Lets Stop "A Slow Hit Is Better Than A Fast Miss"
07-02-2008 | 04:27 PM
#41
Nontypical Buck
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 4,420
Likes: 0
From: Where the ducks don't come no more
RE: Lets Stop "A Slow Hit Is Better Than A Fast Miss"
ORIGINAL: GMMAT
Not in IBO
The problem with turning pro is there are speed restrictions.
Not entirely. There is no speed limit if you are shooting at 5 grains per pound. However, you may shoot under 5 grains per pound so long as your arrows speed does not exceed 280fps with 3% variance. So in this case Fran would be toast with his 5.5 gpi arrows. Largely it doesn't ever matter except in sanctioned events... most of the club shoots have their own set of rules and equipment violations (be them honest or otherwise) are RAMPANT. But the point is to have fun, so long as you do... mission accomplished!
07-02-2008 | 04:31 PM
#42
Giant Nontypical
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,598
Likes: 0
From: Kansas
RE: Lets Stop "A Slow Hit Is Better Than A Fast Miss"
ORIGINAL: JoeRE
So in your opinion...how short is 369 fps?
ORIGINAL: MOTOWNHONKEY
I thought people who shoot fast bows were just trying to make up for a short we-we.
I thought people who shoot fast bows were just trying to make up for a short we-we.
E D B D
07-02-2008 | 04:54 PM
#43
Giant Nontypical
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 9,175
Likes: 0
RE: Lets Stop "A Slow Hit Is Better Than A Fast Miss"
In the field, there can be any number of reasons why someone would be estimating distance. For instance, if you pull back your bow when a deer goes behind a bush, and you are looking through the peep when he comes where you didn’t expect him and he walking towards you several steps before turning and giving you a good, broadside shot, you might need to estimate. In situations such as this, arrow speed can reduce the effect of a bad estimate, so I would think a faster arrow would be a good thing, other things being equal.
I've seen wound/loss estimates by state wildlife agencies showing anywhere from 35-80% for bowhunters. Those like you who have bought into this fast arrow garbage are, I think, one of the major contributers to that problem. People flap their gums about how traditional shooters fare in 3D shoots. Odd that traditional bowhunters have a wound/loss rate less than 10%. Why? Because they freakin' get close, know their limitations and don't fling Hail Mary shots!
Call it arrogance. Call it impoliteness. Call it whatever you want when someone points out the BS reasoning behind that 'fast arrow making yardage estimates less important' drivel. It's the truth and if you don't like it, you're part of the problem.
Keep the yardage estimating to the 3D course where it belongs. It has no place in the woods.
07-02-2008 | 04:59 PM
#44
Nontypical Buck
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 2,072
Likes: 0
From: Idaho
RE: Lets Stop "A Slow Hit Is Better Than A Fast Miss"
Hereis some good reading from huntersfriend.com
Forgiveness Ratings Computation
The forgiveness ratings listed on our comparison charts are NOT part of the manufacturer's specs. This is an Ease-of-Shooting index that we have created, based upon the bow's listed specs, in an attempt to help buyers predict how subdued or unruly a particular bow design might be to shoot. Our forgiveness rating is NOT a subjective score. But rather we have written a simple formula based on the following premises: 1) Bows with larger brace heights will generally be more forgiving (to flaws in shooting technique) than bows with shorter brace heights. 2) Bows with longer axle-to-axle lengths will be more stable and have greater shootability than bows with short axle-lengths. 3) Bows with mild to moderate cams will be more forgiving, as the shooter generally benefits from a more generous valley and smoother drawstroke.
COMPUTATION: Our rating was originally designed on a 100 point scale, but several designs the last few years have broken our ceiling (100+). For our rating......Brace height is the biggest consideration - followed by axle-to-axle length - and finally IBO speed (minor consideration). The math is fairly simple Forgiveness= (1.5a + 7.8b) - (s/10) where a=Axle Length, b=Brace Height, and s=IBO Speed. Larger brace heights, longer axle-to-axle lengths, and moderate IBO speed bows score higher. For 2005, scores range from 64 to 112, with 64 being the least-forgiving design. Bows without a legitimate IBO Speed (youth bows, short-draw bows, bows not capable of 70# peak weight, etc.) are not rated.
