Helical question
 

More helical means more spin....means more control right??

So how severe is the helical arangement of your vanes or feathers??

I just read an article that says shooting broadheads should be done with 8 degree helical and a drop away rest. I also talked with a guy at Muzzy recently about some issues I had with flight last year and the first thing he asked me was if I shot straight vanes or only a slight helical. He said anyone shooting a Muzzy head would get the best performance out of a strong helical vane or feather.


What do you guys shoot and where do I get strong helical setups from??? All I see available at shops is straight and 1 degree.


Thanks

RE: Helical question
 

Atlas

Not always, and not that simple. There are many factors that differ from shooter to shooter e.g., shooting form, bow speed, accessories, setup, etc, to say that what works for one shooter will work for all. Before I started buying and installing accessories that might not work for you, and increases maintenance and probability of failure in the field, I suggest you check your sparkplugs before you overhaul the engine.

I do not know what your " flight issues" were, but I would have asked you many other questions before I asked you (only) what vane/feather angle you shot, and told you that you need to shoot helical if you shoot a Muzzy head; and that is that. Too simplistic, and definitely nothing more than a product-promotion piece of advice.

Until last season, I have always shot a straight fletch (feather) and always had great flight. I pumped my peak about 5 lbs. to 67 lbs. last season, increased shaft spine, and I started getting some erratic (broadhead) flight and hitting lower left. After checking and rechecking form and gear setup, I finally cured the problem by a 1-degree offset on my fletch.

Several years ago, I tried a full helical when I was in a hurry and had some arrows made for me. The person who fletched the shafts apparently did not read my order thoroughly, and put a full helical on the fletch. They were too noisy and I could not get good and consistent flight. There are other shooters who swear by helical and get superb flight.

Tried vanes one time. Could not get them off my shafts fast enough.

Hope you are not making the mistake of judging your shaft flight and accuracy by believing that your broadheads are supposed to fly and hit exactly as your fieldpoints do. Some do. However, it has been my experience that most do not. When I hear or read that a shooter is complaining that his broadheads do not fly as his fieldpoints do, and do not hit where his fieldpoints do, I always ask: ' What do you use when you hunt, fieldpoints or broadheads?'

RE: Helical question
 

I think 8 is a bit severe. Your arrows in a tuned bow should shoot fine with straight fletchings. You will get a little more foregiveness with a slight helical with broadheads. I really don' t think you want 8.

RE: Helical question
 

From my brief experiences, anything past 20-25 yards for my bow and the more helical, the better. This is with field points.

What about broadhead blade alignment with the fletchings.

Shooting a prong rest, I can see the difference in the shot placement difference between the straight/1º and the radical helical arrows I have. The helical hit the prong as they go through, with cock down. Today I will try cock up and see what happens as this tread got me brain storming.

RE: Helical question
 

Tru Flites test said as close to eight as you can get. Spin does indeed equal stability. Theve been doing what the do for many years with great success, so thats who I trust. Eight does get noisy, especially with feathers but since feathers grab more air and stabilize quicker, you dont need that much with feathers. True Flites test was geared towards vanes.I use an Arizona ez flex pro or alluminum model at six degrees heli, which was originally 8 degrees heli that I heated and twisted and also another one that was one degree offset that I heated in the oven, twisted and made five degree offset. The alluminum model will work on carbons if your really carefull and prepare the shaft.Arizona also makes their carbon model in 6 which would have saved a hell of a lot of time, but I got the others at a sale for next to nothing so worked with what I had. Its taken some doing over time but b.hds. should always hit very close to f.pts. If they dont you may have a tuned bow, but you dont have arrows tuned precisely to the bow. Using perfect form while paper tuning you can get acceptable tears with a horribly over or underspined arrow but bare shafting and b.h. tuning will tell the truth very quickly.If you can get within a couple inches at 40, thats pretty good but there is absolutely no reason why b.hds. shouldnt hit with f.pts. even at 300 f.p.s. It just takes time, energy, and experimentation with finding the proper arrow spine,vane lenght, f.o.c., arrow length, etc. Thats one of the main reasons, when I find a bow arrow combo that works for me, Ill shoot it till theres nothing left and then find a bow with specs close or equal to what I had. I couldnt do what PA Bowhunter does. If I got a new bow every 6 months and had to worry about all that tuning, Id be a quivering mass of worthless flesh.Finding the proper setup is usually a long drawn out process. Getting close and just moving your sight pins for b.hds. will of course work, but you can still go farther.

