc. This comes at a cost - you will no longer have the flat single pin shooting bow good out to 45 yards. Do any of your buddies shoot 75 grain broadheads? They are great for target shooting, but not for killing a deer. I used to use a lighter broadhead, until I learned what all of this stuff means. (after I lost a deer and was sick about it) I have to hold high at 30 yards when I shoot, but I always try and sit where the maximum shot I can actually take is 25 yards or less. A heavier arrow will hit harder every single time, kind of like some snottly little kid using a sling shot on you - with a plastic pellet vs a ball bearing.
It would be nice if every arrow went between ribs when going through both lungs, but your odds are high that you need to break a rib to go pass through. Ever hear that sound like a stick breaking when you shoot a deer? That is a rib snapping.
You will learn as you research this stuff that it all is a balance - a heavier arrow penetrates more, but requires the shooter to know his distances better when shooting. A mechanical broadhead may do more damage and be more forgiving on the entry hole, but requires a bow with more energy (higher draw strength) to do that damage. Given the same bow, I believe a fixed blade will penetrate more than a mechanical because some energy is lost when opening up- this is why higher poundage is required for mechanical broadheads. Holding a higher pound bow also means flatter shooting arrows, but at the same time, how long can you hold a higher pound bow still while bucky is making a scrape with his vitals behind a tree? Do you see what I mean by it all being a balance? And everyone has an opinion that is different - buy this broadhead, use that bow etc. My advice is to learn as much as you can, and then experiment with your bow.
And lastly, but certainly not least, whatever broadhead you use, it must be razor sharp. Don't even think about shooting a broadhead through a practice bale and then taking it out hunting. Those arteries in a deer are tough and thick, and you want the sharpest possible broadhead slicing through the artery, not just running along it.
I will chime in my answer, although there were a lot of good points brought up already about how to get better penetration.
I would say the most important thing is an accurate shot. You should practice every day with 10 arrows, even during the season. This will give you confidence that your bow didn't get knocked out of whack somehow, and also make everything automatic when bucky is out there. Things tend to happen very fast, and lots of decisions are made in a short time. You want the process of sending an arrow out after the deer to be completely automatic. Those shoulder blades stop a lot of arrows from passing through, and a shoulder blade is always a bad shot.
What is tied in with an an accurate shot also is a well tuned bow. Hopefully you aren't like me several years ago when I needed my bow tuned and all the local pro shops wanted to do was adjust my grip! I learned all of this on my own, after hours and hours of reading, and then experimenting with my own bow. Easton has some wonderful articles talking about how to tune a bow, and they also have charts on a properly sized arrow. The arrow must be spined correctly - when fired from the bow it must give a little, but not too much. You are exactly like me years ago - WTF does spine mean? Also you must paper tune your bow, this will tell you exactly what the arrow is doing. When your arrows go in the target, are they slanted in a certain direction? This means they are not flying true, and will not have the penetration that is so important when it comes to killing a deer. Also, a bow can be tuned wrong but still not show it when shooting field tips - but paper tuning will reveal it. If you are shooting fixed blades, you must have some practice arrows with blades to ensure that they fly correctly at the target. Many times a bow slightly out of tune with field tips becomes a lot out of tune with broadheads.
And lastly, and I must admit I am surprised in a good way about this (by all the people on this forum who understand), you need to learn about momentum vs kinetic energy. Kinetic energy is very important because it talks about a bows energy, and also gives the bow manufacturers a reason to persuade you why this years model is better than last years. But when it comes to killing a deer, momemtum means everything. Put your house on some railroad tracks, and then send a freight train at full speed headed toward your house. It will crash through your house and then keep on going - that is basically what momentum means. Does that make sense? It is very very important when killing a deer because you want the arrow to crash through a tough hairy hide, sinew, tendons, and bone on it's way through. You want to shoot the heaviest arrow you can that will fly true - this may mean using 125 grain broadheads, heavy arrows, etc. This comes at a cost - you will no longer have the flat single pin shooting bow good out to 45 yards. Do any of your buddies shoot 75 grain broadheads? They are great for target shooting, but not for killing a deer. I used to use a lighter broadhead, until I learned what all of this stuff means. (after I lost a deer and was sick about it) I have to hold high at 30 yards when I shoot, but I always try and sit where the maximum shot I can actually take is 25 yards or less. A heavier arrow will hit harder every single time, kind of like some snottly little kid using a sling shot on you - with a plastic pellet vs a ball bearing.
