Is there anything wrong with a lot of does??
 

So I hear a lot about "deer management" and how its good to shoot the does and I guess I just have never completely understood this. I mean, if you have more does, wouldnt that result in more deer and therefore atleast some of those would have to be bucks which means more deer?? Or am I missing something in there. I just dont understand how the taking of does manages the herd, if you had more does, the herd would get bigger which would be a good thing...right?? So help me out here guys, I just dont totally understand the whole point behind shooting the does. I in no way think its wrong or something that shouldnt be done, because I understand it is a good thing to take the old and mature animals out witch would be the old does, but I just dont get how it "helps" the herd....

Any input it appreciated!!

Thanks guys!

RE: Is there anything wrong with a lot of does??
 

OK BHB.....come along for a ride into "My world".....

To answer your question, plainly.....NO. There's nothing wrong with a lot of does. The caveat is, though.....IF you also have a lot of bucks. What you're striving for is a better "balance" (buck:doe ratio). 1:1 would be ideal....but 1:2 wouldn't be anything to sneeze at, either.

Nothing wrong with a lot of does.....until they become too many for the property to sustain (overflow the carrying capacity for the land they inhabit). You could be heavily doe laden (as far as buck:doe ratio)....but as far as "I" am concerned....still...just having a lot of does wouldn't be the end of the world.

OK.....so let's say you DO have too many does for your area....OR....your buck:doe ratio is out of whack (these are the issues that face a LOT of guys who post here). I disagree on only taking the most mature animals from the herd. I think you'd be better served in taking out does from across the age spectrum. Some bios back this....but it's far from being set in stone (as the best method).

Also...I think it's important to note.....that most people have a VERY unrealistic (in a negative way) view of their buck:dpe ratio. I know I used to.....until I learned more about it. It's impossible for it to get to numbers I see cited here, sometimes. When you see guys saying it's 1:10 and even hogher.....throw up your bull**** meter's red flag;). It's mathematically impossible for this to occur.

A deer herd with a buck:doe ratio of 1:1 creates competition for mating (good for hunters). I'd love to see LESS deer.....but more bucks. I have too many does, here.....and that's why I target them when it makes sense in my hunts to take them (I even go into some hunts looking for a doe).

Other things....

1. Does will push bucks off of food sources if they heavily outnumber them.
2. Bucks use a TREMENDOUS amount of energy during the rut. The more does they have to try to breed.....the more energy they have to use doing that .....instead of using that energy to build their bodies and their racks.
3. Bucks, by nature, are a more solitary creature. This is why MANY (including myself, previously) think their buck:doe ratio is worse than it really is. They're just not seeing the bucks.....but they're seeing a lot of does. SO they put 2 and 2 together......kinda;). Bucks won't want to frequent areas that are heavily doe laden. It goes against their survival instinct to be so visible as to be seen with a larger herd. They'll (some of them) chance a bachelor group.....but a large group isn't normally in their makeup. There are exceptions to this....the rut....winter yarding....etc...but in general....bucks don't hag out where a lot of does hang out. I've had to learn this, too.;)

I hope if you have more questions you'll send me a PM. Jeff knows - Too many does.:D

If I screwed this up....I'm sure someone will set me straight....but I've done a LOT of reading on this subject...as it's one close to my heart.

RE: Is there anything wrong with a lot of does??
 

Well said GMMAT!

RE: Is there anything wrong with a lot of does??
 

Besides all the good stuff that Jeff hit on, what you also have to take into account is the amount of total deer for the habitat too. Different places can support different amounts of deer. There can be too many deer which basically eat themselves out of an area and to long term harm to the habitat.

Lastly at least in populated areas, human/deer conflict is another factor for the need to control does. People don’t like hitting them with cars(and no it NOT the insurance company conspiracy), and people don’t like deer eating their expensive landscaping plants.

RE: Is there anything wrong with a lot of does??
 

I solved this one for my wife this year by buying some liquid fence. I sprayed that stuff all over the foundation plants and her flower gardens once or twice a month and nothing touched them, but the neighbor's sure got hit hard later in the Summer. And I know why, the next time you're in the hardware store, smell some of that stuff. It smells like somone had stomach problems and vacated themselves into the bottle. But it works!

RE: Is there anything wrong with a lot of does??
 

Jeff, i agree with everything you mentioned, but why is it impossible to have a way out of wack buck to doe ratio like 1 to 10?I know that bucks and does are bred at about a 50:50 ratio, actually i think its alittle more in favor of bucks, but In high pressured areas, such as one property that i hunt, anything with horns on his head is shot. Is there any research that you have found that proves this?

RE: Is there anything wrong with a lot of does??
 