RE: Helical question
 

Ask away :D

RE: Helical question
 

So we seem to have people from both sides here.

Do you guys shoot straight or 1 degree??

or


Strong Helical???


This article I read (Peterson' s I think) made it sound like if you didn' t shoot strong helical you were crazy.

I want to know before I order my new arrows.

RE: Helical question
 

I shoot helical fletching, it does help to stabilize the arrow, check out the report with the JOJAN Fletcher, they sell straight or helical fletchers and they give you the facts for whatever use you want. For broadheads, I have great success with about 8-10 degree helical and use it for 3-D too, yes to need to tune the blades to your feathers or vanes but it does help a lot.;)

RE: Helical question
 

Check out Truflights home page they have helped me a lot
and right there if you need questions answered or to help.:)

RE: Helical question
 

I was shooting a heical with feathers on a 2314 shafts just bought carbon express cx shafts premade with vanes and an offset. the cx are or close to the weight of 2314. I did nothing to the rest or bow. I belive the pertsons artical was close.
I didn' t notice much flight differance at the 3d shoot( i literaly grabbed them and went to the shoot.) though i still preferrr feathers and i will be going to a straight fleched arinzona ez fletch. the question i have and i got enough feathers laying around to see if the 4" feathers will stablize the 100 grain thunder heads or should i shoot 5" . good luck this may have helped a bit.

RE: Helical question
 

Atlasman

Need to know what type of bow you are shooting, your setup, peak weight, draw length, release or fingers, type of rest, vanes, type of shafts, broadhead weight, etc, and what " flight issues" you were having, or have.

Stay tuned. There are many shooters that will have different advice and opinions. Somewhere in the mix, you should find the solution and your best setup. However, finding the cure and establishing the best setup is not always a simple task. Depends on how serious you are about tweaking to the ultimate.

Just for starters, I want to say something about the " other side of the coin" regarding helical vs. other.

1. The NEED for helical, especially SEVERE helical, CAN be an indicator that there are other problems with your form or your setup, and it is requiring some degree of helical to cancel the overlooked (true) problem(s).

2. Helical CAN be counterproductive to good flight/accuracy when shot off SOME of today' s fast bows.

3. SOME carbon/graphite shafts do not shoot well with helical.

4. Small diameter shafts do accept helical very well and cause rest clearance problems that often cannot be resolved unless you go to a drop-away, which in my opinion, only introduces more (possible) problems or failure while in the field, and more maintenance.

5. If helical is being required to cancel other unknown problems, the shaft will loose speed and accuracy as the helical imparts forces to correct bad flight.


PS:

Not always true!

RE: Helical question
 

Fred Bear TRX, 63lbs, 250 fps, 26" draw, Tru ball stinger release, NAP Drop Away rest, 4" vanes, Beman ICS Hawk 500' s, shot 90 grain 4 blade Muzzy then switched to 75 grain WASP mechanical, The Muzzy heads produced random flyers and were just not as accurate as I thought they should be.

Before I waste your time........the bow was paper tuned, the heads were aligned in every possible way with the vanes, heads were changed between shafts, heads were taken apart and reassembled to be sure they were a tight fit, bow was taken to 2 different shops and looked at by a half dozen different guys that all said it was in tune, field tips stacked arrows out to 30 yards with great arrow flight, broadheads flew OK but had random flyers that would go off target by a foot or more in random directions.........switched to the WASP mechanical and they flew exactly with my field tips and my sig shows how they performed.

I wish I could get Muzzy' s to fly straight......As of right now I can' t. Hope you can help because no one else has.


Very.......I am a perfectionist.


There obviously is a problem somewhere with me or the equipment..........those are the only two things it could be. I am not Robin Hood but I can shoot better then average I would say. I may not have Olympic form but I don' t think I have any MAJOR flaws that are causing this problem.......if it was my form I think the flyers would be happening all the time and not randomly.

RE: Helical question
 

Atlas:

Because you say that you get good accuracy and flight with other shaft setups, I am going to do something that one should never do when trying to track down a flight and accuracy problem. I am going to ignore some of the many possible causes and land squarely on some of your gear.