PARALLEL LIMB BONUS POINTS NEW: As parallel limb bows have become more and more popular, we often hear the argument that parallel limb bows are somewhat more forgiving. First, because they tend to be heavier and more stable at full draw. But also because they tend to have much less forward limb thrust, noise, and recoil, so shooters tend to settle into a more relaxed shot sequence with less anticipation of a violent release. While most experts aren't convinced this is true (at least not yet), we think there is some merit to the argument. As such, for 2007 we have amended our formula and have awarded true parallel limb bows with 3 forgiveness bonus points.
Admittedly, the formula isn't perfect, but it yields a fair estimate. It is our hope that the forgiveness ratings can help toprovide an objective reference for buyers who are concerned about forgiveness and shootability. We certainly appreciate the debates, the emails, and the countless suggestions we get for tweaking our formula. However, we suspect that further complicating the formula may not necessarily yield better results. Fact is, the term "forgiving" really means "forgiving to human errors", which is something that isn't easily quantified mathematically. If we were to test a variety of properly-functioning bows in a mechanical shooting machine, the varying axle-to-axle lengths, brace heights, and cam characteristics would have no significant effect on the accuracy and repeatability of the bows. The shooting machine would shoot each bow exactly the same, each and every time.
Unfortunately, humans cannot shoot with such mechanical consistency. We bobble; we flinch. We punch our triggers, or torque our grips. Even for the world's most talented shooters, accuracy is limited to the occurrence of human error. And what makes a particular bow more of less "forgiving" is the bow's tendency to accentuate or attenuate these unavoidable human errors.
Of course, we should keep the "forgiveness" issue in some perspective. Good technique and a solid practice regimen are critical to success in the field, regardless of which bow you ultimately choose. But the less forgiving your bow is, the more exacting your technique will need to be. But don't make more of this issue than need be. Within a typical 30 yard bowhunting range, virtually any properly-tuned compound bow can be shot with acceptable accuracy. And with a little practice, even a novice shooter can easily bring down big game within this range. So if you hunt in dense woods where 20 and 30 yards shots are common, your bow's "forgiveness" just isn't such a critical consideration. But if you hunt in more open country, where you must be able to reach out to 50, 60, even 70+ yards, where the smallest glitch means a wound or a miss, you should be more selective with the bow design you choose. We hope our forgiveness ratings are helpful to you in selecting a new bow.
Forgiveness Ratings Computation
The forgiveness ratings listed on our comparison charts are NOT part of the manufacturer's specs. This is an Ease-of-Shooting index that we have created, based upon the bow's listed specs, in an attempt to help buyers predict how subdued or unruly a particular bow design might be to shoot. Our forgiveness rating is NOT a subjective score. But rather we have written a simple formula based on the following premises: 1) Bows with larger brace heights will generally be more forgiving (to flaws in shooting technique) than bows with shorter brace heights. 2) Bows with longer axle-to-axle lengths will be more stable and have greater shootability than bows with short axle-lengths. 3) Bows with mild to moderate cams will be more forgiving, as the shooter generally benefits from a more generous valley and smoother drawstroke.
COMPUTATION: Our rating was originally designed on a 100 point scale, but several designs the last few years have broken our ceiling (100+). For our rating......Brace height is the biggest consideration - followed by axle-to-axle length - and finally IBO speed (minor consideration). The math is fairly simple Forgiveness= (1.5a + 7.8b) - (s/10) where a=Axle Length, b=Brace Height, and s=IBO Speed. Larger brace heights, longer axle-to-axle lengths, and moderate IBO speed bows score higher. For 2005, scores range from 64 to 112, with 64 being the least-forgiving design. Bows without a legitimate IBO Speed (youth bows, short-draw bows, bows not capable of 70# peak weight, etc.) are not rated.
PARALLEL LIMB BONUS POINTS NEW: As parallel limb bows have become more and more popular, we often hear the argument that parallel limb bows are somewhat more forgiving. First, because they tend to be heavier and more stable at full draw. But also because they tend to have much less forward limb thrust, noise, and recoil, so shooters tend to settle into a more relaxed shot sequence with less anticipation of a violent release. While most experts aren't convinced this is true (at least not yet), we think there is some merit to the argument. As such, for 2007 we have amended our formula and have awarded true parallel limb bows with 3 forgiveness bonus points.
