RE: What is most important---Skill, Luck, or Land??
 

Todd,

I am not stating this to brag but I have succesfully and consistantly killed good bucks that often don' t ever leave there beds during light, period!!!. Its not at all impossible, its just a different system than most are used to. Take a look at my signature quote, its there for a reason.

I do agree that having super private land can make things easy, but for most that is impossible, so all that is left is to reley on luck or work much harder. Thats why knowledge, dedication and work is the best bet to increase success for most bowhunters.

RE: What is most important---Skill, Luck, or Land??
 

I vote Land!

RE: What is most important---Skill, Luck, or Land??
 

Very interesting points from every body. I have a piece of private land in La Grange Tx that used to be a sweet spot for deer. That is before all the ranches around it High fenced their property. Thier are still deer that use my land as a travel corridor, but the pickings are slim. let me just say that hunting that 40 acres would be the ultimate test of skill over luck...

RE: What is most important---Skill, Luck, or Land??
 

I would rather be a good hunter in " fair" territory than a lucky hunter in " good" hunting spots. I' ve known and hunted with some " lucky" (unskilled) hunters, in excellent spots, who couldn' t find a deer until they heard me shoot and saw the dead animal in my truck. Skilled hunters, who know their spots,(beds, feed, trails, funnels, wind direction) are gonna take deer, sooner or later, nomatter how many are or aren' t on that property. A good woodsman will find the deer. I see it this way: Deer have to move, they have to eat, drink and bed. Knowing and learning where to hunt isn' t a crapshoot. If you can learn more every time you hunt, they you' re gaining the skills to eliminate luck. Luck runs out sooner or later.................. but you always got the skill.

RE: What is most important---Skill, Luck, or Land??
 

CBM SC , I see your point. Yes land and deer management do require skills. A lot of people who have good deer land have put a lot of hard work into making it what it is. But, my point is, " you can' t manage what you don' t own." I am very fortunate to have been born to a family with good land to manage and hunt. Many aren' t so lucky. Thats why I think you have to grade on a curve so to speak. If you only get to hunt public land and yet you still kill deer each year, then I find that far more impressive than someone who kills monster bucks on a secluded private whitetail haven. However despite how I rate the level of accomplishment involved there is no doubt that the guy hunting the haven is going to kill more and better bucks year in and year out. Thus my opinion that land makes the bigger difference. Like I said before I know young relatively inexperienced kids that kill big bucks every year simply because of " where" they get to hunt.

Rack Attack-- I' m not doubting your word but I would like to know the type of land you hunt. Stalk hunting with a bow is certainly possible in the right situation but my comment was directed to here in Alabama where I hunt. There are briar thickets here that are almost impenetrable and a big buck bedded in the middle of it is as safe as a babe in its mommas arms. Virtually impossible to approach him silently and even if by some miracle you could it would be equally miraculous if you had a clean shooting lane even at 20 yards. With a gun its a different story but with a bow very very difficult. Thats a nice buck under your signature line by the way. Here is one of mine from last season although it is a gun kill.

RE: What is most important---Skill, Luck, or Land??
 

I agree with many that land is very important!

I feel that the ability to learn and adapt is equally important.

I am lucky enough to hunt an area in the midwest every year with high deer density, and huge bucks with a big group of friends.

The guys who score on a regular basis at home, do the same thing in the midwest.

The guys who rarely ever connect on decent bucks at home....same deal in the midwest!

I guess I am saying that land is extremely important, and so is knowledge.

As far as luck goes.....I`ll make my own luck.

RE: What is most important---Skill, Luck, or Land??
 

I used tohunt private property as the only person who had permision to be there. It was pick and choose. Now I' m on public land, and my freezer is empty. I was lucky to be allowed to hunt such good land. my skills suffered in those 5 years as I got lazy.

RE: What is most important---Skill, Luck, or Land??
 

No, atlasman. I said it INCLUDES scouting land blah blah blah. Land does not dictate sucess, but plays a major part. Bowhunting skills require work and are probably just as important, but scouting land also requires work. And to do it well also requires some skill. So they kind of tie together.

RE: What is most important---Skill, Luck, or Land??
 

Lucky enough to have land to hunt on.
Lucky enough to aquire the skill to shoot well.
Lucky enough to get lucky!:)

RE: What is most important---Skill, Luck, or Land??
 