First, although I can read, I do not shoot carbons and I am not personally familiar with " fall away" rests. I will point out some things I personally know, have questions about, or know that others have had problems due to certain gear and/or setups, and hope that those shooters who have used certain gear I speak about, will jump in here and provide some information and advice.

1. Your bow setup/tune and your form can be so close to the line of good vs. bad, the slightest variance in form and release will often throw a shaft off course. Usually, the shooter is aware of this close-to-line situation. However, he or she often believes the situation is innate to the bow and setup, and that there is nothing he or she can do about it other than try and shoot with robotic and programmed form. When the truth is, the shooter was able to get a bad tuned bow, a bad form, and the wrong gear, to perform well as long as the shooter did not cross the " line of departure."

2. I do not shoot 4-bladed broadheads, but I am aware of shooters who were (also) unable to get 4-bladed broadheads to fly consistently well. Why? I do not know and I have not researched why. However, I doubt whatever flight problems may occur with 4-bladed broadheads, it would make a shaft fly 12" off the point of aim, and in two different directions.

3. Short shafts are notorious for small mistakes being compounded into greater flight and accuracy problems.

4. Shafts mounted with broadheads lighter than 100 grains are (often) known to affect flight when mounted on certain spined shafts, of certain weights, and shot off bows having high peaks and fast speeds. I believe the problem is TOC related, especially on short shafts. I personally would not shoot a broadhead lighter than 125 grains.

5. Complaints about certain Muzzy heads not flying consistently good, is not uncommon.

As I said, I do not shoot carbons and have never set one up. However, something about your shaft spine, length, broadhead weight, and the bow' s peak weight is not ringing true. Someone with more knowledge about carbon shaft setup, jump in here.

For starters, and boiling it down, the things that come to mind regarding such a drastic off-course flight, and in two different directions, are:

1. Bad shaft(s). Confirm if same shaft are the shafts that are flying erratic.
2. Vanes are clipping something, sometimes.
3. Unconsciously grasping bow (sometimes) upon release.
4. Shaft setup is creating wrong spine for bow' s set draw-weight.
5. Something occurring with drop-away rest.

Before I would decide that it is a helical setting that will be the cure-all, I would look for some of the above, first.

At season' s end, I always relax the limbs on my bows. When I crank the limbs back up, I sometimes have a similar flight problem. But I always follow a rule I learned a long time ago.Never select and setup a shaft to a preferred and set draw-weight. Pick a shaft and shaft setup that will fall within a range of a draw-weights you will settle for, and dial in the bow to the shaft.

I have one bow that I wanted to shoot at 65-lbs. When I dialed in the bow until I was getting superb shaft flight and accuracy, I ended up with a draw-weight of 65-lbs. On my new bow, I wanted to shoot 65-lbs. but after dialing in my bow to the shafts, I ended up at 67-lbs. draw-weight.

Let us see what other shooters say or suspect.

RE: Helical question
 

C903, when does spin not equal more stability in arrows. There was in fact another good article in one of the hunting rags a while back. Spin either achieved through offset or heli is more accurate. Tru Flights proved it along with others. Im not sure what you consider hype, but to me that aint it. I also think your confusing the feather and vane issue. You can get by with less in a feather. I said that before. Any time you put a feather on, even straight its got built in spin by being right or left wing and naturally laying to the side and also because of more texture, and therefore grabbing more air. Natures own Kurly vane. Can you get by with one degree offset and small cut heads. Sure, with feathers and if every shot you take with the same setup with vanes is with perfect form and conditions. Thats very unrealistic in a hunting envirement. Atlas are your arrows numbered, and is it the same arrow every time flying erratic. If not, number those puppies and find out. As I go back and read your post I see youve mixed and matched heads so its obviously a random problem. I have seen some problems with cable slide mounted dropaways where the cable controlling the action will occasionally upon release make contact with arrow or fletch. In fact with the Nap and their hard cable thats where Id look first. Ive seen this first hand and read of the problem with many others. If that cables flopping and banging those shafts, bhd flight will suffer. Id coat that whole arrow and the cable also with foot spray and make sure the only mark I was getting was from the prongs. If its indeed the cable, rip that thing off and go with something softer like release rope or serving. Definately one of NAPS dumber ideas. Mizek musta been off on vacation hunting when they got the bright idea for the hard cable. I think you can definately mark off one and four on 903s list. Its very possible its a combination of 2 and five. As far as answer number three. Thats the idea with either more heli or offset and spin and why it is a better setup for b.hds. It wont of course fix the problem if form is responsible for the erratic arrows, but it will make them more managable.

