Wolf Update
04-20-2009, 07:58 PM
#1
Fork Horn
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 349
Wolf Update
Just thought that I would let everyone know that the wolf issue will be back in court; guaranteed when it is allowed. I talked with a guy (very informative and a long history in wildlife politics) and he said his organization is planning on taking the wolf issue back to court. They are either going to want each state to change something in their management plan or the mechanism in which the process has happened getting the wolves de-listed be reviewed. The guy is not going to be a part of the court case at all, but the organization he works for is. Something like this is going to have to show some type of science on why a certain states management plan is not good for the wolf or prove the delisting mechanism used to de-list the wolves was different than what was used to put the wolves on the ESA. Species have to be put on and taken off the ESA using the same process and such. He told me that the wolves will be in the courts for the next few years, but it is up to the courts to decide if the wolves should stay listed or de-listed while the case is going on. Even if the wolves are de-listed; the federal government will watch each state for 5 years and see how their management of the wolves goes. That is how part of the ESA works. After those five years; a state can decide to do whatever they want. A state can even decide to wipe out all the wolves; if they choose. There is no law preventing this from happening. The only problem is public’s opinion, animal rights groups, and the possibility of the federal government taking control back. It is however possible, that wolves could be wiped out all together. Not that it will ever happen or if that is even the ethical thing to do.
I have read that ranchers in eastern Oregon want to amend the Oregon wolf management plan to allow them to shoot or hunt down wolves that have killed their livestock. This may be a bad idea, since it will give groups fuel in cases to put the wolves back on the ESA list. It may show that the states are not capable of managing the wolves for recovery and that the federal government should keep the control under the ESA.
We need to do everything we can to work with the states and even the federal government to help keep the wolves de-listed. Everything that we say and do will only fuel the fire in the courts and show that the states and people are not ready to manage the wolves. We should ask ourselves if we really want the wolves de-listed. It is very easy to get the wolf issue tied up in court for years and very hard to keep them de-listed and start a hunting season. ID, WY, MT may have to deal with some major problems because of court cases through the future. I hope Oregon and Washington can learn from this and get through all the court cases before our wolf population gets out of hand. We don’t have many wolves right now and should be thankful. We may see the Oregon wolf management plan increase in the number of wolf packs go up in the future. Don’t blame this on Oregon or the ODFW. The ESA is what keep Oregon from having a say if the wolves should be allowed or not in this state. The federal government and the ESA always have a say over the states, such as Oregon. Organizations are using the wording in the ESA; to keep this issue wrapped up in the courts. I’m sure they will find the 88-100 wolves that Oregon will allow in this state not enough and want the management plan to change and allow more. Oregon may see the plan go from 100 wolves in the state go up to 1,000 wolves. Time will only tell. I’m not sure on what we can do, but will try to get more information.
I have read that ranchers in eastern Oregon want to amend the Oregon wolf management plan to allow them to shoot or hunt down wolves that have killed their livestock. This may be a bad idea, since it will give groups fuel in cases to put the wolves back on the ESA list. It may show that the states are not capable of managing the wolves for recovery and that the federal government should keep the control under the ESA.
We need to do everything we can to work with the states and even the federal government to help keep the wolves de-listed. Everything that we say and do will only fuel the fire in the courts and show that the states and people are not ready to manage the wolves. We should ask ourselves if we really want the wolves de-listed. It is very easy to get the wolf issue tied up in court for years and very hard to keep them de-listed and start a hunting season. ID, WY, MT may have to deal with some major problems because of court cases through the future. I hope Oregon and Washington can learn from this and get through all the court cases before our wolf population gets out of hand. We don’t have many wolves right now and should be thankful. We may see the Oregon wolf management plan increase in the number of wolf packs go up in the future. Don’t blame this on Oregon or the ODFW. The ESA is what keep Oregon from having a say if the wolves should be allowed or not in this state. The federal government and the ESA always have a say over the states, such as Oregon. Organizations are using the wording in the ESA; to keep this issue wrapped up in the courts. I’m sure they will find the 88-100 wolves that Oregon will allow in this state not enough and want the management plan to change and allow more. Oregon may see the plan go from 100 wolves in the state go up to 1,000 wolves. Time will only tell. I’m not sure on what we can do, but will try to get more information.
04-21-2009, 06:05 AM
#2
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Idaho,Stationed in Ludington,Mi
Posts: 1,324
RE: Wolf Update
You sure do have a way of putting me in a bad mood. Once again, thanks for the information. Maybe some of the hunters here will realize the wolf epidemic is raping the western states.
