Part of the solution.....or part of the problem?
08-12-2008, 08:32 AM
#21
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Posts: 7,208
RE: Part of the solution.....or part of the problem?
Thanks, Rybo. What's disheartening, to a degree, is hunting 48 times and seeing FOUR different bucks......3 of which were 1.5's.
08-12-2008, 08:51 AM
#22
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Central Minnesota
Posts: 9,445
RE: Part of the solution.....or part of the problem?
1. What's the herd dynamics where you hunt (doe v. buck numbers & overall deer numbers)? Deer numbers are in that 1,000,000 range. Doe to buck numbers- how anyone can honestly answer this with accurate numbers is beyond me. Its impossible. The ratio around me is way more in favor of the doe's, it needs to balance out more meaning less younger bucks being shot.
2. What's your preferred method of hunting (your ideology)? Trophy, only? "Opportunist" (take bucks and does)? Does, only....with the occasional buck? Opportunist I would say with a touch of trophy as well. If I have extra tags I'll get myself a doe or doe fawn. If buck hunting its 130" on up which most likely is 4.5's in my woods. If a 3.5 would sport the same size rack I'd be shooting also I think.
3. What would be your preferred method if you had a good herd structure (buck:doe ratio was good....and deer numbers were in check)? Same answer as question #2 but probably a bit more picky on the rack size (140" on up being my buck heard would be that much better).
4. Doesyour herd dynamics affect your preferred method? Sure does. I explained this already above.
Do you overlook herd dynamics and hunt "your" way? As far as I'm concerned the way I'm managing the property is the way it needs to be done.
Another thing too. I think its impossible for 1 or 2 bow hunters to manage a doe herd in an area where your trying to thin the doe's out where you can only shoot a few does each year.
2. What's your preferred method of hunting (your ideology)? Trophy, only? "Opportunist" (take bucks and does)? Does, only....with the occasional buck? Opportunist I would say with a touch of trophy as well. If I have extra tags I'll get myself a doe or doe fawn. If buck hunting its 130" on up which most likely is 4.5's in my woods. If a 3.5 would sport the same size rack I'd be shooting also I think.
3. What would be your preferred method if you had a good herd structure (buck:doe ratio was good....and deer numbers were in check)? Same answer as question #2 but probably a bit more picky on the rack size (140" on up being my buck heard would be that much better).
4. Doesyour herd dynamics affect your preferred method? Sure does. I explained this already above.
Do you overlook herd dynamics and hunt "your" way? As far as I'm concerned the way I'm managing the property is the way it needs to be done.
Another thing too. I think its impossible for 1 or 2 bow hunters to manage a doe herd in an area where your trying to thin the doe's out where you can only shoot a few does each year.
08-12-2008, 08:53 AM
#23
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Phoenixville, PA USA
Posts: 5,541
RE: Part of the solution.....or part of the problem?
ORIGINAL: Rick James
Bryan:
I'm familiar with what QDMA says, I've been a member since 2001. My property has one neighbor that isn't QDMA exactly, but he won't shoot bucks unless they 8+ pointers. He won't shoot does. The other neighbor has given Dan and I exclusive permission to bowhunt, but gets slammed during gun season.My other neighbors are a circus and often trespass on our patches as well, although I think we will fix that this year.
Dan's property is surrounded by public property and other neighbors that shoot everything that walks.
I do not think it will be an easy task to improve age structure of the bucks unless you have 500+ acres. You may see measurable results, but certainly not what you would have if you could control an entire 500+ acre patch. We have seen limited success with that so far, but nothing that I would say is measurable and can be contributed directly to our choice to not shoot. I hope this will change, if not I will continue to do the same thing only because I know I can't shoot a big buck if my tag is already full with a small one. I do however strongly believe that you can directly affect the buck/doe population by thinning the doe herd. For every doe you take, if you have good bedding/food resources available another deer seems to replace it within a year. I've seen this consistently. It's a 50/50 chance it will be a buck/doe. Keep shootingthe does at a higher rate than what your attracting to relocate to your patch, and it's simple math. It works, and what Dan and I have seen is measurable, and no........none of our neighbors have helped with this.