Lets put this into context. I know " do it yourselfers" that are good hunters. These guys hunt the same way here that they do when they are in Illinois. They spend 40-60 days in the woods here and 5-10 in the woods in Illinois. They kill good deer more often than not in Illinois but rarely if ever kill them around here. Same hunters same techniques different land. They scout the land themselves, place all of their own stands, and do everything else by themselves. If that is not " TRUE SUCCESS" then I don' t know what is. Skill is definetly a big factor but you can' t kill big deer where they don' t live. If you don' t have the gene pool or population no matter how hard you hunt you won' t be as successful as you would be on good land. So again I say location, location, location! By all means is takes a lot of skill, and a little luck never hurt, but even those " lucky" guys that out work everyone else will be more successful on prime hunting ground. HMMMM maybe that' s why the Pro' s (obviously skilled hunters) choose to hunt Prime Hunting Ground rather than the piss poor places that I have no choice but hunt.

RE: What is most important---Skill, Luck, or Land??
 

Dacotah,

If equal work and equal skill are applied to different plots of land the results will not be the same........they will be dependent on the quality of the land hunted. If you can accomplish more on good land with less work then it is clear what is the variable that dictates your success level.

Even if you dedicate your whole year to working the state forest to find the biggest and best deer available there are a million things that could completely change when the sun comes up on opening day.........most of which you have zero control over. When the sun comes up on a nice private farm on opeing day it is no different then any other day of the year......except for the bruiser that will be in your freezer by nightfall :)

My brother did not magically obtain the skills of Fred Bear in his sleep the night before going to his buddies farm......a place he had NEVER even seen mind you until he climbed a tree and sat down that day. Yet he still came home with a beautiful 8 pointer and saw more deer in that day then he has in the last 8 years combined. He was so excited to see so many deer that he would have taken a smaller 4 point but it didn' t get in range......the 8 did 2 hours later.

My father has enough antlers to fill a truck. He is as deadly a shot as I have ever seen. He is calm and deadly as a sniper with his Wingmaster. None of his racks are anything to get excited over. He has a couple 8' s and a 10 but they are all skinny goofy looking poor genetics racks from the woods we hunt. I can pick a rack from my woods out a mile away........dorky looking, palmated(sp?) skinny antlers that no trophy hunter would even look twice at. In our woods though they are what is available and that is just the way it is. I have seen my dad have success when no one for a mile even saw a deer. He hasn' t shot at a doe for years unless we tell him to and yet he still bags a buck year after year. He has all the skill you will ever need to bag quality deer and yet he has no real whoppers on the wall............because he has been handicapped by the land we hunt for a long time now. If he was on a private, sweet little honey of a spot where seeing deer is not the goal.......seeing trophies is........he would have more mounts then walls to hang them on. I know I am talking gun hunting but that is all my dad does and it doesn' t change the point I am making. You can' t kill what isn' t there. If your goal is meat or racks it doesn' t matter........the fewer the deer the fewer your chances for success.

Put any average hunter in a prime plot of land crawling with deer and nice bucks and he will look like a great and successful hunter.

Put a great hunter in the state forest loaded with morons and city hunters and chances are he will be thankful to even have some meat in the freezer when the smoke clears........if he sticks around long enough ;)

RE: What is most important---Skill, Luck, or Land??
 

Atlas,
Very well said.

RE: What is most important---Skill, Luck, or Land??
 

Atlasman , SA,& others , You guys made me think about this hard ! And I think in normal hunting situations I' ll take skill and apply it to the area I hunt. I guess it' s nice to dream about that good land ,but how many are going to get to really enjoy that. Atlasman don' t you think there are people on this forum that are going to wish they could come hunt with your dad. Do you think they will agree that your land is terrible(?) But weighing what you guys have thrown out there ......I agree all factors being equal , that a blind squirrel is probably not going to starve to death living in an Oak forest . But also Atlasman, Have you looked at all of your public land ? Are there areas that are too remote for most to walk to? Are there big enough creeks that you could canoe back to those areas? Are there rivers that you could get to remote areas out of a boat?Could you take a little duck decoy boat and wade back into any swamps with waders on and your gear loaded up? Do you ever hunt your area during the week while most people are working and there' s less activity? Is there anything your missing on the land you hunt ? I mean that in a helpful way , not a critical way !! Because I have taken many bucks off public land with the above tactics (even a P&Y) ! Most people say the land I hunt is over hunted and almost useless= bad land . Do you think I feel that way ? I took 3 bucks off of it this year with a bow in 5 trips !!

RE: What is most important---Skill, Luck, or Land??
 

