It's Hard to Understand Some "Pro" Shops.
 

Got a phone call from a guy asking me if I could work on his bow. I said sure, bring it up.

Well he walks in with a new Reezen. Good I thought, I get to shoot one. (more on that later).

I asked him what the issue was and he said that he had it in a local shop and the shop owner said he needed a couple days with it and will have it tuned. He said he brought it home and is running out of vertical adjustments on his sight.

I put it in my vice and said, first it's obvious it's nock low and arrow is pointed out away from the riser. He said, are you kidding me? (another astonishment that people don't look their equipment over, I mean it was obvious. People should be able to eye ball center and level.)

Needless to say, I sent my levels to WY with my Air Raid so I had to do with others. Long story short, after setting him up proper, a couple shots later and he couldn't hardly believe the difference.

Now I understand even more of some of the horror stories that come out of "pro" shops. This Reezen could have seriously been considered a sucky bow because of it's shops set up.

Now to the bow. It shot really nice, smooth draw. More shock than some of my Bowtechs and the owner was actually surprised at that too. Still don't like the thick grip but a very, very nice bow. I shot his arrow through my Admiral and it had the same speeds. I thought the Reezen was a speed bow? My 82nd blew it away at less poundage.

I guess it amazes me to this day that when someones bow doesnt shoot well it becomes a "sucky" bow..when it is all about the set up.

Your comment on broadhead flight has made me not accept "average" but go back to the drawing board and find the error.

I agree, that not all pro shops are created equal and quality workmanship and advise is very hard to come by.

The Reezen is a speed bow-- FOR A SINGLE CAM.. the 82nd airborn is also a "speed" bow, but its also dual cam... it BETTER "blow" the Reezen away..

Apples to oranges rob.. Come on brother..

may i ask the speed you got out of the two bows? the numbers we're getting out of the reezen 6.5 @70lbs with speedpromax arrows are ASTOUNDING, i can't believe it's being "blown away" by much out there....

His Reezen at 65lbs shot his Maxima at 277 fps, my 82nd at 62 lbs shot it 297 fps. The arrow weighed in at 376 grains. (Same draw 28.5".

It is what it is. This thread is/wasn't intended for a VS thread. Relax boys.

I have seen it alot.One of the reasons I want to open a shop and give people the kind of service to help them be the best they can be.Too many shops are about the sell and don't have the knowledge to actually be of any help.

Good bow shops are priceless, bad ones are hell...

Years ago, I took a bow into one to have a new string put on if I remember right...Anyway, I also got a dozen arrows and had a new rest put on...I received a call later in the week that my cams needed new bushings (I don't even know if they had bushings)...Anyway the next weekend, I picked it up and paid the bill and went home...A couple of weeks later I realized that his "dozen" were 11 arrows...This made me think about those bushings...

I never returned, he went out of business, seems others had issues as well...

You mean you actually got it to tune?

The Reezens have got to be the most difficult to tune bows I have seen in a long long time.

The only way we have had much luck getting a reezen to tune has been by using a whisker biscuit. What rest was on that one?

I visited a BowTech proshop this afternoon--the first one I've ever been in--and although, I didn't shoot any, I was surprised by zomethings the ownder said. For instance, he stated that Bowtechs shoot faster than Mathews bows, and that Mathews LIES about their speed. To be honest, I've always been under the impression that IBO speeds are inflated by all manufacturers, but he says BowTech is the only one that doesn't lie about their speeds.

He also said that anyone shooting a DXT would be lucky to get 270fps out of one. Like I said, I didn't shoot any Bowtechs on that day, but I do know the bowtech is one smooth shooting bow. I have, however, shot every Mathews bow currently out, including the DXT and it will definitely shoot faster than 270.

Although, I think Mathews and Bowtech are two of the finest bows made, I realize the debate on which is better will go on forever, but you can tell the difference between a dealer that's blowing smoke up your rear-end, and one that tells the truth regardless of what he sells, and have more respect for the latter.

