RE: Pass through with sharp blades verse "dull" blades
 

I just spent roughly 12hrs in a ground blind today watching robins and the occassional squirrel. I saw more dimwits than I saw deer, 2 to 0.
Don't push me. ;):D

RE: Pass through with sharp blades verse "dull" blades
 

Oh please, I was at work every bit of opening day. I would've loved to have seen a squirrel[&o]

RE: Pass through with sharp blades verse "dull" blades
 

Cant believe I am gonna respond here. Is it possible to shoot a dull head through a deer? Sure it is but this is not a matter of physics it is a matter of physioligy. Trauma induces the release of platelets to a specific area which helps in the clotting process. All bodies do this to protect themselves. The less trauma induced the less of a reaction from the body to protect itself. (sharper= less trauma)

Would doctors rather see a clean cut or a jagged cut? Of course the clean one because they are trying to fix it. A chain saw wound is miserable for doctors to fix, but its tough to sneak up on a deer with a running chain saw too.

As far as the stone heads are concerned burnie is correct they can be knapped to 1 micron in thickness a surgeons scalpel on average is 25 microns in thickness.

just my 0.02

Rogue

RE: Pass through with sharp blades verse "dull" blades
 

Knapped heads are very sharp and have been effective over the last 5,000 years or so. As to what edge causes more damage/ less clotting, I don't know, I'm not a doctor (I know it's a big shock to everyone[8D]). The fact remains, a sharper head will penetrate deeper since it has less resistance than a dull head.

If you sneak a dull broadhead into the lungs, heart, or liver, the punture wound probably will be fatal, but as to what gives you a better "edge" in the field, no question, a razor sharp broadhead is where it's at.

RE: Pass through with sharp blades verse "dull" blades
 

I disagree with anysharp bladetalkand blood trails. If the arrow passes through ..regardless of dull or sharp......you have a large blood trail....

I do believe sharper blades will help with penetration....but lets be real...with the speed most of us compound shooters are using ...does it matter? Dull or not...at 20 yards @ 290 FPS + you're going through lungs.

I have taken multiple animals with the same NAP spitfire mechanical..over and over...I clean the hair and tissue out of the grooves and they continue to work fine.

RE: Pass through with sharp blades verse "dull" blades
 

First off, I only got to page five before I get fed up with the BS I was reading and decided to post, so if I happen to mention something that was posted in the remaining several pages, I appologize.

Nissan - Apparently you need someone to explain to you that there is a difference between a dull blade and a serrated blade. A serrated blade is still sharp. A dull blade is, well, dull. I honestly can't understand the logic behind your thinking, if you've even got any. Are you posting simply to post and stir the pot or do you really buy into the crap thats coming out of your mouth?

I've really got to agree with Rob here, this thread is advocating the use of dull blades. Anyone who says that a dull blade is just as effective as a razor sharp blade is completely off base.

Ever get a paper cut? How bad did it bleed? Pretty bad, I bet. How long did it take to stop? Quite awhile, would be my guess. Wonder why? Less tissue was actually damaged, sending less responses to your body to tell it to begin the process of repairing the damaged tissue. When you cut yourself with a dull blade, the tissue is torn, sending more signals telling your body to start clotting and repaiging itself.

On top of that, if the dull blades don't manage to snag the tissue and tear it, its simply pushing the veins, arterys, and organs out of the way without damaging them at all. Yeah, you'll get a passthrough, no problem. Yeah, you might kill your deer, but I garauntee you your blood trail will be less than optimal.

Always replace or resharpen your broadheads before using them. We owe it to the game we pursue to put them down as quickly and humanely as we possibly can. Why take the chance of getting anything less than an optimal blood trail to follow?

RE: Pass through with sharp blades verse "dull" blades
 

"I have taken multiple animals with the same NAP spitfire mechanical..over and over...I clean the hair and tissue out of the grooves and they continue to work fine."


WOW!! Send me your address and I will send you a buck or two toward new broadheads..

RE: Pass through with sharp blades verse "dull" blades
 

nissan, do a test for me....

Gather a serrated steak knife that is 3-4 years old from your kitchen, nice and used....then get a brand new straight razor.

Extend your left arm, cut it with the serrated steak knife with moderate pressure.
Watch the bleeding and observe how long it takes to quit.

Now move down the arm 6 inches, again cut yourself with the same moderate pressure only this time with straightrazor.
Watch the gushing blood, and observe how long it takes to quit ( if it ever does):eek:


The reasoning is simple, bleeding stops from coagulation...meaning proteins form with platelets from the blood to form a clot. The more cells damaged(dull head tearing tissue) the more platelets sent to cut and the clot forms faster.....less cells damaged (clean cut) means less platelets, and the cut cant adequately heal itself as quickly....the blood just keeps flowing.