04-21-2009, 06:17 PM
#5
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Kuna Idaho
Posts: 115
RE: Wolf Update
I am from Idaho and I will say that WY will not have a management plan after their shoot on site deal, the wolves here are way out of control, they need to be managed not exterminated. They are taking a huge toll on our elk populations. I do not want to hunt one myself but I have had to stand one down before as it was in our camp and did not show any fear until it heard my shot gun hammer click back...
04-22-2009, 04:33 AM
#6
Banned
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,701
RE: Wolf Update
ADV. Hunter it can be argued that YOU are the problem by not taking control of the situation yourself. you say they're out of control, they're taking huge tolls on the game animals but you're not willing to do anything about it huh ?
I don't advocate doing illegal things often - this is an exception though.
I don't advocate doing illegal things often - this is an exception though.
04-23-2009, 02:42 PM
#7
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Idaho
Posts: 2,072
RE: Wolf Update
The situation goes way deeper than that. People like ADV. are not the problem.
Being a radical can do more damage than help. Whether we like it or not the wolves are here to stay. Extermination is not a possibility and any coversation in or around extermination orillegal killingis quoted directly in the courts and is used to further the pro wolf cause. Believe me, it happens. I have seen it first hand. There are links on the pro wolf websites that lead to threads such as this, be careful in what you say.
A far as the states game management plans and fighting the wolf movement, I too wondered what was being done. By attending public hearings and meetings, my eyes were opened to what the departments are up against and what they are willing to do. I am also aware of the impacts and have watched outfitters plea with fish and game commisioners to cut tags and even close seasons at their expense to save what is left of the elk in both the Lolo and Sawtooth zones in Idaho. It pained me to watch the tears in the eyes of people who have devoted their lives to the outdoors.
There is an opening in the ESA called the 10j ruling for those who are not familiar with that. It allows the agencies to eliminate those wolves in problematic areas. This is indeed being exercised as I type this. There have been many wolves that have been taken out of areas where they were becoming a huge impact on ungulate mortality.
If all goes well in the courts, and we show that the genetic crossover studies that occured several years ago are not correct, maybe we can help in the management process by partaking in the seasons that have been set and are ready for this fall.
Until all hunters show that we can be civil and make the correct decisions regarding management of an animal on the ESA, we will find ourselves battling this issue from here til the end of time. Please make responsible choices.
Its never a good idea to mix feelings with ESA politics.
To whomever has a vested interest in what is facing hunters now and in the future, attend any meeting or hearing that you can instead of becoming an armchair commando in cyberspace! You may be surprised as to what is going on around you.
Being a radical can do more damage than help. Whether we like it or not the wolves are here to stay. Extermination is not a possibility and any coversation in or around extermination orillegal killingis quoted directly in the courts and is used to further the pro wolf cause. Believe me, it happens. I have seen it first hand. There are links on the pro wolf websites that lead to threads such as this, be careful in what you say.
A far as the states game management plans and fighting the wolf movement, I too wondered what was being done. By attending public hearings and meetings, my eyes were opened to what the departments are up against and what they are willing to do. I am also aware of the impacts and have watched outfitters plea with fish and game commisioners to cut tags and even close seasons at their expense to save what is left of the elk in both the Lolo and Sawtooth zones in Idaho. It pained me to watch the tears in the eyes of people who have devoted their lives to the outdoors.
There is an opening in the ESA called the 10j ruling for those who are not familiar with that. It allows the agencies to eliminate those wolves in problematic areas. This is indeed being exercised as I type this. There have been many wolves that have been taken out of areas where they were becoming a huge impact on ungulate mortality.
If all goes well in the courts, and we show that the genetic crossover studies that occured several years ago are not correct, maybe we can help in the management process by partaking in the seasons that have been set and are ready for this fall.
Until all hunters show that we can be civil and make the correct decisions regarding management of an animal on the ESA, we will find ourselves battling this issue from here til the end of time. Please make responsible choices.
Its never a good idea to mix feelings with ESA politics.
To whomever has a vested interest in what is facing hunters now and in the future, attend any meeting or hearing that you can instead of becoming an armchair commando in cyberspace! You may be surprised as to what is going on around you.
04-23-2009, 03:12 PM
#8
Fork Horn
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 349
RE: Wolf Update
ORIGINAL: Elkcrazy8
The situation goes way deeper than that. People like ADV. are not the problem.
Being a radical can do more damage than help. Whether we like it or not the wolves are here to stay. Extermination is not a possibility and any coversation in or around extermination orillegal killingis quoted directly in the courts and is used to further the pro wolf cause. Believe me, it happens. I have seen it first hand. There are links on the pro wolf websites that lead to threads such as this, be careful in what you say.
A far as the states game management plans and fighting the wolf movement, I too wondered what was being done. By attending public hearings and meetings, my eyes were opened to what the departments are up against and what they are willing to do. I am also aware of the impacts and have watched outfitters plea with fish and game commisioners to cut tags and even close seasons at their expense to save what is left of the elk in both the Lolo and Sawtooth zones in Idaho. It pained me to watch the tears in the eyes of people who have devoted their lives to the outdoors.