ORIGINAL: HuntingBry
Matt, I'm not saying that the results you have seen and documented with your own experience aren't true, but even the QDMA says managing properties 250 acres and under is difficult to impossible without entering into a coop with neighboring landowners. Reason being the effects of outside properties bleed into the controls you are trying to apply because the property is so small. Do you have coops or at least neighbors that are following management practices as well? If so, that is great and I hope you guys continue to see the positive results. If not, maybe your results will inspire some of them to follow suit.
ORIGINAL: Rick James
I respectfully disagree with this. I have journal entries from 2003-2007 on the 130 acre family property we have showing that it is possible. My best bud (Jawshooter) has the same thing on his property in NY with journal entries to back it up. Both of these properties 5-7 years ago were producing 1/4+ buck/doe ratios. Keep in mind, you have to pull fawns completely out of the equation. Now both of them are producing 1/1 or even slightly more bucks than does. It's possible, it's just a lot of work and discipline.
ORIGINAL: kickin_buck
It is near impossible for one man with a limited amount of land to manage the buck-doe ratio. Where I do most of my hunting in Illinois, I have way more does than bucks. Sure I take almost every doe that walks past me, but I know doing so is only a very small drop in a very large bucket.
It is near impossible for one man with a limited amount of land to manage the buck-doe ratio. Where I do most of my hunting in Illinois, I have way more does than bucks. Sure I take almost every doe that walks past me, but I know doing so is only a very small drop in a very large bucket.
I'm familiar with what QDMA says, I've been a member since 2001. My property has one neighbor that isn't QDMA exactly, but he won't shoot bucks unless they 8+ pointers. He won't shoot does. The other neighbor has given Dan and I exclusive permission to bowhunt, but gets slammed during gun season.My other neighbors are a circus and often trespass on our patches as well, although I think we will fix that this year.
Dan's property is surrounded by public property and other neighbors that shoot everything that walks.I do not think it will be an easy task to improve age structure of the bucks unless you have 500+ acres. You may see measurable results, but certainly not what you would have if you could control an entire 500+ acre patch. We have seen limited success with that so far, but nothing that I would say is measurable and can be contributed directly to our choice to not shoot. I hope this will change, if not I will continue to do the same thing only because I know I can't shoot a big buck if my tag is already full with a small one. I do however strongly believe that you can directly affect the buck/doe population by thinning the doe herd. For every doe you take, if you have good bedding/food resources available another deer seems to replace it within a year. I've seen this consistently. It's a 50/50 chance it will be a buck/doe. Keep shootingthe does at a higher rate than what your attracting to relocate to your patch, and it's simple math. It works, and what Dan and I have seen is measurable, and no........none of our neighbors have helped with this.
It really sounds like an uphill battle you have, but I like the perspective you have on shooting does that you have a 50/50 chance of it being replaced by a buck. It's true that while that doe is alive and living in your area that you have zero chance of it being replaced by a buck. So you are giving yourselves a fighting chance in that regard. I just never thought of it like that. It's unfortunate that your efforts are not beingfollowed by your neighbors, but not all that surprising either. Good luck in keeping the ball rolling with your management plan. It does sound like you are making progress, so I hope that you will see the fruits of your labors sooner rather than later.
08-12-2008, 10:47 AM
#24
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Burke, VA (raised in MD)
Posts: 1,096
RE: Part of the solution.....or part of the problem?
ORIGINAL: GMMAT
It'll hurt my buck hunting
It'll hurt my buck hunting
You're assigning some statistical signicance to sighting differences thatare probably a result of other factors (you mentioned elusiveness, other 'hunters' etc). My plan is to continue killing does at periphal stands, hunt the biguns at my prime spots around Halloween and hope the dog hunters don't spoil the last three years' work.
08-12-2008, 10:51 AM
#25
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,102
RE: Part of the solution.....or part of the problem?
ORIGINAL: GMMAT
1. What's the herd dynamics where you hunt (doe v. buck numbers & overall deer numbers)? MY ESTIMATION OF THE DOE TO BUCK RATIO WOULD BE BETWEEN 5 AND 6 TO 1.OUR OVER ALL DEER NUMBERS ARE QUITE LOW.
2. What's your preferred method of hunting (your ideology)? Trophy, only? "Opportunist" (take bucks and does)? Does, only....with the occasional buck? DOING MY BEST TO HOLD OUT FOR 3.5 YEAR OLD BUCKS OR OLDER,I WILL FILL EVERY DOE TAG I HAVE,WHICH IS ORDINARILY 2 OR 3.I WILL ONLY FILL THEM IN AREA'S WHERE I BELIEVE AN AREA CAN STAND THE LOSS.