Admittedly, the formula isn't perfect, but it yields a fair estimate. It is our hope that the forgiveness ratings can help toprovide an objective reference for buyers who are concerned about forgiveness and shootability. We certainly appreciate the debates, the emails, and the countless suggestions we get for tweaking our formula. However, we suspect that further complicating the formula may not necessarily yield better results. Fact is, the term "forgiving" really means "forgiving to human errors", which is something that isn't easily quantified mathematically. If we were to test a variety of properly-functioning bows in a mechanical shooting machine, the varying axle-to-axle lengths, brace heights, and cam characteristics would have no significant effect on the accuracy and repeatability of the bows. The shooting machine would shoot each bow exactly the same, each and every time.
Unfortunately, humans cannot shoot with such mechanical consistency. We bobble; we flinch. We punch our triggers, or torque our grips. Even for the world's most talented shooters, accuracy is limited to the occurrence of human error. And what makes a particular bow more of less "forgiving" is the bow's tendency to accentuate or attenuate these unavoidable human errors.
Of course, we should keep the "forgiveness" issue in some perspective. Good technique and a solid practice regimen are critical to success in the field, regardless of which bow you ultimately choose. But the less forgiving your bow is, the more exacting your technique will need to be. But don't make more of this issue than need be. Within a typical 30 yard bowhunting range, virtually any properly-tuned compound bow can be shot with acceptable accuracy. And with a little practice, even a novice shooter can easily bring down big game within this range. So if you hunt in dense woods where 20 and 30 yards shots are common, your bow's "forgiveness" just isn't such a critical consideration. But if you hunt in more open country, where you must be able to reach out to 50, 60, even 70+ yards, where the smallest glitch means a wound or a miss, you should be more selective with the bow design you choose. We hope our forgiveness ratings are helpful to you in selecting a new bow.
07-02-2008 | 06:48 PM
#45
Giant Nontypical
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 7,367
Likes: 0
From:
RE: Lets Stop "A Slow Hit Is Better Than A Fast Miss"
ORIGINAL: im ocd
I hate that saying, "A slow hit is better than a fast miss". [:@]
I hate that saying, "A slow hit is better than a fast miss". [:@]
That said my 28" draw 60# Airborne 82 is very fast and shoots with a lot of Authority packing over 72# KE.
It is very accurate as well.
Accurate! Quiet!! & Fast!!! What else can you ask for?
Dan
07-02-2008 | 09:19 PM
#46
Giant Nontypical
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 6,634
Likes: 0
From: HENDERSON KY USA
RE: Lets Stop "A Slow Hit Is Better Than A Fast Miss"
ORIGINAL: silentassassin
Arthur,
To me that just proves that you were the best shooter out there that day. I am sure you would have beat them with a speed bow if that's what you had been shooting. Speed and accuracy aren't mutually exclusive and shouldn't be classified as such. A good shooter is going to shoot a fast bow well and a slow bow well. The fast bows today are alot more forgiving than they use to be. I shoot a fast bow but I shoot apretty heavy arrow with so I am only shooting in the high 270's. But there are that shoot super fast rigs that can shoot circles around me and guys that shoot slow rigs that can shoot circles around me. At the end of the day it's alot about the jerk behind the string. It's not a good idea for most new shooters to start with a speed bow because they tend to be more difficult to shoot. Of course I have seen some newbies start out with excellent natural form that are the exception to the rule. But, the saying in question as no validity becuase it imples that fast bows aren't accurate. Sure a slow hit is better than a fast miss but a fast hit is better than a slow miss. Either way missing sucks and either way it is attributable to the shooter, not the bow.
Arthur,
To me that just proves that you were the best shooter out there that day. I am sure you would have beat them with a speed bow if that's what you had been shooting. Speed and accuracy aren't mutually exclusive and shouldn't be classified as such. A good shooter is going to shoot a fast bow well and a slow bow well. The fast bows today are alot more forgiving than they use to be. I shoot a fast bow but I shoot apretty heavy arrow with so I am only shooting in the high 270's. But there are that shoot super fast rigs that can shoot circles around me and guys that shoot slow rigs that can shoot circles around me. At the end of the day it's alot about the jerk behind the string. It's not a good idea for most new shooters to start with a speed bow because they tend to be more difficult to shoot. Of course I have seen some newbies start out with excellent natural form that are the exception to the rule. But, the saying in question as no validity becuase it imples that fast bows aren't accurate. Sure a slow hit is better than a fast miss but a fast hit is better than a slow miss. Either way missing sucks and either way it is attributable to the shooter, not the bow.
