What trade off in let off?
 

Piggy-backing with the thread polling shooters as to their let-off %, I have a question. What is the relationship of let-off to kinetic energy released...if there even is one? Obviously the bow shooter gains the ability to hold the full draw for a longer and more steady period of time. But what (if anything) is lost by stepping up to the higher let-offs. Quietness? Vibration? Ability to hold a tune?
I ask this mostly because I' m going to be upgrading sometime (been saying that for 3 years now) and want to be an educated and informed hunter/consumer when I bite the bullet for a new rig.
For example' s sake, what for instance is the difference between my old wheel bow (PSE Laser) at 35% let-off compared to a bow with fast cams and an 80% let-off. and lets say they are both set at a 65# draw weight. Which is faster, which is quieter, which produces the most energy? If this has already been covered maybee somebody could direct me to the thread that covered it.

RE: What trade off in let off?
 

If you take two bows of the same model and all things are equal except the let off. One at 65% and one at 85% you will be sacraficing a little bit of speed with the higher let off as it would store slightly less energy in the draw curve.

RE: What trade off in let off?
 

Thanks bigbulls. I guess not surprised that there wouldn' t be much difference between a 65% and a 85% let-off...........But what can I expect when I jump from my 35% let-off dinosaur wheel bow to a modern cam bow with a 65% let-off?
Do you think I will have any significant change in noise, vibration etc......??

RE: What trade off in let off?
 

The newer bows and cams are much more efficent and store energy much better than the old bows and cams / wheels did. They will be much faster than the bows of 10 - 15 years ago. The newer bows are designed much better when it comes to reducing noise and vibration (paralell limbs, better metals, better limb materials, better string materials, etc...) than older bows were so you will probably experiance less noise and vibration.

A good example is while I was at the pro shop shooting the ither day. I have a Parker UL35 and the one other guy there shooting had a Bear bow about 10 years old. We just happend to be shooting the same Gold tip arrows. I was getting 276 fps @ 70 pounds he was getting 262 fps @ 80 pounds. My bow was much quieter also. We both had limb savers and string silencers installed as well as avtive stabilizers.

RE: What trade off in let off?
 

Well that does it now!!!!!!
I guess I will have to bite the bullet.
I am looking for a bow that will have excellent characteristics of holding a tune, and will also be very quiet. Speed is not paramount to me.....I' ve been doing ok each year with my old bow that barely chugs along. I have a pretty long draw length....but I know this will be less of an issue when I switch from fingers to a release.
Any suggestions on a quality bow that tends to be quiet, by today' s standards....and one that holds a tune.... and one towards the middle of the price spectrum.....
A couple years ago folks were steering me towards a Hoyt bow, can' t remember the model... maybe a Hoyt Sport?? Can' t remember

RE: What trade off in let off?
 

Since bows can run from about $200 to $1000 I figure about $400 to $600 is about middle of the road. There are a lot of choices out there for that money.

Parker, all of them
Mathews, some bows
Hoyt, most bows
Martin, about all of their line
Pearson, about all of their line
PSE, most of their line
Jennings, all of their line.
Reflex all of their bows

You need to decide what are important characteristics that you want. Axel to axel length, brace height, single or dual cam, weight, etc... Most all of todays bows are going to be pretty quiet and if one is a little louder than another it certainly can be made quiet with all of the accessories available today. Using a realease you can certainly go with a shorter bow and still get a good shooting bow.

The biggest thing in " keeping a tune" that I have found is the string streching. I bought a Winners Choice string and cable and have been extremely happy with the lack of tuning that I have had to do this past year.

RE: What trade off in let off?
 

Thanks bigbulls,
I am expecting to make a purchase in the next 6-8 months. I will spend some time in several archery pro shops " trying on" some bows for size and feel.
Heck, I' ve waited over 20 years since buying my first and only bow so far......I guess I can take my time shopping.

RE: What trade off in let off?
 

One caution about going to the very high letoffs is they make it very easy to torque the bow. Pick up your old bow and draw it to anchor, hold anchor then, by flexing your wrist, try to twist the handle side to side. By that, I mean like you' re facing a wall and trying to make the stabilizer point at the walls on either side. See how far you can actually move it. Then go to the shop and do the same thing with a high letoff bow with a reflexed riser.

But be careful to not twist that new one so far that the string pops out of the tracks on the cam(s).

That should give you a good feeling for how much better your form will have to be to shoot those high letoff bows well.