If you cant accept that for an answer I can find an article where a scientist says it in bigger words, if that will make anyone feel better about it.

RE: Pass through with sharp blades verse "dull" blades
 

just read the first post....

my answer is think of rubber bands...pass your dull head through it and it will just move the rubber bands outta the way....do it with a sharp head and it will slice them easily...


think of blood vessels and all that good stuff the same way....rather than cut through them with a dull head, it will likely pass by them....

same with tissue damage...a sharp head is going to cut MORE of the heart and lung tissue than the dull one that kinda just punches through....

RE: Pass through with sharp blades verse "dull" blades
 

Thank you Mauser and everyone else that attempted to answer my question. Just talking hunting here folks, nothing more nothing less.....good day and good luck to anyone in the field today!

And thanks TEmbry--great explanation. That is why I started this thread in the first place....too figure it all out!

RE: Pass through with sharp blades verse "dull" blades
 

First off lets remember how an Animal dies when we shoot them with an Arrow, Hemoraging......not blunt force trauma from launching a dull object at them at 300FPS.

There will be more blood, more quickly with a razor Sharp edge, than with a dull edge, because more blood vessels and veins will be cut, and deeper penetrataion will occur. Now regardless if you get a pass through or not with a dull blade, more bleeding will happen, more quickly with a Super sharp broad head. Ethically we all have a duty to ensure that we use the sharpest blades possible for the fastest and more ethical kill possible.

Quote from
Bowhunter's Guide to Accurate ShootingBy Lon E. Lauber
I'm certain most bowhunters have killed a deer or 2 with a less than Optimally sharp broadhead and gotten the job done. In spite of that Succes, there are several reasons for having acute blade-sharpness standards. Sharp edges reduce friction and increase penetration. Super-sharp blades are more likely to slice arteries and veins upon the slightest contact. Rubbery blood vessels roll or "give" without being sliced by dull blades. A finely honed blade makes a surgeon-like clean cut. This causes more profuse bleeding because there are no jagged edges for blood platelets to clot on.

Furthermore, clean and sharp cuts cause less initial trauma to the body's natural repair system, Thus, more profuse blood loss occurs quickly, before the animal's clotting mechanisms kick in to stem the bloow flow. Conversly, if you happen to make a non-lethal hit, a super-sharp blade wound will bleed profusely at first, but heal more quickly than a jagged one.

RE: Pass through with sharp blades verse "dull" blades
 

MW ... you just slipped a notch down in my eyes [&o]

"with the speed most of us compound shooters are using" Heck You can kill with a field point .....the same one .....over and over again ...what would you think of someone doing that???


With what some of you are saying, you would be BETTER OFF using the practice blades than sharp ones!!

RE: Pass through with sharp blades verse "dull" blades
 

10 pages to debate the most BASIC concept of bowhunting [:'(]I got a few pages in and can't stand to read any more. USED THE SHARPEST BLADES YOU CAN! [:@]

RE: Pass through with sharp blades verse "dull" blades
 

I think maybe I did not explain myself better in my first post....this is what I wrote, " "unless the blades are really really sharp, there won't be much of a blood trail on pass through"."

I was really just comparing very very sharp broadheads as compared to those "less" sharp. "less" sharp meaning those that are still sharp, just not deadly sharp like some of you like to have them. By saying "dull" I meant comparitvely to the extremely sharp heads. BELIEVE methat is what I meant :)

RE: Pass through with sharp blades verse "dull" blades
 

Im pretty sure guys are upset with some of the answers youve been getting, not the fact you were asking for an explanation as to why sharp=better.

VA season in yet?

RE: Pass through with sharp blades verse "dull" blades
 

You know what, somehow that doesn't suprise me. [:-] :eek: [&:] Sad.

RE: Pass through with sharp blades verse "dull" blades
 

I can't believe there would even be any kind or argument. Any hunter that doesn't buy quality sharp broadheads or atleast make sure they are razor sharp to the best of their ability is a moron.

RE: Pass through with sharp blades verse "dull" blades
 

Yes TEmbry, VA season came in yesterday..in 2.5 hours, saw three doe, 10 turkey, and a bobcat! Never in my life had I seen a bobcat in the woods. Beautiful!

RE: Pass through with sharp blades verse "dull" blades
 

I saw my first bobcat(s) last year. It was two of them. They came to investigate my "can" calling. Pretty amazing to watch.

Did you have a shot on the cat?