Its IBO for the reezen is still 340 regardless of the cam system... The IBO for the 82nd is 350. The Admirals is 320ish....

TFOX, I wish you would open up a shop:biggrin:

All archers should, at the very least, know how to setup and maintain their bows and arrows. Nock height and centershot are just not that hard. Neither is getting the arrow spined correctly and tuning the bow and arrow together. I am constantly amazed at the numbers that have been bowhunting for years and don't have the faintest idea about these basics.

It's possible most pro shops have no head for business and really don't care to, it's not their primary source for income. They are just you (not in skills obviously) with a title and they charge. More like a garage sale that people for some reason pay retail prices at.

The thing that doesn't make any sense is it's not difficult at all to do it right. Guy just lost a customer (s) and a potential friend (s). Makes no sense at all.

Oddly bigbulls, it had on a WB. :eek2:

I agree guys, wouldn't you think one would simply just take pride in their work? I've had guys here that told me to actually open a shop. My answer is, I just don't want the hassle. I'll try to help people out one at a time.

I'd **** too many people off too when they walked through the door a week before the season asking to set up their bow for the first time so they could hunt. I'd tell them to get out. LOL j/k. :action-smiley-099:

I'm lucky to have a good tech nearby.The guy actually went to both the Bowtech and PSE factories and was trained over several days on setting up,fine tuning etc.He has the diplomas on the shop walls.

What makes the Rezeen so hard to tune? I don't have my own shop but I set alot of bows up for people. I have done about 15 bows so far this year. I have not had any Rezeens to set up so I want to know before someone brings one to me.

I like shooting the bows also after I set them up. That way I know what each bow shoots like, it helps when I go to purchase one.

I have shot some bows that are advertises that they have no shock and all kinds of speed that really were terrible bows in my opinion. I have also shot low end bows that don't get the advertisement and they are really great bows. It also helps me point people in the right direction when buying a new bow. No everyone wants $1000 to $1500 wrapped up in a bow.

Talking about "Pro Shops", I went to our local shop and saw the "pro" mount a prong style rest backwards. He had it on the front of the bow with the prongs pointing towards the shooter. I really like supporting the local small business owner whenever possible but this guy is an idiot.

The Reezen def does not adhere to typical Mathews (singlecam) setup-

1) For many years Mathews has had the standard of 13/16" out from the riser for centershot. It used to be you could set it to that and assuming an appropriately spined arrow, arrow flight was on the money. The Reezen tunes quite a bit further in-5/8" is more common.

2) the Extreme reflex in the riser, makes it a bit more difficult than many other Mathews bows as well-if you have the typical problem of torquing a Mathews grip, it's really going to be an issue on the Reezen.

3) Idler wheel lean is more critical as well. It needs to be dead nuts- most of the other Mathews bows are a bit more forgiving in this regard. A twist or two out on one side can cause havoc.


Being that even when centershot and idler lean is corerct your sight pins are going to be way off center (I've yet to see one that isn't), I'd say the bow may have some issues with horizontal nock travel. A Whisker biscuit would definitely help tame this.

I'll say this- when the bow is on the money, and the archer is on the money, the bow is scary accurate- but it is a finnicky beast.

I have to agree
 

I have to agree with Bruce on this statement.

Also if you open any kind of shop no matter how good you are people never really want to pay, at least not enough for you to make a descent profit. Most will just go to the big box stores and shoot their untuned bows to save a dollar.

i wont use any so called pro shops here in the UK first there orientated towards target archery and the last guy that came to our field archery club after buying from a shop over here had the wrong arrows for his bow the wrong draw length and a realease rest while shooting fingers

it was just a matter for the shop of taking his money and getting rid of him he told me the shops name and i have heard many bad reports about them but there still going if i had the money and time i would start my own i at least know how to look at an arrow chart and set up a bow been doing it for a long time now but i cant believe how much they dont care over here
thats part of the reason i buy all my gear from the states and the internet i should mention i had three shops back home in australia

I have not done all of the measurements that Jeff has done but i would say this assessment is right on the money.