3. What would be your preferred method if you had a good herd structure (buck:doe ratio was good....and deer numbers were in check)?TROPHY HUNTING WITH A 2 DOE TO 1 BUCK RATIO.
4. Doesyour herd dynamics affect your preferred method? Do you overlook herd dynamics and hunt "your" way? I DEFINITELY DO NOT OVER LOOK HERD DYNAMICS.I BELIEVE MOST EVERY AREA HAS IT'S OWN SET OF UNIQUE CHARACTERISTICS.
LAST SUMMER AND EARLY FALL I WAS RUNNING TWO TRAIL CAMERA'S I WOULD MOVE THEM EVERY 2 WEEKS,I HAD THEM IN AT LEAST 5 LOCATIONS AND I DIDN'T GET ONE BUCK OF ANY AGE ON CAMERA.I GOT DOE'S CONSISTENTLY GOT 4 BEARS BUT NOT ONE BUCK.IN ALL OF THE ARCHERY SEASON AND THE RIFLE SEASON AND MUZZLELOADER SEASON I SAW A TOTAL OF 4 BUCKS.2 1.5 YEAR OLDS AND 2 2.5 YEAR OLDS.
THE YEAR BEFORE I SAW 8 OR 9 2.5 YEAR OLDS.I THOUGHT I WOULD BE ROLLING IN 3.5 YEAR OLDS THIS PAST SEASON.NOT THE CASE,NOT HELPED BY THE UNUSUALLY WARM ARCHERY SEASON BUT STILL SHOULDN'T HAVE BEEN AS POOR AS IT WAS.
1. What's the herd dynamics where you hunt (doe v. buck numbers & overall deer numbers)? MY ESTIMATION OF THE DOE TO BUCK RATIO WOULD BE BETWEEN 5 AND 6 TO 1.OUR OVER ALL DEER NUMBERS ARE QUITE LOW.
2. What's your preferred method of hunting (your ideology)? Trophy, only? "Opportunist" (take bucks and does)? Does, only....with the occasional buck? DOING MY BEST TO HOLD OUT FOR 3.5 YEAR OLD BUCKS OR OLDER,I WILL FILL EVERY DOE TAG I HAVE,WHICH IS ORDINARILY 2 OR 3.I WILL ONLY FILL THEM IN AREA'S WHERE I BELIEVE AN AREA CAN STAND THE LOSS.
3. What would be your preferred method if you had a good herd structure (buck:doe ratio was good....and deer numbers were in check)?TROPHY HUNTING WITH A 2 DOE TO 1 BUCK RATIO.
4. Doesyour herd dynamics affect your preferred method? Do you overlook herd dynamics and hunt "your" way? I DEFINITELY DO NOT OVER LOOK HERD DYNAMICS.I BELIEVE MOST EVERY AREA HAS IT'S OWN SET OF UNIQUE CHARACTERISTICS.
LAST SUMMER AND EARLY FALL I WAS RUNNING TWO TRAIL CAMERA'S I WOULD MOVE THEM EVERY 2 WEEKS,I HAD THEM IN AT LEAST 5 LOCATIONS AND I DIDN'T GET ONE BUCK OF ANY AGE ON CAMERA.I GOT DOE'S CONSISTENTLY GOT 4 BEARS BUT NOT ONE BUCK.IN ALL OF THE ARCHERY SEASON AND THE RIFLE SEASON AND MUZZLELOADER SEASON I SAW A TOTAL OF 4 BUCKS.2 1.5 YEAR OLDS AND 2 2.5 YEAR OLDS.
THE YEAR BEFORE I SAW 8 OR 9 2.5 YEAR OLDS.I THOUGHT I WOULD BE ROLLING IN 3.5 YEAR OLDS THIS PAST SEASON.NOT THE CASE,NOT HELPED BY THE UNUSUALLY WARM ARCHERY SEASON BUT STILL SHOULDN'T HAVE BEEN AS POOR AS IT WAS.
08-12-2008, 10:56 AM
#26
Dominant Buck
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location:
Posts: 21,043
RE: Part of the solution.....or part of the problem?