RE: What trade off in let off?
 

Thank you Arthur,
I am not planning on going to a" High' let-off bow. Course, everything is gonna feel like HIGH let-off to me after shooting a 35% let-off for nearly 22 years. I drew/held my huntin partner' s new bow last year (he just upgraded too!) and I couldn' t believe how long and steady I could stay on target. With my 35% let-off I had developed a routine where I would come up to, but not beyond my target. As I approached the desired target on the up-swing I slowed and calmed and steadied the bow. I learned to release as the pin " touched" my decired POI. It has served me well for the past 20-some years. But man-Oh-man what that 65% let-off is gonna do for my ability to take a few more shots. As it is now, if I have to hold my 35% let-off for more than 20 seconds I MUST let up and rest.

RE: What trade off in let off?
 

Another " trade off" on higher letoff bows, is the greater difficulty in maintaining proper back tension, when using them. When going to a sharp letoff, it can be a natural tendency to reduce back tension and allow the string to creep forward. Not only does this cause some eradict shooting, but it can put some pretty good stress on the shoulder when the newer, harder cams grab hold. Also, the reduction in back tension can lead to " punching" the trigger if you use a release.

RE: What trade off in let off?
 

20 seconds is an eternity. Shouldn' t anyone be holding draw for 20 seconds, no matter what the circumstance. Especially when they' re in the group in font of me on the 3D course!!!;) I don' t know why anyone would want to hold a bow at full draw that long. Unless....

If you' re talking about drawing and holding for a couple of minutes while waiting for a deer to come into range, that' s what I' ve been talking about on the crossbow thread. That' s why I call a lot of today' s compounds ' crossbow lites' . That' s why I say compound shooters that do that stuff don' t have an ounce of room to talk about crossbows. Crossbows aren' t drawn in the immediate presence of game, but neither are compounds when they' re used that way.

RE: What trade off in let off?
 

I agree that 20 seconds is an eternity....especially with my old bow. It is something I have done on only a few occassions and only b/c a great shot seemed to be ready to present itself....just never did. In most cases I was able to draw again when the deer and I settled back down. Normally from draw to shot is about 2-6 seconds.
My point was that a hunter' s ability to hold a bow without jeopardizing his shot is expanded when shooting a 65% let-off as opposed to a 35% let-off.
I seem to one of the very few still shooting such an old bow.

BTW, I just pulled my bow back and tried holding it......I obviously over guessed my ability.......by 9-10 seconds I couldn' t be sure of anything my arrow might do. even so...I would expect that to " grow" by going to the higher (65%) let-off.

RE: What trade off in let off?
 

Arthur, I' ll give you an example of when you have to hold for a minute or more sometimes.

Elk hunting and a bull is coming in. You draw your bow just as he is walking behind a tree or bush at 25 yards so you can take an easy shot just as he steps out. Well he doesn' t want to cooperate and decides to have a look around before continuing on his path. You have no shot and can' t let down the bow because the only thing visible on the elk is his head and neck and he would surely see you if you twiched. You have two options. #1 keep holding at full draw hoping that he will take just one step or #2 let down and say by by to that big 6X6.

The very same thing happens with whitetails also.

I am glad that I have a very light bow with 80% let off just for this reason.

The differance between a 65% and 80% bow at 70 pound draw weight is 10 pounds. How long can you hold 14 pounds verses 24 pounds?

There are trade offs to take into consideration but for me a high let off bow works better.

RE: What trade off in let off?
 

Good example.

With my longbow, I hunker down while he' s behind the bush and wait to draw until he steps out and exposes his chest, hit anchor and the arrow is on it' s way in less than two seconds. And all the time I' m hoping he doesn' t see the movement of the draw. It' s NOT an easy shot, but that' s bowhunting.

You, on the other hand, drew while he was behind the bush and couldn' t possibly see the draw. You' re sitting there holding a drawn bow until the shot is presented. It' s a very intelligent approach that definitely stacks more of the cards in your favor, but... Isn' t the number one argument against crossbows that an animal has the chance to catch the bowhunter' s movement when he draws and the crossbow is predrawn so there is no drawing motion? What you do in your example is not so very different from using a crossbow.

I hope you can see the fundamental difference that I' m trying to show.

RE: What trade off in let off?
 

ARTHUR P

Lets say that bull stood there for 3 min could you hold a bow that long, I douht
it, you could a crossbow. Lets say you let your draw down after 2 min and
the bull steped out just then could you draw again? dont have to worry about
that with a crossbow.