RE: Helical question
 

How about trying 3 bl 75gr muzzy' s. My draw is 26" I shoot blackhawk vapor' s
with feather' s straight heli I shoot 60# at 255 fps tru ball release, just about the same set up as you except I use a 2 prong rest this set up shoot' s 6" grouping' s
at 30yrds with the 3 blade 75gr muzzy' s.

RE: Helical question
 

I realize that slight variations in form can throw off a shot. If you use this as an excuse though it can and will drive you nuts. The bad part about this (even though it is true) is it is so hard to pinpoint. It MAY be my form........it may NOT be. I have seen many people that I know I shoot as well as or better have no trouble with heads flying so I really don' t think it is me (could be wrong though).



I am going to shoot 3 blade this year to eliminate this possability.



Well I can' t make my arms any longer so no sense worrying about it :)



Again, I know a ton of people that have no trouble shooting heads of 100 grains or less even. I took my buck with a 75 grain WASP mechanical. I just shot the head that was closest to my field tip weight because they fly so well.

Funny, everytime I bring it up people tell me my bow must be out of tune or my form is to blame. You are one of maybe a couple guys that have said the head could be the cause.


The shafts follow Bemans chart for my setup.


No, I numbered all the shafts and switched them up in infinate combos trying to eliminate a bad shaft.

Coated the rest many times looking for clearance issues. Nothing. Coated the riser.....nothing. Don' t know what else they could be clipping.

Possible I' m sure. I did loosen my sling up quite a bit one day and the bow would fall right out of my hand when it shot so I didn' t think I was choking the grip. I actually tried putting more grip pressure to see the results and truthfully it really made no noticable difference either way.

Like I said I followed the Beman chart so I don' t see how shaft spine could be the issue.


I would think if it was the rest not dropping correctly it would effect my field tips also. It isn' t a clearance issue as I stated above so I think the rest is innocent.


It just seems like things should not be so complex. I can see minor issues here and there but come on........it can' t be this hard or not many people would have good BH flight.......DAMN IT I have friends that screw heads on and just keep stacking arrows without missing a beat........if anything they just have to fine tune a hair [:@] [:@] [:@] I am happy for them but makes my blood boil that I had so much trouble


Thanks

RE: Helical question
 

:)

Ditto!

PS: How old is your bow and how many arrows do you believe you have shot off the bow? A nephew of mine was having similar problems. He was getting inconsistent flyers of 6" to 7" off POA. I told him to take bow to pro shop and have bow checked for limb and/or wheel problems. Problem was identified as worn shims and worn cam bushings. Replaced both and cured flyer problem.

RE: Helical question
 

Atlas, I wish I had you and the bow in front of me. Be alot easier. Have you spray tested the cable linkage on the rest. Thats the only thing thats making sense to me because I have seen it with the Naps and hard cable before. You wont see that much difference in grouping with f.pts. or mechs but if its sometimes banging the shaft with b.hds. they can fly God knows where. It doesnt take much to send a fixed blade on a new course.Make sure your cables adjusted as short as possible. That will take some experimentation to find out what you can get away with as far as drop timeing so Id probably wait on that for now. For now make sure the twists are out of that cable and at rest the cable is either bowed up or down. Bowed in, bad. Get the twist out, spray it, look for any contact. Thats just the only thing to me that makes sense if its truly random. If you can get good groups all day long with f.pts and mechs, but ocassional horrrid random flyers with b.hds. its either form related or something is lightly banging the arrow once in a while. Im gonna trust you on the form issue, so if its random arrows it has to be a contact issue. Thats the best I can do without seeing you shoot or the setup. Wish I could do more, but dont give up.

RE: Helical question
 

Fletchhead

In terms of physics of " drag" affects only, you are correct when you say that some spin can contribute to stability. However, I am speaking in terms of too much helical for the setup, or helical being a problem for the setup e.g., clearance issues.

As for all shafts having some degree of spin in flight, I like to use the terms " spin" and " rotate," only to indicate more or less rotation. Full-blown helical will impart a greater " spin" than the " rotation" that will occur with straight or 1-4 degree of offset fletch/vane.

