Is it really that much better??
12-05-2008, 07:46 AM
#171
Typical Buck
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Becker County, MN
Posts: 550
RE: Is it really that much better??
Numbers don't lie and cannot be argued against...these are a little outdated however. I know my state, MN, has trended downward on this list in recent years
Listed below are states with their respective ratio’s (odds) of taking a Pope & Young buck. These statistics were calculated from the 23rd recording statistical period summary book published by the Pope & Young club.
Pope & Young Bucks entered to Bowhunting Licenses Sold ratio (2001)
State
Bowhunting Licenses Sold 2001
Pope &Young bucks entered 2001
Ratio
1. Iowa
40,072
170
1 - 235
2. Kansas
19,913
78
1 - 255
3. Nebraska
15,105
37
1 - 408
4. Illinois
110,000
263
1 - 418
5. South Dakota
13,740
32
1 - 429
6. Wisconsin
257,571
358
1 - 719
7. North Dakota
13,228
14
1 - 944
8. Minnesota
72,000
64
1 - 1,125
9. Oklahoma
23,000
19
1 - 1,210
10. Indiana
110,000
87
1 - 1,264
11. Maryland
37,000
24
1 - 1,540
12. Ohio
160,000
97
1 - 1,649
13. Texas
75,000
44
1 - 1,704
14. Massachusetts
23,000
13
1 - 1,769
15. Montana
25,000
14
1 - 1,785
16. Missouri
97,883
53
1 - 1,846
17. Connecticut
13,715
6
1 - 2,285
18. Arkansas
30,000
12
1 - 2,500
19. New York
177,900
60
1 - 2,965
20. Delaware
7,000
2
1 - 3,500
21. Virginia
59,720
16
1 - 3,732
22. New Jersey
40,719
10
1 - 4,071
23. North Carolina
55,000
13
1 - 4,230
24. Rhode Island
4,371
1
1 - 4,371
25. Georgia
96,721
21
1 - 4,605
26. Pennsylvania
270,529
58
1 - 4,664
27. West Virginia
140,000
30
1 - 4,666
28. Kentucky
184,214
39
1 - 4,723
29. Wyoming
11,339
2
1 - 5,669
30. Mississippi
64,500
11
1 - 5,863
31. Louisiana
32,000
4
1 - 8,000
32. Michigan
306,266
36
1 - 8,507
Listed below are states with their respective ratio’s (odds) of taking a Pope & Young buck. These statistics were calculated from the 23rd recording statistical period summary book published by the Pope & Young club.
Pope & Young Bucks entered to Bowhunting Licenses Sold ratio (2001)
State
Bowhunting Licenses Sold 2001
Pope &Young bucks entered 2001
Ratio
1. Iowa
40,072
170
1 - 235
2. Kansas
19,913
78
1 - 255
3. Nebraska
15,105
37
1 - 408
4. Illinois
110,000
263
1 - 418
5. South Dakota
13,740
32
1 - 429
6. Wisconsin
257,571
358
1 - 719
7. North Dakota
13,228
14
1 - 944
8. Minnesota
72,000
64
1 - 1,125
9. Oklahoma
23,000
19
1 - 1,210
10. Indiana
110,000
87
1 - 1,264
11. Maryland
37,000
24
1 - 1,540
12. Ohio
160,000
97
1 - 1,649
13. Texas
75,000
44
1 - 1,704
14. Massachusetts
23,000
13
1 - 1,769
15. Montana
25,000
14
1 - 1,785
16. Missouri
97,883
53
1 - 1,846
17. Connecticut
13,715
6
1 - 2,285
18. Arkansas
30,000
12
1 - 2,500
19. New York
177,900
60
1 - 2,965
20. Delaware
7,000
2
1 - 3,500
21. Virginia
59,720
16
1 - 3,732
22. New Jersey
40,719
10
1 - 4,071
23. North Carolina
55,000
13
1 - 4,230
24. Rhode Island
4,371
1
1 - 4,371
25. Georgia
96,721
21
1 - 4,605
26. Pennsylvania
270,529
58
1 - 4,664
27. West Virginia
140,000
30
1 - 4,666
28. Kentucky
184,214
39
1 - 4,723
29. Wyoming
11,339
2
1 - 5,669
30. Mississippi
64,500
11
1 - 5,863
31. Louisiana
32,000
4
1 - 8,000
32. Michigan
306,266
36
1 - 8,507
12-05-2008, 07:58 AM
#173
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Memphis TN USA
Posts: 3,445
RE: Is it really that much better??
Yes it is that much better.
I have all over the southeast and I have been fortunate enough to take some pretty good deer. I was also forunate enough when I was younger to have friends with money that allowed me to hunt some of the best properties in the midsouth. I am talking HIGH dollars clubs that had excellent management programs and $2500 fines for killing bucks under 125etc. and I can unequivocally that on every trip I have taken to the midwest that I have seen more deer, more bucks, and more big bucks in one week that I ever have in any season at home. The hunts I did were week leases for $850 (3 of them) all the property owner did was say "here are the property lines" and the other one was just a hunt with some buddies that have permission (along with several other guys). Now you guys know how much ground leases for and hunts go for in Illinois so does is sound like to you I was hunting golden whitetail paradise or does it sound like I was hunting ground none of the big outfitters felt like it was worth their time or money to lease? Not a buck behind every tree by any means and several of the guys that hunted with me over the years have come home empty handed. Who knows maybe I'm just real lucky and deer flock to me when I go there. But I have cetainly been successful and I have never gone on a guided or outfitted hunt.
A guy will hunt a state such as PA, NC, AL, FL, TN, KY,___(fill in the blank) and they get frustrated. They are hunting average hunting grounds like everyone else. Then said person will take a trip out of state, but here is the kicker...when they come to the promised lands to hunt, they don't hunt normal hunting grounds like the majority of hunters living there do....they go with a big wig outfitter who has access to 30,000 acres in the Golden Triangle of prime time land managed for huge bucks...and huge bucks they see. They go from hunting standard lands to hunting the mother load of all managed farms to hunt, and attribute the difference to state lines. They return to home state, and tell everyone how much people in IL, KS, IA, __, etc have it made, huge bucks behind every tree.
I have all over the southeast and I have been fortunate enough to take some pretty good deer. I was also forunate enough when I was younger to have friends with money that allowed me to hunt some of the best properties in the midsouth. I am talking HIGH dollars clubs that had excellent management programs and $2500 fines for killing bucks under 125etc. and I can unequivocally that on every trip I have taken to the midwest that I have seen more deer, more bucks, and more big bucks in one week that I ever have in any season at home. The hunts I did were week leases for $850 (3 of them) all the property owner did was say "here are the property lines" and the other one was just a hunt with some buddies that have permission (along with several other guys). Now you guys know how much ground leases for and hunts go for in Illinois so does is sound like to you I was hunting golden whitetail paradise or does it sound like I was hunting ground none of the big outfitters felt like it was worth their time or money to lease? Not a buck behind every tree by any means and several of the guys that hunted with me over the years have come home empty handed. Who knows maybe I'm just real lucky and deer flock to me when I go there. But I have cetainly been successful and I have never gone on a guided or outfitted hunt.
12-05-2008, 08:06 AM
#174
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Almost Heaven. Boone Co. WV
Posts: 1,003
RE: Is it really that much better??
I think one think that's being missed in this argument is terrain.
In the midwest you have a predominant wind that varries very little combined with a mostly flat landscape broken by fields and woodlots. You hope to find the bedding area and the feeding area and a well used travel corridor between the two and go from there. Ill, OH, KS, Iowa, and many othe midwest states off this type of terrain.
VA, MD, WV, PA ad many more eastern states offer greater challenges with the landscape before you even consider the food, pressure, state laws, bag limits ect.
Hell insouthern WV there are 4-5 countines that have absolute monsters. There has not been a gun season in 4 of themfor over 40 years....maybe 50? People do not flock to this area to hunt because even though there are a lot of Big Bucks, they are hard to hunt in the big steep hills. Bedding areas ar not as defined, and finding a fresh food source that the deer are currently using is a tall task. It is totally different there. You might hunt for a week and not even see a Deer............don't mean they are not there.........The could have been less than 50 yards away and you would never see them...[&:].
Yeah, big bucks are in every state andyes some states have more than others. Some states are easier to kill them in too.... that's the reason most take trips to the midwest when looking for a slammer.
In the midwest you have a predominant wind that varries very little combined with a mostly flat landscape broken by fields and woodlots. You hope to find the bedding area and the feeding area and a well used travel corridor between the two and go from there. Ill, OH, KS, Iowa, and many othe midwest states off this type of terrain.
VA, MD, WV, PA ad many more eastern states offer greater challenges with the landscape before you even consider the food, pressure, state laws, bag limits ect.
Hell insouthern WV there are 4-5 countines that have absolute monsters. There has not been a gun season in 4 of themfor over 40 years....maybe 50? People do not flock to this area to hunt because even though there are a lot of Big Bucks, they are hard to hunt in the big steep hills. Bedding areas ar not as defined, and finding a fresh food source that the deer are currently using is a tall task. It is totally different there. You might hunt for a week and not even see a Deer............don't mean they are not there.........The could have been less than 50 yards away and you would never see them...[&:].