RE: What trade off in let off?
 

jag-mag, yes, I can hold full draw for that long with a 75-80% letoff compound. No trick. In fact, I went 12 minutes at full draw once (McPherson SoloLite, 80% letoff, 70 pounds draw, Scott Mongoose release) just to see how long I could hold it. Could have held a lot longer but it got flat boring and besides, there was this grasshopper crawling up the target face....

RE: What trade off in let off?
 

8mm...I' d look at a PSE Thunderbolt. It' s a very nice bow, easy to tune, fairly fast, quiet, etc...just an all around good mid price bow(around $300). It has an adjustable let-off 65-80...(I' d recommend 65%). That should fit your bill, and will be miles ahead of what you have now I' m sure...plus it won' t break the bank. Good luck :)

RE: What trade off in let off?
 

WV Hunter,
Thanks for the tip. I intend to get into some pro-shops and try quite a few bows, but anything that can help narrow my search is a plus.

RE: What trade off in let off?
 

Have you ever hunted elk? Have you ever hunted public land bulls? If you answered yes to both of the questions then whats your success rate? I have to ask because you sound like you' ve either never hunted big bulls or you are extremely lucky. Many shots on bulls must take place when his view is obstructed and you have to wait until he steps out. This sometimes takes several seconds.

Right now you may be asking what makes elk different? Well I' ll tell you. When deer hunting you' re sitting in a treestand waiting for an unsuspecting deer to walk by. You draw, shoot and take the pictures. With elk 99% when hunting with a bow you must call them in. When they are coming in you are at ground level and in thier line of sight. Second you are already drawing attention to your general location by calling. Third that bull is looking for something when hes coming in so he expects to see something, hes on alert. So if you draw while hes looking around, " poof" nothing but a dust trail left to shoot at. So elk hunting 101 says wait till hes behind something to draw. Sometimes he hangs though and his head exposed but not the chest cavity.

Every once in a while you' ll be able to draw and shoot as simple as you put it but if you rely on that. Expect your freezer to be empty nearly every year.

RE: What trade off in let off?
 

Exactly RBH.

A bull elk is looking for you and any movement that you make he will se it. By BY to Mr. elk.

RE: What trade off in let off?
 

8mm, you' re not the only one with an old bow. I have an old one that I think is from about 1976, judging from anything I can find. I do get a little laughed at in bow shops and such. Usually the employees hold back but the customers are a little more vocal. I have a 33% letoff, and I agree with it being quite difficult to hold, but I think I' m getting up to about that 20 second mark. I just hope I don' t get old.

I' ve been kind of planning to get a new bow also but I kind of like my 48" axle to axle length, except in the tree stand, or brush, the truck cab, ...I just can' t bring myself to spend $300-400 on a new bow just yet.

RE: What trade off in let off?
 

Short-range,
Welcome to the old-bow club (it currently has 2 members, you and me) My bow is from around 1980, and is a PSE Laser, 35% let-off, 2 round wheels rather than any eccentrics. It is smooth, fairly quiet when I keep it tightened, waxed and lubed, and I get good groups but keep my shots within 23 yards. But holding it is a bear. I can HOLD it for 20 seconds easy, but holding it for 20 seconds and being able to get off a relaxed good shot is another story. I held my bow the other night to check and see when I thought my form and concentration started to wane. About 10-11 seconds and I was sure that I would be hurting my shot and chancing wounding rather than killing a deer. Mentally, I went over my typical shots from draw to release, and I' m pretty sure I usually release within 5-6 seconds of coming to full draw. Course, with the bow at around 67# and with a 35% let-off I' m trying to hold 44 pounds.....WITH FINGERS.
I' m looking forward to a new bow....it' ll have to wait for a little while though.

RE: What trade off in let off?
 

Mine is an old Wing Archery Impact that is supposed to be 65# but has dropped a few pounds over the years to about 62-63 with a 33% letoff. Although my bow is huge it really seems lighter than many of the new bows on the market. I use a release, and I got a fancy new rest this year. I think I will get a new sight next year, then maybe buy a new bow another year after that, and move all my parts over to it.

I have found that I either need to shoot in the first 8 seconds, or wait a little while until my arm quits shaking (too tired?) around the 15 second mark(with great concentration) but then it is a short window again before letting down. Like many others say, I play around out further at 35-40 yds, but I really have no plans to shoot anything out there. I can keep things pretty good at 25yds though.