There is an opening in the ESA called the 10j ruling for those who are not familiar with that. It allows the agencies to eliminate those wolves in problematic areas. This is indeed being exercised as I type this. There have been many wolves that have been taken out of areas where they were becoming a huge impact on ungulate mortality.
If all goes well in the courts, and we show that the genetic crossover studies that occured several years ago are not correct, maybe we can help in the management process by partaking in the seasons that have been set and are ready for this fall.
Until all hunters show that we can be civil and make the correct decisions regarding management of an animal on the ESA, we will find ourselves battling this issue from here til the end of time. Please make responsible choices.
Its never a good idea to mix feelings with ESA politics.
To whomever has a vested interest in what is facing hunters now and in the future, attend any meeting or hearing that you can instead of becoming an armchair commando in cyberspace! You may be surprised as to what is going on around you.
The situation goes way deeper than that. People like ADV. are not the problem.
Being a radical can do more damage than help. Whether we like it or not the wolves are here to stay. Extermination is not a possibility and any coversation in or around extermination orillegal killingis quoted directly in the courts and is used to further the pro wolf cause. Believe me, it happens. I have seen it first hand. There are links on the pro wolf websites that lead to threads such as this, be careful in what you say.
A far as the states game management plans and fighting the wolf movement, I too wondered what was being done. By attending public hearings and meetings, my eyes were opened to what the departments are up against and what they are willing to do. I am also aware of the impacts and have watched outfitters plea with fish and game commisioners to cut tags and even close seasons at their expense to save what is left of the elk in both the Lolo and Sawtooth zones in Idaho. It pained me to watch the tears in the eyes of people who have devoted their lives to the outdoors.
There is an opening in the ESA called the 10j ruling for those who are not familiar with that. It allows the agencies to eliminate those wolves in problematic areas. This is indeed being exercised as I type this. There have been many wolves that have been taken out of areas where they were becoming a huge impact on ungulate mortality.
If all goes well in the courts, and we show that the genetic crossover studies that occured several years ago are not correct, maybe we can help in the management process by partaking in the seasons that have been set and are ready for this fall.
Until all hunters show that we can be civil and make the correct decisions regarding management of an animal on the ESA, we will find ourselves battling this issue from here til the end of time. Please make responsible choices.
Its never a good idea to mix feelings with ESA politics.
To whomever has a vested interest in what is facing hunters now and in the future, attend any meeting or hearing that you can instead of becoming an armchair commando in cyberspace! You may be surprised as to what is going on around you.
I have learned something new today from a guy that has worked his whole life in Fish and Wildlife law and policies. He has worked 4 years for the Department of the Interior and several years in the Senate.
The Bush and Obama administration are the only administrations to let certain states de-list a species off the ESA, while keeping a species still listed in another state. An example is the wolves being de-listed in ID and MT, while still being listed in WY. As I said in my first post; a species has to go through the exact same process (mirror image) getting listed and also de-listed. The Bush and Obama administrations have interpreted the ESA as they like. There is no law that states if a species can be listed and de-listed one state at a time or if a species across the country has to be listed and de-listed all at once. The problem is that the wolves were listed under the ESA across the country as a whole. Now they are being de-listed one state at a time. This is what an organization is going to use in court about the wolves. Not only have the wolves been listed and de-listed in two different ways (from a legal stand point).
There could be good and bad from listing and de-listing by small individual regions. The good is what we have seen with the wolves. The bad can be endless. Here are some quick examples: 1. There could be no limit to boundaries. We could see species listed in single states, counties, mountains, single ridge, or even a 1 acre field. 2. If a small region in a state had poor calve elk or fawn deer recruitment; we may see them get listed under the ESA! 3. Predators impacting game herds too much? We may see game herds affected by predators get listed under the ESA!
Everyone that knows me can understand my passion for hunting and wildlife. I do kind of understand why the wolf issue should be back in the courts. Not necessarily because of the wolves themselves, but because of the way the administration wants to de-list the wolves and the possible negative outcome it could have on everyone including hunters in the future. If WY would get their act together with their wolf management plan; then all the states with wolves could have gotten de-listed at the same time. That would have kept this mess of the wolves being back in the courts here in the near future from even happening. The Bush and Obama administration is also to blame. They may however have the power to keep their own interpretation of the ESA. Time will tell. We may have to fear that if this interpretation stays; we may see unit by unit with poor game herd counts be put on the ESA. That could spell the end of hunting as we know it! Does anyone out there think we as hunters need to make a stand and push for the Obama administration to go back to the old way of listing and de-listing species? This may be exactly what the animal rights groups are looking for. I’m kind of at the middle here and would like to hear everyone’s thoughts. Please keep this thread clean and open. It could decide the future of hunting as we know it.