RE: Pass through with sharp blades verse "dull" blades
 

A cat came 5 yards from my tree while onstand Friday PM, but it was of the black and white house variety. Looked pretty scragly and most likely wasa feralbut I didnt want to chance killin some kids pet....though the thought did cross my mind to draw back...I despise cats.

Bobcats amaze me, I have seen 3 in last 2 seasons and after deer season comes to a close for me, I am making it my sole mission in life to try and down a bobcat this winter.:D

RE: Pass through with sharp blades verse "dull" blades
 

The bobcat came by broadside at 8-10 yards. He even stopped a couple of times. I could have killed him, but they are not in-season on the base I hunt. The bobcat actually scared away two doe that were 50 yards away and coming my way...they saw him after he came out of the brush and then snorted and ran off! I actually drew my bow to practice but he never saw or heard me.

RE: Pass through with sharp blades verse "dull" blades
 

I 100% agree with you Rob! Dull blades push things out of the way while it goes through.

It absolutely, 100%, positively matters on sharpness of the bladeswhen it comes to cutting and blood trails.

RE: Pass through with sharp blades verse "dull" blades
 

Somebody earlier said "sometimes you can't fix stupid". Well, here is a perfect example of that.

Man, do you have a lot to learn. What you said IS the most idiotic thing and this whole thread.

RE: Pass through with sharp blades verse "dull" blades
 

I think a pass through is what it is.

If the arrow was really dull enough to not pass through when normally thats what you have happen.
Then, maybe that is what i would call too dull of a blade.

Far as the talk about talk about,sharp smoother cutting or dull ripping and tearing.

Think about this.
If you dont think it is efficient to have the blades sharp. Then why do most broadheads come out of the package sharp. There has to be scientific study proving sharp blades are more efficient then dull ones.Either that or common sense would make the decision anyways.

RE: Pass through with sharp blades verse "dull" blades
 

This whole thread is idiotic. I can't believe that this was even brought up.

Todays bows have enough stored energy toforce even broadheads with practice blades through a deer and into the ground on the other side so the question is pretty much pointless with full power adult bows of today.Yes it will kill the animal and yes there will be blood there for you to follow.

However, a razor sharp broadhead WILL, 100% of the time, given the exactly the same shot, cause more blood loss and produce a better blood tail for you to follow.

A cut that was made with a razor sharp blade will flow blood and not clott for hours and will produce blood on the ground for far greater distances than a dull head would. It will cut tissue that a dull blade will simply push out of the way, remember that arteries and other tissues in the body are elastic and strech a great deal before tearing just like a rubber band... not so with a sharp balde,these elastictissuesand arteries will be cleanly cutopen and blood will flow and not clott.

Serrated blades aredesigned to saw through bone. They are not designed to slice easier through elastic animal tissue.

RE: Pass through with sharp blades verse "dull" blades
 

I don't think the thread is idiotic. I just thought of this last night when someone said they were not having good blood trails with Muzzy's because they were not "razor" sharp. I countered and said I have had complete pass throughs and excellent blood trails with Muzzy's even though they are not "razor" sharp. That is why I made this thread. It was not advocating using "dull blades" at all....those that know me know I have never thought like that and never will. In fact, the first two deer I shot were with mechanical heads that probably not worth a dang...cost me alot of time and energy trailing and finding those deer. I moved to COC contact heads and have been a BIG believer in them and their abilities. I kind of feel bad now even bringing this up...it was just something that popped into my head so please don't judge me on this thread...it was just a thought about a pass through, it really was that simple. After the mechanicals failing on me I have always used the sharpest heads I can find and will not shoot anything that does not feel sharp to me...never will. Not advocating any does....

RE: Pass through with sharp blades verse "dull" blades
 

I believe you that you weren't actually promoting the use of dull blades butyou might not want to start out a threadthat is promoting (intentionally or not)the use of dull blades, despite what your second line says.

And more to point ofthe idiotic comment is that there were people hereactually defending the use of actual dull blades. The very first response was promoting dull blades.

RE: Pass through with sharp blades verse "dull" blades
 

Let me post a picture of my new broadhead... under the line of thinking by a few folks here..... I am anticipating having to scrape bloody morsals off the trees directly into gallon zip lock bags with a putty knife.... a mortar attack couldn't leave a more grizzly scene than this!!! Forget no tracking... I'm not even going to need to field dress!







Seriously now.... we've been over the rubber band test... and its a good one. Another related test... try cutting a rubber band with a knife... and they try pulling one apart with your hands.... see which one takes more effort....