Besides what everyone has said (good Info by the way) by not taking any doe's out your buck/doe ratio will get way out of wack which normally Is already and you will then start to see doe's without fawns being not all the doe's got bred during there estrus period. Reason being, too many doe's and not enough bucks to get er done! In reality your deer population In general will actually suffer because of this. What good are all the doe's running around If you have no bucks to do any breeding? This Is a major problem In my area I hunt In. Too many doe's without fawns and not nearly enough bucks. IMO they need to give out more anterless only tags In some area's to even out the herd somewhat.

RE: Is there anything wrong with a lot of does??
 

Good info GMMAT, we appreciate it. Answers a lot of questions that I had myself. Just a question on one thing you said...
Why is this?Wouldthis affect the competition for does in estrous, or would it bring a better balance age-wise, or...?

RE: Is there anything wrong with a lot of does??
 

Well said GMMAT

RE: Is there anything wrong with a lot of does??
 

Kudos Jeff.

RE: Is there anything wrong with a lot of does??
 

Thank you VERY much guys!!

This is a lot of info that helps and answers ALOT of questions!

So approximately...how many does would you say a buck breeds on average during one rut??

Ok so behind my house, I have2 mature bucks that I KNOW of this year but Ive only had my camera up for a month up there, and quite a bit of doe activity, not a TON but a lot and I can defenitely tell that some of these are OLD does, one looks pretty cool....shes got a double patch neck and Ive had her in bow range more than once, but my question would be, if the Buck to doe ratio isnt to bad probably 1:3, 1:4....what would it do to the herd to take a doe? Would it hurt it, or strengthen it?

Thanks again!

RE: Is there anything wrong with a lot of does??
 

BHB, go ahead and take as many does as you want, no one person is going to put a big dent in the population. Taking a few does will not hurt at all, in fact it will probably do the opposite. By there being less does in the area, a buck will have to look just alittle bit harder to find an estrus doe, which means he will be on his feet more often traveling greater distances, thus making it more likely to walk by your stand during daylight hours.
As for your question about how many does a buck will breed, i have read various reports, but they all seem to say that its not as many as you would think. It seems as though the concensus was anywhere from 2-7 does, although one article stated that a mature buck might only sire 10 fawns in a lifetime.

RE: Is there anything wrong with a lot of does??
 

Give me the overall herd numbers you think you have.....and what you "think" your buck:doe ratio is....and I'll do a matrix for you. It'll become eveident.

First off.....it's hard as heck for most folks to age does (myself included). I've gotten to where I can tell the doe fawns really easily.....I can spot a yearling doe.....but after age 1.5.....I'm purely guessing. Take MY scenario out of the equation and let's just say you're trying to manage for a "balanced" herd. Taking representative animals from each age class would allow you to do that. Also....you wouldn't have an exhorbitant amount of fawn does being bred (due to the lack of older does that have been harvested). An older doe produces healthier fawns, also.

Me.....I TRY to take most any doe I can. I haven't taken a doe fawn this year....and most likely won't if my sightings don't go up. I've taken two mature does and one yearling doe. I'll contimue down this path unless I start seeing WAY more than I'm seeing, now. If I see a lot more....I'll target a couple doe fawns, too. Anyone hunting with me is ENCOURAGED (;)) to take ANY doe that offers an ehtical shot. ANY doe.

But....my overall sightings are down....and they were down from '06 - '07. That's a good thing!

I've "heard" 5-7. Gotta understand....when he breeds her....he'll stay with her as long as she's in estrous and continue to breed her repeatedly. He's probably with her for 48-72 hours. So.....if he breeds 6 does....he's using up 12-18 days of the rut ACTUALLY BREEDING (not counting seeking and chasing time).

The only caution I'd throw in here is.....WHY take does if your land isn't at the carrying capacity? I don't have any science to back this up....but each one of those does is a buck machine (think about it). Buck goes in...buck comes out.;)

RE: Is there anything wrong with a lot of does??
 

Jeff, i agree with you to not take a large amount of does if your land isnt at the carrying capacity. I assumed it was, but you know what they say about assumptions. Anyhow, according to the state for 2007-08, the one property i hunt has roughly 109 deer per square mile. For that same time period, only 12.1 deer were takenlast season and only 3.1 of those deer were bucks. These numbersare about average for years past as well. If i had to guess i would sayour ratio is about 1 buck for 5 or six does, so its not TOO out of wack, but its not toonormal to see bucks actively chasing does during therut, which leadsme to believe that there are a good number more does than bucks.Icould be WAY off though too.

RE: Is there anything wrong with a lot of does??
 

That is INCREDIBLE (the amount/sq. mi.). If you're sure about that....I'll continue.....but that's a LOT of deer.

RE: Is there anything wrong with a lot of does??
 

109 deer!!!

Dang!!!

RE: Is there anything wrong with a lot of does??
 

Jeff, i could be reading this chart incorrectly, but i dont think so. Those numbers are under the column titled, deer range per square mile. Regardless, i have a call into the NJ fish and game to try to see if im reading it correctly, if not what the actual population is and also if they have any ideas what the estimated buck to doe ratio is. Should be an interesting phone call once he gets back to me.