I would say that a huge part of it is the combination of the two hi-lighted statements that Jeff made above.

I have had several Reezens that absolutely would not tune with a drop away rest no matter what we did to the bow and/or rest. Grab the grip and torque it hard to the right and they would shoot a good hole through paper but if you shot them with a relaxed open grip you would get about a 2" horizontal tear in paper.

Did you ever try going to a really stiff arrow? Sometimes bows with bad nocktravel and or "speed" bows just need stiffer arrows than they "should".

These kinds of issues are yet another reason I have been a big fan of arrow rest that stay up longer.A whammy or limbdriver might also help these bows tune.

Yeah, we have used 340 and 300 spined arrows. We still get the same results as we do with lighter spined arrows.

The funny thing is that we can get a monster to tune just fine... Even with a Gold Tip 55/75 but the reezens are a PITA.
I think this is why the WB works so well with the reezen. We have been able to get half way decent results with the Mathews down force.

agreed-tried .300 spined arrows on a Reezen at 65-70 pounds-same issues whether a QAD or the Limbdriver.

And double agreed-standard Monster and XLR8 tune up easy-no issues (though it def likes a stiff arrow)

A Reezen @ 70#'s and 30" actually requires a stiffer shaft than a .300.

Now add bad nock travel and a torquey grip,a .250 may be needed even at shorter draw lengths and lower poundages.

This is ASSUMING the bow actually reaches IBO specs which is doubtfull.


This is the biggest problem with most true speed bows today.Arrow manufactuers are going to have to start making more shafts for these true speed bows.

There are a few but how many shops actually carry them?

It has been my experience over the years that any pro shop that has been in business more than 5 years will not produce crappy workmanship like Rob described in the orginial post. Otherwise they would have been run out on a rail inside of 3 years.

I don't know if you knew this guy or not, but in my experience here, quite often a customer will have monkeyed with a bow A LOT, and after toying with it to no avail, will bring it to another shop swearing up and down that they had it over at XYZ shop and they messed it all up. I guess it saves them face.

I do have a sign back by the press (hidden from public view) that reads: "ARCHERY PRO SHOP LABOR RATES: $60/HOUR.....$75/HOUR IF YOU WATCH.....$100/HOUR IF YOU HELP.... $150/HOUR IF YOU WORKED ON IT FIRST." Of course, this is meant as a joke.

I have personally seen this happen as well. I have a couple good friends who work regular jobs (one in the Navy, another a mechanic) that work over at Bass Pro in the archery department part time. They are both quite comepetent bow techs too and I'd recommend either of them to someone in a heartbeat..... and they recommend our shop to folks several times a day. Anyway, I brought one of them a new set of cams for his Hoyt he ordered and stopped by at BPS just to say hey. A guy came walking up with a newish looking 82nd Airborne and said, "I swear I'll never go to Wilcox again! They got my bow shooting all backwards. I just picked it up from there... cost me a mint.... shot it at the range and its shooting cork screws....." I held my tounge and looked the bow over. There are two main techs at our shop.... Tom... who is flat out amazing when it comes to bows.... and myself.... who ain't no slouch either. We do things exactly the same way, so that no matter which of us works on your bow... the look and quality is uniform. We tie knots and do things differently than any other shop I've ever seen.... I recognize my own work.... and considering 15 minutes prior I had been at the shop and never seen this guy or his bow before.... he was clearly full of what made the bull famous. My friend at BPS let him know as much before I asked him who he had spoken with at our shop.... he said he couldn't remember his name.... middle aged guy.... kinda tall... he said.... ... nobody like that works there...... Tom is 50 years old.... 5' 7" and bald.... and I'm 26... look like I'm 21 and I am tall. This dude, it turns out... hadn't ever hardly set foot in our place..... and yet here he was bad mouthing us..... don't know where his bow came from or who worked on it..... but it for sure wasn't who he claimed it was.