I hate to admit this, but I think it is pertinant to the example at hand here. I HAVE personally.... ME... not a friend, not a cousin, not big John at the bait shop.... ME... I have shot and killed a deer with Muzzy PRACTICE blades. Yes I recovered it... and no I didn't do it on purpose. The simple truth of the matter is that I got extremely lucky... I center punched the heart on that deer. It is no big suprise of course that it went about 80 yards and quit. I missed it the first time, and blindly grabbed another arrow from my quiver... deer was cooperative and held still.... lesson learned.... never carry anything other than real, sharp, functional, hunt read heads in your quiver (I do carry a bludgeon though... but it is dressed and fletched differently than my broadhead arrows). I would say that the blood trail was fairly normal of a well shot deer. The difference is.... ALL blood has to go through the heart... its grand central station. The lungs are big... and some of those capilaries and arteries are a lot bigger than others.... the lungs aren't exactly like a ballon like some folks might think.... to collapse a lung you have to take out one of the bronchial tubes... that stops the air from entering the important part of the lungs where the alveoli put oxygen in and take CO2 out. You don't just get pink foam from any old part of the lungs.... you get pink foam from hitting one of the major tubes in the lungs.

Will a dull broadhead go through a deer? Hell... just look at lead round balls or buckshot... they zip right through a deer... so will non-expanding, "armor piercing" rifle bullets. And all three of these in my experience (save the armor piercing which are illegal dang near everywhere) leave terrible (bad terrible, not good terrible) blood trails. They push their way through. Expanding bullets form sharp edges, and leave larger wound channels. Granted, they still push their way though, but there is some seriously cutting done by expanding copper and lead. Why bother with hollow point or soft tip expanding ammunition if that was not the case?

Bullets, with only certain exceptions, do in fact kill just like arrows do.... unless you hit the animal with a bullet in exactly the right cardiovascular cycle, which creates a back-flow of blood to the brain and blows out the blood vessels in the brain, or severe the nervous system... a bullet is really little more than a device which lets blood flow from the body... the more blood lost, the lower the blood pressure, and soon you have unconsciousness, blood carries oxygen which the brain needs, brain shuts down... dead. There is no "shock wave" of energy, though it may appear so... that is little more than incompressable fluids rippling from the impact... like ripples on a pond. Look at a slow motion video of someone getting punched... same effect.

RE: Pass through with sharp blades verse "dull" blades
 

Ok guys you got me..I was playing devils advocate and thinking about a specific scenario I was thinking about..IE Muzzy heads not leaving a good blood trail because they are not "very very sharp"...later all.

RE: Pass through with sharp blades verse "dull" blades
 

Thanks for setting the record straight on that one Burnie. I felt my blood pressure start to rise. :D

Anyway, I read everything and find these topics interesting. And for the record, my broadheads are as sharp as I can get them. Someone mentioned 30 degree angles, but I alter mine.

There is usually one point that is usually left out though. A lot of the old timers believed inonlyusing a file to get their broadheads sharp (there is a technique to it).Is was most definetely not because they could notget that smooth polishededge. But they believed that their broadhead would be dull before getting through the hide on the entry. Suposively the file dressed head would retain a better edge. They had extremely fine serations (need a magnifying glass to see). I never tried them but I still know some people who swear by them.

RE: Pass through with sharp blades verse "dull" blades
 

Here, to prove this theory, once and for all!!! k, a couple days ago my buddy, shot a yearling with his bow. chip shot, 15yds, perfect placement, broadside etc. this was with a rage. that was thethird deer in the past two years he has killed with a rage. nonehad went further than 40yds thus far. this deer went around 70yds. whenhe was telling me about it he said she didnt bleed as much as the other two deer he killed with rages and he was wondering if its possible that b/c it was smaller it wouldnt bleed out as much. hes not the sharpest knife in the drawer obviously, so i did a little bit of his thinking for him.

I knew he had had 2 kills with them and he never sharpened or repaired the blades. so i asked him if the bh that he killed that yearling with was one that had killed a deer the previous year. he said no, but he missed one last year with it and it just burried itself in the ground. so... he shot a deer, (PERFECT SHOT PLACEMENT) just as the other 2 had been, and he got a different result of bleeding. last year, he described blood trailing those deer as if someone dumped a milkjug of blood along the path. this time there was less bleeding and a farther distance the deer ran.

although, not scientific theory (basically chime ins, or guesses by everyone) i believe this story if you will holds more water to it than a jagged cut or clean cut clotting "theory" if you will. This is a no BS true story from a killabout a week ago. Like i said, hes definately not the brightest one in the world, but hes one of my best friends and a darn dedicated hunter, and left us with a heck of an example!

so far most of this thread has been a pissing contest with no real evidence ofan answer. i think that covered it pretty well. but im sure people are still gonna implicate that a dull head works just as well as long as it passes through(BS) it may do the job, just not as well.
Derek