It would be nice if every arrow went between ribs when going through both lungs, but your odds are high that you need to break a rib to go pass through. Ever hear that sound like a stick breaking when you shoot a deer? That is a rib snapping.
You will learn as you research this stuff that it all is a balance - a heavier arrow penetrates more, but requires the shooter to know his distances better when shooting. A mechanical broadhead may do more damage and be more forgiving on the entry hole, but requires a bow with more energy (higher draw strength) to do that damage. Given the same bow, I believe a fixed blade will penetrate more than a mechanical because some energy is lost when opening up- this is why higher poundage is required for mechanical broadheads. Holding a higher pound bow also means flatter shooting arrows, but at the same time, how long can you hold a higher pound bow still while bucky is making a scrape with his vitals behind a tree? Do you see what I mean by it all being a balance? And everyone has an opinion that is different - buy this broadhead, use that bow etc. My advice is to learn as much as you can, and then experiment with your bow.
And lastly, but certainly not least, whatever broadhead you use, it must be razor sharp. Don't even think about shooting a broadhead through a practice bale and then taking it out hunting. Those arteries in a deer are tough and thick, and you want the sharpest possible broadhead slicing through the artery, not just running along it.
10-29-2010, 07:03 AM
#124
Fork Horn
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Upstate New York
Posts: 411
Ding Ding Ding Ding Ding Ding Ding Ding
10-29-2010, 09:00 AM
#126
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 2,722
if you're going to be in western Kansas next week let me know ... I will be and we'll do beer's and Rage-bashing 
Tiffany is a gorgeous woman - I mean I love many things about how she looks and how she talks and presetns herself etc. I hate that her bowhunting setup is as unethical at it is, and the pathetic shot penetrations she so often gets. its bad - and I bet she loses as many animals as she show kills
Tiffany is a gorgeous woman - I mean I love many things about how she looks and how she talks and presetns herself etc. I hate that her bowhunting setup is as unethical at it is, and the pathetic shot penetrations she so often gets. its bad - and I bet she loses as many animals as she show kills
10-29-2010, 07:35 PM
#127
Fork Horn
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 159
You guys are so funny. I am not going to tell you what to shoot. But somehow I get the feeling that you think I'm a moron for shooting rage heads. I have and will always use what works the best for me and my set up. I have been using the rage head for four years now. And have not once had a bad experience, I will add that I am extremely disciplined in my shot selection. Incidently my reasons for staying with the rage are my own, but I do like the blood trails, and the accuracy and way the head flys. I will also be the first to say about their marketing that if it were not for Mark and Terry Drury I would have never tried them , so product pushing was benificial for me there.
10-31-2010, 04:29 AM
#128
Fork Horn
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Western NY
Posts: 148
Like you said use what works the best for you. Good luck out there!
10-31-2010, 05:28 AM
#129
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 2,722
jakelogsdon - you're choose a broadhead that has terrible penetration qualities and is known to now "open up" as well as the countless threads on guys who've lost deer to these broadheads
why would anyone say anything about using a broadhead like that?
seriosuly though - you realize you're shooting a head that has horrible penetration qualities, so its a little like Russian Roulette ... eventually a not so perfect hit and a poor broadhead will result in a lost deer. Your choice ...
Rage will work fine (it it deploys) on perfect shots
on less than perfect shots, it will have troubles because of the design
why would anyone say anything about using a broadhead like that?
seriosuly though - you realize you're shooting a head that has horrible penetration qualities, so its a little like Russian Roulette ... eventually a not so perfect hit and a poor broadhead will result in a lost deer. Your choice ...
Rage will work fine (it it deploys) on perfect shots
on less than perfect shots, it will have troubles because of the design
10-31-2010, 06:44 AM
#130
Fork Horn
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 159
Ranger, what kind of truck do you drive? Because odds are there is someone out there that says it sucks balls, and probably has evidence to back it up. What does that mean to you? Nothing, right? Just like all the crap you've been blabbing means nothing to me. My father always told me I learn all my lessons the hard way, and he was right! So I will stick with what I know until it fails me.
Last edited by jakelogsdon; 10-31-2010 at 06:51 AM.