And if a Reezen and an Admiral shot the same weight arrow, at the same draw weight, and same draw length at the same speed.... either somebody or somebody's chronograph is woefully mistaking. The Admiral is the quietest, most shock free bow right out of the box I've ever shot... but it ain't no speed demon..... and its draw is stiffer than the Reezen's (thanks to its short limbs). Compared to most Mathews bows.... the Reezen is quite a departure from the norm.... and while it has grown on me a bit.... I'll still be carrying a Drenalin in the woods. Everybody has their own favorites.... and nobodys favorite is ever wrong.... variety......its the spice of life.

Please do tell. I don't know of any that are actually in the "affordable" price range or that have a name that people recognize that would make it worth while for a general pro shop to stock.

I know, I know it doesn't make any sense.... people spend $1200 on a bow set up and want to shoot cheap $40 arrows. They also don't want to buy the "fastest single cam" bow on the market and weigh it down with a super heavy carbon arrow. You know that the average "Joe hunter" knows everything. :confused0024:

Gold Tip makes the Big Game with a .280 spine. Any others?


I like that. :rock:

Easton FMJ's dangerous game is the only other that I personally know of but I am sure there are more.

I should mention a few aluminums are stiff enough but they are getting fewer and further between all the time.

That's why I stated it as a problem.General public wants speed,especially when buying a speed bow,but the arrows aren't built for them (atleast not for the long draw,heavy poundage guys)

Same chrono for both bows Swampie, :p It may very well be off but then it was off for both bows. Either his Reezen was a dud or my Admiral is exceptional. :s1: I was quite surprised. Thus my shock and wondering. I assumed the Reezen was faster, probably is but not that one. :deer:

My chrono matches what most others say they get from their bows and what my birth certs say when my bows come in. It's a phenomenon. LOL

It was spot on with my General your chrono bs my shop chrono where i go so if it's off then it's off directly in line with my pro shops

Nice Post!

Good post Swampcollie!

I have spent a lot of time watching Tom Wilcox work on bows and he is a wizard. If you live within driving distance of Newport News, it is worth the time to go to Wilcox Bait and Tackle!

After two years of watching him, I finally figured out how to mimic his peep tying:

Pretty work Kevin.... thats the way we roll.

This is true Rob... you can call it 100 or you can call it 300.... but equal is equal.

Based on the ones I've shot (be them at 29") that admiral is about on course.... When we first got them, the one I set up and tested was shooting low to mid 280s with a 390gr arrow at 70#s, I remember doing the math and it coming out right at IBO listed speeds (which for some reason is a range of about +/- 8 fps). For a Reezen... that one is a dud..... big time. 277 at 28.5 with a high 300s gr arrow.... 65#s.... I'd of expected mid to high 280s. I have guys shooting 30" 55# Reezens with 380gr arrow weights in the upper 290s.

Chronoed a 6.5 Reezen last week- 28" cam (of course they run nearly an inch long) -71 lbs- loop, tie in nock and meta peep- 393 grain arrow @ 298 FPS. Shops 351 gr arrow @ 314 FPS. Cam rotation and specs were on the money

For comparison sake, my old Admiral with meta peep, 28.5" setting (about 28.75 AMO), 71 pounds. meta peep, big loop, brass nock and stock silencers shot the shops 351 grain arrow @ 300 on the nose.

Feel of the draw for the two is pretty similar until you get into the 29 & 30" range, and then the Reezen loads up a bit more at the back end, IME. At my draw length the Admiral may be a touch smoother- hard to say- both cam systems are a PITA to draw if you ask me, and when our 30/70 Omen arrived Friday I told everyone @ the shop they can go you know what themselves ;) The 29/70 was bad enough and I couldn't care less how fast the 30 is (I'm the only person in the shop who doesnt have a health issue/blown out shoulders/tendonitis-so I'm the shop "draw boy" for all the heavy poundage/beastly bows)

i no that feeling, i took my girlfriends bow to bass pro one night just to get some pluffy silencers put on it. they tied one on the right way and zip tied the other one on. i thought i was goin to kill the guy

His shift was ending and he had a hot date.:poke::s2: