Aging deer (Jaw bone pics)
 

Guys,
I took the jaw bone from the deer I shot this year to a good friend of mine to see what he thought it's age was. This guy is more experienced than I am when it comes to old deer. He has hunted the same area that I am since the seventies. He has also taken a lot of P&Y bucks and a couple of B&C non-typicals. In short, I believe that he knows what he's talking about.

Based on him seeing the deer and the jaw bone, he came up with 8 1/2 like I did. When we age a deer, we look at many different things. Antler mass, shape and size along with body size andshape, foot wear. One more thing we've been looking at is the thickness of the skull plates. The thinking is that as the buck gets older, his skull plate thickens. This one is over 3/8" thick. Any thoughts on this? This does not imply that we are 100% accurate, but I think we are in the ball park. Another thing to take into consideration is the location and available food sources for the deer. Where this buck lived the soil and food are not as harsh on the teeth as a sandy soiled or total browse location.

The pics are not as good as I thought. They leave out a lot of 3-d detail. Maybe I'll try again.

First a 6 1/2 year old



His jaw bone



Another




8 1/2 year old



Jaw bone



Another



Can you see the difference?

Here's a pic of the front teeth. These really start to wear down as the deer ages. Older one is on the right, the teeth are a lot smaller.



Here's a pic of where the jaw was broken.




While these are my best guesstimates, I'm going to look into sending in the teeth for a X-section analysis.

What do you guys think?

RE: Aging deer (Jaw bone pics)
 

Yeah send them off, most state biologist will do them.

I have a had a few jawbones that i thought were younger/older that came back different. Alot comes down to diet, Mtn deer eating nuts might have more wear then swamp deer eating green vegatation.

RE: Aging deer (Jaw bone pics)
 

I have very little experience in this arena. What I see, are two deer that needed better dental coverage. The plaque is out of control, obviously no flossing.

Other than that...they are definitely bucks, judging by the racks, probably not 1.5, although some people lately may disagree.

RE: Aging deer (Jaw bone pics)
 

Greg:

I just sent an email to my buddy Dan (Jawshooter) to look at this thread. He went to school for this stuff and worked for NY State for quite a while aging deer. He also has experience aging older deer. It would be interesting to compare his thoughts with yours and your buddies.

RE: Aging deer (Jaw bone pics)
 

Greg, those are some incredible pics and comparisons, very informative. I wonder how long that bucks jaw had been broken. 8.5 years is the oldest buck anyone I know has ever shot. In MD the DNRused to collect teeth and do an age guestimate when checking deer in, but we dont have mandatory checking stations anymore, all done online or via a phone call. This is a big mistake IMO. Thanks Greg, awesome post and pics.

RE: Aging deer (Jaw bone pics)
 

RE: Aging deer (Jaw bone pics)
 

I notice the jaw bone of the younger deer shows a huge difference from one side to the other. This is one of the problems with trying to age deer from teeth alone. Each deer has different chewing style which can affect tooth wear. Some deer simply chew more than others. Obviously this is an extreme example of this deer preferring one side, but I think it’s interesting.

RE: Aging deer (Jaw bone pics)
 

Greg- From the limited knowledge I have on the subject I think you're a bit high in both cases. The first jaw I'd guess at 4.5-5.5. The second I guess at 5.5-6.5. Definately not enough tooth wear for 8.5.
Here's a couple links that may help. Keep in mind that soil types and food sources from different regions will affect tooth wear, but these are pretty accurate. I'd have your local wildlife biologist take a look.

http://www.tpwd.state.tx.us/publications/pwdpubs/media/pwd_bk_w7000_0755.pdf

http://www.npwrc.usgs.gov/resource/mammals/deerteth/ages.htm

http://www.whitetails.com/deer_info/age_determination.cfm

*edit- after looking a bit more carefully at your pics, I adjusted my guestimates

RE: Aging deer (Jaw bone pics)
 

I realize that the tooth wear doesn't look all that extreme in the pics, you have to see them in person. I have jaw bones from 2 1/2, 3 1/2, 4 1/2 and 5 1/2 year old deer that I used for comparrison also. As stated above, the area where these deer are from is not that hard on their teeth compared to other areas.

I saw both deer the year before I shot them, they were older than 4 1/2 and 5 1/2 when I saw them for the first time.

RE: Aging deer (Jaw bone pics)
 

As I said Greg, I'm definately no expert butdueto my profession in pathologyI have quite an interest in this subject. It is a well known that rack size, deer weight, coat color, and overall appearance can give a general 'young deer'or'mature age' classification, but nothing more.
While tooth wear aging isa much better indicator, there are geographic variations in this methodas well.The dentine thickness compared to the enamel thickness is the keycomponent of this techniquealong with how much the last cusp of the back molar slopes down. One thing is for certain, regardless of locationan 8.5 y/o deer has extreme wear to the point ofcupped dishes for mid molars, and yours doesn't look anything like that to me, but a wildlife biologist could tell you more. The front incisor analysis would certainly be the best way to go in the case of both jaws you pictured. Let me know if you get this done, or if you get a local biologist to examine yours as I'm very interested in what they'd conclude.

RE: Aging deer (Jaw bone pics)
 

I'm no expert either but due to my profession as an electrician and armchair biologist I have quite the interest in this subject myself. [8D]

However, other than color of coat, everything else listed above definitely gives more of a definition of age than just 'young deer' or 'mature deer'.

Rack size:

In the area where these deer are hunted the rack size can definitely get you in the ball park of age class.For the average......

1 1/2 - spike to about 80"

2 1/2 - 70" to about 115"

3 1/2 - 120" to about 140"

4 1/2 - 135" to about 150"

5 1/2+ - 145" to 170"+

The mass of the rack is also indicative, especially between 2 1/2 and 3 1/2. Stickers are another indicator of age (generally).

These are the average figures that can get you close. Now you throw in body shape and appearance(roman nose, pot belly, swagger etc), the size and shape and wear of the hooves, especially the fronts. Now you can start picking out age class. At least I can ,along with several other guys that I know. As I said before, it is a best guess based on our years of experience with the deer in this area. We feel that we are within a year of our guesstimates and definitely more accurate than... young..... mature.


Yes, this was addressed in my initial post.

I'm not certain about that. There are too many variables to say this is true for all locations. Who said it was for certain?

I addressed this in my initial post as well. I have to agree, it doesn't look like the ones in the pics from the web sites that you posted. To be fair, I don't think that their jaw bones are from the same location as mine. The one was from Texas.

I tried this once, I brought the rack, a pic and the jaw bone from a 20", 140 5/8" 8 pointer that field dressed at 193 pounds to my local whitetail biologist......... He told me it was a 1 1/2!!

I am interested in getting the teeth analyzed. If I do, I'll let you know.

RE: Aging deer (Jaw bone pics)
 

Cool enough. I'm definately not one to debate the subject as I'm just learning as I go, but I haven't seen a pic of an 8.5 y/o jawfrom any part ofNorth Americathat had any amount of teeth left close to yours.
Anyhow,since your local biologist is about as accurate as playing darts, you'd have to find another biolgist that has a clue or do the teeth analysis.
Just a heads-up if you do the teeth, soak the front portion of the jaw in warm water for an hour or so before you go to make your incisions. The tip of the root is what they need and the tooth won't come out intact after the surrounding soft tissue/gum has dried soaking it will soften it right up.

RE: Aging deer (Jaw bone pics)
 

Is the tooth that's needed for this (the incisor), one of the two middle ones, or will any of the front teeth do?

Thanks

RE: Aging deer (Jaw bone pics)
 

The very front two.

RE: Aging deer (Jaw bone pics)
 

greg do you think becuase of the broken jaw that is why he had those droptines?

RE: Aging deer (Jaw bone pics)
 

Hey Greg, Absolutely fascinating! Thanks for posting and sharing your thoughts. Keep us updated if you do get it aged.

RE: Aging deer (Jaw bone pics)
 

No, he had the drop tineslast year and the broken jaw was from this year.

RE: Aging deer (Jaw bone pics)
 

Greg:

Back when I said my taxi (who's nationally recognized/decorated) had aged my two bucks via this method.....you seemingly scoffed at the practice and questioned its accuracy.

Have you changed your mind? Why?

RE: Aging deer (Jaw bone pics)
 

Jeff ,OJ had experts that said he didn't do it also,real experts that said no way.[:-]

Why you embarrass your self like this amazes me, Greg is hunting a different class of deer ,get over it. The guy is good give it to him and try to learn some thing from him.
No one has ever taken any thing from your bucks ,be proud ,but don't even pretend that they are in this class.
Bestrepresentative specimen ? Go with that for a while.;)

RE: Aging deer (Jaw bone pics)
 

I have no idea what you're talking about, Jim. You sound like a drunk, though.

Your inferences are pretty pathetic, though. I asked a fair question.

Have another!:D

RE: Aging deer (Jaw bone pics)
 

Maybe your above post will bring light to your eyes. maybe not? :eek:

Back when I said my taxi (who's nationally recognized/decorated) had aged my two bucks via this method.....you seemingly scoffed at the practice and questioned its accuracy.

RE: Aging deer (Jaw bone pics)
 

What's not fair about the question. Less than a year ago...Greg thought the method was a "guess" at best. I wondered what's changed his mind.

How much fairer can that be? I'd like to know the answer.....or I wouldn't have asked the question.

I see you didn't miss a chance to belittle, though. Happens, interestingly enough, about every time I post.;)

RE: Aging deer (Jaw bone pics)
 

My god Jeff you have been aging deer by eye sight for your threeyear expert careerer.

The rest of us are just guessing.

RE: Aging deer (Jaw bone pics)
 

Does this sound like I changed my mind!!??

RE: Aging deer (Jaw bone pics)
 

Fair enough. But you do seem to be giving it a good amount of merit.....which I'm happy to see.

Thanks.

RE: Aging deer (Jaw bone pics)
 

I guess between You and Greg you have enough notes on big mature bucks racks and jaw bonesthat a weekendofcomparing noteswould help us novices out.:)

RE: Aging deer (Jaw bone pics)
 

Thanks for the informational first page...

Ifyou do get them aged by a biologist, I'd also like to know the outcome. I'm studying to be a biologist, I find this stuff pretty interesting.

I also hope Jawshooter replies to this thread, if it doesn't get locked, to share his insight.

RE: Aging deer (Jaw bone pics)
 

I was recently reading a test trial of the tooth wear method among like 5 or 6 nationally reputable deer biologist, they averaged only about 50% accuracy in guessing jaws of known-age deer that were submitted to them for aging. Granted they were mostly off by only a year one way or another, but considering an animal that rarely sees 5+ (I believe the stat is less than 2% of all free-ranging bucks live to 5 years old) plus or minus a year is a big deal to us hunters that want an accurate age of our harvests.

RE: Aging deer (Jaw bone pics)
 

Anything beyound 5 1/2 is a guess without X-section analysis......With that said, I would say your guesstimate is pretty close, IMO.

RE: Aging deer (Jaw bone pics)
 

I have a hard time believing anything I hear from biologist when it comes to aging animals. I know for a fact they can't age a bear to save there ass's! I've sent many teeth In to the University of Minnesota for the biologist to age and some of the results I get back are mind blowing and complete BS!! I think a biologist's biggest problem In aging anything Is not seeing the deer/animal that there aging In whole. Teeth don't always tell that animals story but what do I know I'm just another armchair biologist!!;)

Greg, It wouldn't surprise me if your damn close on what you think your buck ages. You know the deer In that area better then anyone else.

RE: Aging deer (Jaw bone pics)
 

Let me start with "thinking" that all deer are like humans. So please step into "my mind" for a second...

Let's use me as an example.
I am 5' 5" tall and weigh 174lbs, kind of like a 55 gallon drum. (But really handsome, as mama said so!)
It just so happens that my best hunting buddy is 5' 10" and 178 lbs., which is obvious, nothing like me. (Different genetics - right)

Lets use my teeth as an example, I have had 1 cavity in my whole life.
My buddy is having a tooth pulled every couple of years. (I know it's cuz he's a rotten bastard)
Why does Austin Powers have bad teeth? (Maybe the region he lives in - England)

Genetics obviously plays a huge role and everyone knows this. Along with science and everything else mentioned so far in this post (Key words)

Take a look at your family today @ thanksgiving. I know my family will be looking at me and wondering why I am so damn good-looking!
We have the same genetics, but are still different, why?
They will stare until I feel uncomfortable and I will wonder why they stare?
And when we all give "thanks" at the table and I will have my answer, they will say, "we are thankful for our good-looking brother Eddy".
Now Shultzy, I know your thinking it must be the milk-man! But let's not go there, this is a family show.

Here's another thought to ponder about on the biologist side... Think about the news for a minute
When there is a death or homicide, police might make a re-creation of the individual, as they can picture them, when they where alive.
They will guess on the nose size, cheek bone structure, eye shape, maybe even hair color, etc..
They usually "guesstimate" an age group, say 20's on this deceased victim.
This is their "classification" to help with identifying the dead body to match with records for missing people, etc...
Wouldn't you think that with today's technology they could figure this out, as these people are the true experts? Well I don't, its just too cumbersome to figure out!
This leads me to believe the the game biologist have the same type of tasks, without the world's help trying to solve the crime scene:eek:.

More...
Have you and your buddy ever looked at a good-looking MILF and say "wow - she has 15 kids but only looks 24".
Those are some good genetics, I mean big genetics!!!

Ok - Now I done, so please step back out of my mind, as there is only room for my other 10 voices;)

RE: Aging deer (Jaw bone pics)
 

LMAO!! That right there was some good stuff Ed!!

RE: Aging deer (Jaw bone pics)
 

You can take that statement to the bank Steve. I used to send teeth of customers bears in the the MNR to be aged and the results were laughable. I never knew so many bears could weigh over 300# at one or two years old. [:o] Same thing in WI....a buddy shot a 300#+ dressed bear here and got the age back...."Congratulations, your bear is 1 year(s) old."

RE: Aging deer (Jaw bone pics)
 

[quote]ORIGINAL: Edcyclopedia

Let me start with "thinking" that all deer are like humans. So please step into "my mind" for a second...

Let's use me as an example.
I am 5' 5" tall and weigh 174lbs, kind of like a 55 gallon drum. (But really handsome, as mama said so!)
It just so happens that my best hunting buddy is 5' 10" and 178 lbs., which is obvious, nothing like me. (Different genetics - right)

Lets use my teeth as an example, I have had 1 cavity in my whole life.
My buddy is having a tooth pulled every couple of years. (I know it's cuz he's a rotten bastard)
Why does Austin Powers have bad teeth? (Maybe the region he lives in - England)

Genetics obviously plays a huge role and everyone knows this. Along with science and everything else mentioned so far in this post (Key words)

Take a look at your family today @ thanksgiving. I know my family will be looking at me and wondering why I am so damn good-looking!
We have the same genetics, but are still different, why?
They will stare until I feel uncomfortable and I will wonder why they stare?
And when we all give "thanks" at the table and I will have my answer, they will say, "we are thankful for our good-looking brother Eddy".
Now Shultzy, I know your thinking it must be the milk-man! But let's not go there, this is a family show.

Here's another thought to ponder about on the biologist side... Think about the news for a minute
When there is a death or homicide, police might make a re-creation of the individual, as they can picture them, when they where alive.
They will guess on the nose size, cheek bone structure, eye shape, maybe even hair color, etc..
They usually "guesstimate" an age group, say 20's on this deceased victim.
This is their "classification" to help with identifying the dead body to match with records for missing people, etc...
Wouldn't you think that with today's technology they could figure this out, as these people are the true experts? Well I don't, its just too cumbersome to figure out!
This leads me to believe the the game biologist have the same type of tasks, without the world's help trying to solve the crime scene:eek:.

More...
Have you and your buddy ever looked at a good-looking MILF and say "wow - she has 15 kids but only looks 24".
Those are some good genetics, I mean big genetics!!!

Ok - Now I done, so please step back out of my mind, as there is only room for my other 10 voices;)[quote]


Now that is funny stuff Edcyclopedia. I spit some of my diet coke out laughing while reading this. I know I'm from Mississippi, but I can usually read and drink at the same time.

Greg, I am anxious to hear your final results. I'm not sure how final they will be though.
Chris

RE: Aging deer (Jaw bone pics)
 

I was waiting for the part where you tie this in to tooth wear aging vs. cementum annuli ring counting??

RE: Aging deer (Jaw bone pics)
 

[quote]ORIGINAL: GregH

Guys,
I took the jaw bone from the deer I shot this year to a good friend of mine to see what he thought it's age was. This guy is more experienced than I am when it comes to old deer. He has hunted the same area that I am since the seventies. He has also taken a lot of P&Y bucks and a couple of B&C non-typicals. In short, I believe that he knows what he's talking about.

Based on him seeing the deer and the jaw bone, he came up with 8 1/2 like I did. When we age a deer, we look at many different things. Antler mass, shape and size along with body size andshape, foot wear. One more thing we've been looking at is the thickness of the skull plates. The thinking is that as the buck gets older, his skull plate thickens. This one is over 3/8" thick. Any thoughts on this? This does not imply that we are 100% accurate, but I think we are in the ball park. Another thing to take into consideration is the location and available food sources for the deer. Where this buck lived the soil and food are not as harsh on the teeth as a sandy soiled or total browse location.

The pics are not as good as I thought. They leave out a lot of 3-d detail. Maybe I'll try again.

First a 6 1/2 year old

[quote]ORIGINAL: GregH

Greg,
My taxidermist and I have also noticed this. I do think this might be something that is worth studying more to help age deer. The skull plate definitely gets thicker with age!

RE: Aging deer (Jaw bone pics)
 

Thanks for the responses guy's!

RE: Aging deer (Jaw bone pics)
 

Greg- In whatever scientific discussion we have hadin this threadregarding tooth wear or age in general, please don't think for a second I in anyway would attempt to diminish your accomplishments with either of those deer by discussing their age.Both are obviously mature, exceptional trophies in anyones eyes and either would be a buck-in-a-lifetime for a majority of hunters. Congrats again.