04-23-2009, 04:05 PM
#9
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Idaho
Posts: 2,072
RE: Wolf Update
Thanks blacktail for your efforts to educate people, ( my post was not aimed at you)
I have watched this issue closely. One of the biggest arguments, and the one that listed the wolves again was the issue of genetic isolation.
Mrs Stone from the Defenders of Wildlifehas been quoting the studies that were done several years ago. I watched the open dialog on Idaho Public Television recently and the discussion was very interesting to say the least. The Idaho Outfitters and Guides Assosiation , Idaho Fish and Game , Mrs. Stone , Ralph Maughn , and I belive that it was the Idaho Sheep Growers Association were present for the meeting. All factions involved were sitting at the same table to discuss the issue of wolves.The Defenders of Wildlife had pledged to continue the court battles until a science based management plan was presented. It was clear that she too did not know the recent specifics. I do have to hand it to her though as she conducted herself in a professional manner, unlike the pro wolf radical Ralph Maughn whom I have had dealings with myself in the past. he wasn't happy with me at the time as I was somewhat involved with a news story that put his cargo in a negative light. But thats another story.
I met with some of the above at a public hearing and was very impressed with our wildlife agencies. They have a tough job and have been working harder than most can imagine. I also found that they are very open to public comment.
Hunters will need to show that wolves can be managed to the point where genetic crossover can occur. By wiping any of the regions clean of wolves, it just shows that genetic crossover will have a hard time of occuring.
I myself belive that a single state on its own can indeed manage and allow for proper genetic crossover while waiting for other states management plans to catch up. Idaho has set its population at 5 times the recovery level goals and has a great management plan in place. Its time to put it into action!
I have watched this issue closely. One of the biggest arguments, and the one that listed the wolves again was the issue of genetic isolation.
Mrs Stone from the Defenders of Wildlifehas been quoting the studies that were done several years ago. I watched the open dialog on Idaho Public Television recently and the discussion was very interesting to say the least. The Idaho Outfitters and Guides Assosiation , Idaho Fish and Game , Mrs. Stone , Ralph Maughn , and I belive that it was the Idaho Sheep Growers Association were present for the meeting. All factions involved were sitting at the same table to discuss the issue of wolves.The Defenders of Wildlife had pledged to continue the court battles until a science based management plan was presented. It was clear that she too did not know the recent specifics. I do have to hand it to her though as she conducted herself in a professional manner, unlike the pro wolf radical Ralph Maughn whom I have had dealings with myself in the past. he wasn't happy with me at the time as I was somewhat involved with a news story that put his cargo in a negative light. But thats another story.
I met with some of the above at a public hearing and was very impressed with our wildlife agencies. They have a tough job and have been working harder than most can imagine. I also found that they are very open to public comment.
Hunters will need to show that wolves can be managed to the point where genetic crossover can occur. By wiping any of the regions clean of wolves, it just shows that genetic crossover will have a hard time of occuring.
I myself belive that a single state on its own can indeed manage and allow for proper genetic crossover while waiting for other states management plans to catch up. Idaho has set its population at 5 times the recovery level goals and has a great management plan in place. Its time to put it into action!
04-23-2009, 04:17 PM
#10
Fork Horn
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 349
RE: Wolf Update
Elkcrazy8,
Thanks for all the information you have. I worked last summer here in Oregon helping ODFW do wolf surveys and had the chance to meet and work with
Carter Niemeyer also known as “The Wolf Man”. Carter has been all around the U.S. involved with anything that had to do about wolves. He is a great guy with lots of information about wolves. That whole genetic issue was a complete joke. I think there is enough science and research together from both the state and federal agencies that we should hopefully see management by the states with hunting seasons to come. The only thing that I worry about is how the wolves were de-listed off the ESA. It is guaranteed going back to court, but it is up to the courts to decide if they will allow the wolves to stay de-listed during what may be a case that will last years in the courts. Let’s pray for the best.
Thanks for all the information you have. I worked last summer here in Oregon helping ODFW do wolf surveys and had the chance to meet and work with
Carter Niemeyer also known as “The Wolf Man”. Carter has been all around the U.S. involved with anything that had to do about wolves. He is a great guy with lots of information about wolves. That whole genetic issue was a complete joke. I think there is enough science and research together from both the state and federal agencies that we should hopefully see management by the states with hunting seasons to come. The only thing that I worry about is how the wolves were de-listed off the ESA. It is guaranteed going back to court, but it is up to the courts to decide if they will allow the wolves to stay de-listed during what may be a case that will last years in the courts. Let’s pray for the best.