Yeah, big bucks are in every state andyes some states have more than others. Some states are easier to kill them in too.... that's the reason most take trips to the midwest when looking for a slammer.
12-05-2008, 08:45 AM
#176
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Almost Heaven. Boone Co. WV
Posts: 1,003
RE: Is it really that much better??
ORIGINAL: JoeRE
So what would happen if you took every hunter on the east coast, and every hunter on the west coast, and had them all switch places? [:-]
So what would happen if you took every hunter on the east coast, and every hunter on the west coast, and had them all switch places? [:-]
12-05-2008, 09:34 AM
#177
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location:
Posts: 1,927
RE: Is it really that much better??
Landon,
Not even inside VA are things all the same. I've hunted from one end of the state to the other and if you've ever hunted in Isle of Wight County or Southhampton County you will see tons of deer. I hunted a place for years in IoW Co. and I've seen over a hundred deer in one day!! Mostly does and young bucks but I've seen some bucks walking with rocking chairs on their heads. During summer and early bowseason we saw lots of movement during early evenings and mid-mornings (filming in summer). I don't hunt dogs but I will say that the surrounding farms were hunted hard with dogs and it made deer move all day long, even if the dogs weren't on them. The dog hunters were "brown down" types but the swamps and pine thickets made it possible for the bucks to circle endlessly and never be seen by the road hunting dog types so there were some bucks with age on them. When hunting there I'd have my weapon in one hand and a sandwich in the other during lunch because you just never knew. Now it's not like that everywhere but there are some sweet spots in VA. I live in the mountains now and I see deer movement often, usually several does. So it could be just the area you're hunting. But I do understand your question and think it does have to do with expectations causing a lot of guys in the midwest to pass on younger bucks, thus creating a older age structure of deer. If we passed on bucks, as a whole, in VA like they do out west we'd have more 125" bucks running around that we'd be willing to pass on. The key is age and keeping doe:buck ratio down so the does don't over browse the area and put stress on population.
Not even inside VA are things all the same. I've hunted from one end of the state to the other and if you've ever hunted in Isle of Wight County or Southhampton County you will see tons of deer. I hunted a place for years in IoW Co. and I've seen over a hundred deer in one day!! Mostly does and young bucks but I've seen some bucks walking with rocking chairs on their heads. During summer and early bowseason we saw lots of movement during early evenings and mid-mornings (filming in summer). I don't hunt dogs but I will say that the surrounding farms were hunted hard with dogs and it made deer move all day long, even if the dogs weren't on them. The dog hunters were "brown down" types but the swamps and pine thickets made it possible for the bucks to circle endlessly and never be seen by the road hunting dog types so there were some bucks with age on them. When hunting there I'd have my weapon in one hand and a sandwich in the other during lunch because you just never knew. Now it's not like that everywhere but there are some sweet spots in VA. I live in the mountains now and I see deer movement often, usually several does. So it could be just the area you're hunting. But I do understand your question and think it does have to do with expectations causing a lot of guys in the midwest to pass on younger bucks, thus creating a older age structure of deer. If we passed on bucks, as a whole, in VA like they do out west we'd have more 125" bucks running around that we'd be willing to pass on. The key is age and keeping doe:buck ratio down so the does don't over browse the area and put stress on population.
12-05-2008, 11:28 AM
#178
Fork Horn
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Kalamazoo, Michigan
Posts: 358
RE: Is it really that much better??
I and three others are going to Hampton Kentucky for a week of bowhunting with a smaller outfitter that doesn't charge as much. But were going to hunt land that will bejust as good as the golden triangle in my opinion, or good enough for me. From what i hear and readKentucky is a sleeper state for good bucks that is why i'm going.
My John Deere store is doing a Big Buck Pole Contest in relation to Q-1 Video Network, www.q1video.com . I can tell you that there are some big bucks that are being harvested this year. I'm impressed with the ones that i'm scoring for the contest (check the website out)
Anyways my point is that even michigan is putting out some good deer. We have all the right ingrediants like Illinois. Southern Michigan has ALOT of deer, no problem there, but not enough people letting the potential ones live anothe year or two. I believe the bowhunters in majority are practicing Deer management, there are too hunters still shooting the first brown thing that comes into range.