When you say that feather-fletch will " …lay to the side," are you actually saying that the entire fletch will bend sideways?

Also, as for feathers vs. vanes regarding speed of stabilizing the shaft and downrange speed, that argument has been won a long time ago. Feathers stabilize a shaft much faster, and for the first 30-50 yards, dependent upon setup, vanes cannot catch the feathered shaft. Tests have shown that a feathered shaft leaves the bow approximately 25 fps to 27 fps faster than a vaned shaft does.

Additionally, for those who like " spin," slow-frame videos have shown that an offset/helical feather begins to spin/rotate as soon as the shaft leaves the string, but that plastic/mylar vanes with helical/offset do not start to turn/spin until 7' to 8' AFTER clearing the BOW.

Calculate the above stated data into average yardage of a shot at a deer, and a close in shot. Not to mention feather vs. vane clearance and contact-in-flight issues.

http://www.trueflightfeathers.com/facts.htm




As for " Atlas' " problem, sure is beginning to point to the drop-away rest.

RE: Helical question
 

C109, Nice picture. No what Im saying is with a dropaway, he can shoot as much heli or offset as he wants. Clearance as far as fletch to rest isnt the issue. My point being with feathers, either being right or left wing, even if put on straight they will want to go over to one side or the other, bend wise or grain wise. Im not explaining this well. I cant think or how to word it.According to your picture, that isnt true. I will stand corrected on that issue untill I see a clearer picture.

RE: Helical question
 

Fletch

Regardless of differing opinions, especially when based on experience, all is relevant. It is like going into a candy store with hundreds of jars of different kinds of candy to choose from. All look good, some are not good; but in the end it is the person who is eating the candy that decides which candy suits their taste. :)

I do not have any experience with drop-away rests, but your analysis that the rest could be a culprit -and why, sounds righteous enough to make me follow your suggestion if I was shooting a drop-away.....which I would never use...a drop-away, that is. ;)

RE: Helical question
 

The bow is 1 year old and probably has 300+/- shots through it.

I had some serving wear near the cam but that is all. I just got it back from the shop last week. There are no worn out parts on this bow........except maybe the shooter ;)

RE: Helical question
 

I have not tried that. The TRX has a low monted cable arm so the NAP cable stays nice and low and I really don' t even see how it could contact the arrow shaft..........but hey you never know??? I never thought an arrow would flex the way it does until I saw that Easton video either.

I will give it a shot......or two ;)

RE: Helical question
 

It is??? Why do you say that??

RE: Helical question
 

Atlas

Not the rest itself.

Seems as though you have eliminated other possibilites. Therefore, I will allow Fletch to take the lead. He seems to know the arrow-rest and some things about the rest that can cause erratic arrow flight.

RE: Helical question
 

Sorry Atlas, that I didnt get back to this. I havent been on in a few days. Im like you. If the cable rods low mounted I cant imagine it making contact either. It might be wise to follow C903s advice. Take the tension off and check for wear on the cam bearing or a bent axle. Other than that Im totally out of ideas.

RE: Helical question
 

Atlasman,
It seems as though you' ve done your homework in trying to find the problem. Fletch and C903 have both given you good advice. Sometimes tuning is a simple process and sometimes it makes you pull your hair out.

The only other thing I can think of is that your shafts are possibly right on the borderline for spine. I' m not familiar with those shafts so I can' t speak from experience where they are concerned. I can say however, that some of the charts seem to be a bit off these days. The bows have gotten much faster which in turn demands more spine from the arrow shafts. I think some of the arrow charts are being left behind by some of the newer/faster bows.

A slightly underspined shaft can literally drive you crazy because it can paper tune and shoot field points perfectly, but the fact that it' s wobbling through the air like a wet noodle makes it go haywire with broadheads. I don' t know if this is your problem, but it would be worth looking into. You can turn your bow down a few turns and then go through the tuning process again. Make sure you' re still getting bullet holes and groups and then try your broadheads again. If this fixes your problem and you want to shoot the heavier weight, you can always go up in spine on your arrow.

I have had problems with underspined shafts in the past, but have never had any problems getting extra stiff shafts to tune. Just thought I would suggest it.

Good luck getting it shooting properly.

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