Is it possible to segregate your buck hunting from your doe culling?
Maybe invite a trustworthy friend with a rifle to shoot does exclusively from a rifle set-up stand.
Get a feeder and kill does there.
You're assigning some statistical signicance to sighting differences thatare probably a result of other factors (you mentioned elusiveness, other 'hunters' etc).
My plan is to continue killing does at periphal stands, hunt the biguns at my prime spots around Halloween and hope the dog hunters don't spoil the last three years' work.
See....I REALLY, truly believe that the bucks I've shot in the last two years don't frequent the grounds I've been hunting until nearing the rut. I think they have other places they hang out, until then. So.....I'll likely hunt those spots for a couple weeks (until Oct. 1) and then stay clear until late Oct.Thats the plan.
08-12-2008, 10:58 AM
#27
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Wright, WY
Posts: 1,281
RE: Part of the solution.....or part of the problem?
I usually shoot about two to three does per year and 1 buck. I would consider myself more of an opportunist for the most part. The last couple of years I have tried holding out for something bigger buckwise and I am increasing that each year doing this. However I do not really care if I don't get a monster buck. If a average deer comes within range and presents a great shot opportunity than I usually take it and be thankful for the chance that I have to do this every year.
08-12-2008, 11:07 AM
#28
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Heaven is my home, temporarily residing in WNY :)
Posts: 6,679
RE: Part of the solution.....or part of the problem?
I shoot what I can ....2-4 deer per year ... looking to fill the freezer .... If everyone around me said, "Hey, let's not shoot anything under an 8, I would say ... ok .... but they don't ... if they change the AR in NY, I will not complain, nor will I advocate for it ... I will justgo out and still try and take my 2-4 deer per year ... to fill the freezer ... I will hunt within the limits that the DEC has set forth no matter if they ony let me take one per year, and enjoy myself ...... it's deer hunting ... it's not helping someone with their eternity ....
If stressing over the herd makes any of you guys happy, then stress away .. I'm gonna have fun, and I will fight for your right to be happy in your pursuit in whatever way you please .....
If stressing over the herd makes any of you guys happy, then stress away .. I'm gonna have fun, and I will fight for your right to be happy in your pursuit in whatever way you please .....
08-12-2008, 11:25 AM
#29
Dominant Buck
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location:
Posts: 21,043
RE: Part of the solution.....or part of the problem?
So to ask a direct question, PT......
If you KNEW the herd where you hunt was heavily doe-laden......would you still fill (given the opportunity) your two buck tags......and forego the culling of does (assuming you had multiple doe tags)? I'm asking this.....because there ARE people who KNOW the herd dynamics in the specific area they are hunting doesn't "jive" with the amount/disparity of tags issued.
Those who subscribe to this way of thinking are (IMO) "part of the problem".
If you KNEW the herd where you hunt was heavily doe-laden......would you still fill (given the opportunity) your two buck tags......and forego the culling of does (assuming you had multiple doe tags)? I'm asking this.....because there ARE people who KNOW the herd dynamics in the specific area they are hunting doesn't "jive" with the amount/disparity of tags issued.
Those who subscribe to this way of thinking are (IMO) "part of the problem".
08-12-2008, 11:41 AM
#30
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Heaven is my home, temporarily residing in WNY :)
Posts: 6,679
RE: Part of the solution.....or part of the problem?
ORIGINAL: GMMAT
So to ask a direct question, PT......
If you KNEW the herd where you hunt was heavily doe-laden......would you still fill (given the opportunity) your two buck tags......and forego the culling of does (assuming you had multiple doe tags)? I'm asking this.....because there ARE people who KNOW the herd dynamics in the specific area they are hunting doesn't "jive" with the amount/disparity of tags issued.
Those who subscribe to this way of thinking are (IMO) "part of the problem".
So to ask a direct question, PT......
If you KNEW the herd where you hunt was heavily doe-laden......would you still fill (given the opportunity) your two buck tags......and forego the culling of does (assuming you had multiple doe tags)? I'm asking this.....because there ARE people who KNOW the herd dynamics in the specific area they are hunting doesn't "jive" with the amount/disparity of tags issued.
Those who subscribe to this way of thinking are (IMO) "part of the problem".
did I answer your question, Jeff?