My John Deere store is doing a Big Buck Pole Contest in relation to Q-1 Video Network, www.q1video.com . I can tell you that there are some big bucks that are being harvested this year. I'm impressed with the ones that i'm scoring for the contest (check the website out)
Anyways my point is that even michigan is putting out some good deer. We have all the right ingrediants like Illinois. Southern Michigan has ALOT of deer, no problem there, but not enough people letting the potential ones live anothe year or two. I believe the bowhunters in majority are practicing Deer management, there are too hunters still shooting the first brown thing that comes into range.
12-05-2008, 11:54 AM
#179
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Southern Illinois
Posts: 1,559
RE: Is it really that much better??
ORIGINAL: TEmbry
Points all valid and taken. I think that ties back into hunter's attitudes more than anything (what I struggle with here locally). Is IL managed THAT much better with that much more potential, or is it the attitude of hunters?
If PA hunters had the mindset of IL hunters...would the hunting be similar after 3-4 years?
Like I said, Antler wise? No doubt they can grow bigger where there are unlimited food resources, good cover, and good genetics....but the number of mature bucks has nothing to do with that, it's all in the hunting season's structure, and the overall attitude of hunting.
The more I think about it, the more Im starting to believe the attitude of the hunting masses is the number one factor into how good the deer hunting is, big bucks speaking...Big picture here, not a single farm, a state or at the very least a county's area.
ORIGINAL: Matt / PA
Ive hunted Illinois for a total of 6 weeks spread over 4 seasons........I've taken ZERO "mature" bucks. LOL but I've also SEEN literally dozens with no good shot opportunities. Hell I saw a 150-160" 10 pt the first AM of the first day I ever hunted in Illinois on a DIY hunt. LOL To that point in PA I had never seen even one in 20 full seasons. 
Ok so I killed my biggest buck in PA, the ONLY P&Y deer I have ever seen on the hoof in PA in my life and I killed him........statictical anomoly that was in the wrong place at the wrong time. [8D]
What you also have to realize is that for 4 seasons in IL plus Nebraska I have passed up handfuls of deer that would have been my best to date by far hoping for a gagger........deer I would have emptied my quiver at and lept from my stand to kill with my bare hands in PA if need be.
The odds tell me I need to be hunting out there.
I honestly feel like I should/would be putting down a solid P&Y buck where we hunt in Illinois probably every other or every 3rd year.........in PA I have only SEEN the one I killed last year.
We have roughly 1,000,000 licensed hunters here, probably 3/4 of them still have a "buck" tag come rifle season which is a 2 week 3pts to a side, plus we're gonna kill every button buck that walks by, free-for-all.......vs 2 short shotgun seasons in a state where you'll get made fun of for shooting a 1.5yr old?
There's no comparison that can be made between PA and a state like Illinois or Iowa beyond we both have whitetail deer.
But look at it this way Matt...how many years have you hunted IL? How many mature bucks have you taken? Which state was your biggest buck from? (I don't know these answers, not loaded questions)
Ok so I killed my biggest buck in PA, the ONLY P&Y deer I have ever seen on the hoof in PA in my life and I killed him........statictical anomoly that was in the wrong place at the wrong time. [8D]
What you also have to realize is that for 4 seasons in IL plus Nebraska I have passed up handfuls of deer that would have been my best to date by far hoping for a gagger........deer I would have emptied my quiver at and lept from my stand to kill with my bare hands in PA if need be.
The odds tell me I need to be hunting out there.
I honestly feel like I should/would be putting down a solid P&Y buck where we hunt in Illinois probably every other or every 3rd year.........in PA I have only SEEN the one I killed last year.
We have roughly 1,000,000 licensed hunters here, probably 3/4 of them still have a "buck" tag come rifle season which is a 2 week 3pts to a side, plus we're gonna kill every button buck that walks by, free-for-all.......vs 2 short shotgun seasons in a state where you'll get made fun of for shooting a 1.5yr old?
There's no comparison that can be made between PA and a state like Illinois or Iowa beyond we both have whitetail deer.
If PA hunters had the mindset of IL hunters...would the hunting be similar after 3-4 years?
Like I said, Antler wise? No doubt they can grow bigger where there are unlimited food resources, good cover, and good genetics....but the number of mature bucks has nothing to do with that, it's all in the hunting season's structure, and the overall attitude of hunting.
The more I think about it, the more Im starting to believe the attitude of the hunting masses is the number one factor into how good the deer hunting is, big bucks speaking...Big picture here, not a single farm, a state or at the very least a county's area.
12-05-2008, 01:20 PM
#180
Super Moderator
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Southeast Central Illinois USA
Posts: 6,969
RE: Is it really that much better??
In the midwest you have a predominant wind that varries very little combined with a mostly flat landscape broken by fields and woodlots.
.