Todd, real nive deer yourself:D

I hunt, oak hardwoods, pine barrens, with thick (real thick) scrub oak bedding areas. We do have briar thickets, and I know that they are some of the toughest stuff to get through. I never still hunt these areas ,can' t even walk through them. But if I can find some good trails and a good tree, I will spend all winter with a pair of clippers in my hand to give myself an entrance/exit route. I will get in at dark and stay all day, right smack in the middle of their beds. During the rut those bucks move around quite a bit in their " safe Zone" . And because these are such high impact setups, you need many of them, they are often one or twice a year stands. Thats why its such hard work, It can take years to set up many different bedding areas, and the old ones always need trimming out. This has to be done in the winter/spring as this sort of pressure on a deer close to the season is suicide.
Don' t get me wrong, I am not telling you how to hunt, I have never hunted Alabama, and I am sure you know those woods alot better than I do.

I just never like to use the word " Never" when it comes to hunting bucks.:D

RE: What is most important---Skill, Luck, or Land??
 

(Rack Attack) Hmmm, clearing trails into the bedding areas. Thats an interesting thought. Wonder why it never occured to me. I not so prideful I can' t admit to learning a new lesson from time to time even from one of you New York city fellers. Ha! I would be worried however about how the bucks would respond to an intrusion into their core area like this. From a disturbance stand point it would be best if these lanes could be cleared in the off season but I realize that it would grow back unless you wait till the growing season is over. Still a good tip that I will give serious consideration too.

(Atlasman) Well said, I think that pretty much sums up just about everthing I was trying to say about this debate as well. You bring up another good point at least as it pertains to bucks and thats genetics. You can pass on all the small bucks you want but if its not in their genes to be a trophy then they never will be. Some areas just have excellent genes for trophy racks. The deer on our land have very distinct genetic traits as well. The picture I posted is very indicative of a typical trophy buck on our land. Tall horns, pretty good mass, average width, very short brow tines, and if you' ll notice only a 7 point. And its rare to see a buck with more than 8 points on our land. Its just not in the genes of the deer on our land to have multiple point racks despite the fact that we put out feed in the off season and plant plenty of plots year round.

RE: What is most important---Skill, Luck, or Land??
 

This is a typical rack from our woods. Goofy, odd length points and frequently webbed. Could be any number of points....can count on one hand the racks over 8 points taken in those woods in the last 10 years. This is a respectable harvest(rack wise) in the land I get to hunt if you can imagine that.





I think some people may be confusing the theme of what is being said here. No one that I can see is saying that it is impossible to have success on public/state/subpar land. Of course we can have success. I would not hunt these woods if we didn' t get deer. My father and my brothers and I put some nice meat in the freezer each year but we work pretty damn hard for it. You can have success anywhere..........that is not what is being said by the people voting for land over skill. What we (at least I) am saying is that you can stroll onto a sweet plot of land.......hang a stand and see plenty of nice deer and take quality deer after deer with nothing more then average skills........because of the bounty of that land. That same hunter with his average skill stands a very good chance of having to buy meat at the store to put in the freezer if he is forced to hunt the state forest instead with all it' s additional variables and challenges.


A hunter can only be great if he has game available to hunt.

Put a average hunter on prime land and he will see a dramatic increase in his level of success with no added effort. Put a skilled hunter on subpar land and he will see his success drop even with 10 times the effort put in.

RE: What is most important---Skill, Luck, or Land??
 

Atlasman,
I believe that the land you have available to hunt is very important....but, I still believe skill is more important. Obviously, if there are no P&Y class bucks using the land you hunt, you will not be able to kill them. In your example, place the different skilled hunters on the same piece of property and see which hunter enjoys more success. I feel like the better skilled hunter will win out.

RE: What is most important---Skill, Luck, or Land??
 

I see your point , but what if someone who thinks they' re a great hunter is hunting that sweet spot of land you are talking about unsuccessfully and blames it on the land , what do you say ???
Has the land dictated their success or their skill level?
Don' t tell me this wouldn' t happen ' cause I can go on and on about how it does every year ,everywhere I hunt ! Happens to some of the most prideful hunters I know and when you prove them wrong guess what comes out of there mouth " Luck" !!

RE: What is most important---Skill, Luck, or Land??
 

What is most important---Skill, Luck, or Land??


Yep

RE: What is most important---Skill, Luck, or Land??
 

I would say land. Then again it sometimes takes a little luck to get a good land to hunt. I think there is always some degree of luck involved in some way but you have to have land before the other two come into play. If your sitting home with no where to hunt it doesn' t really matter how skilled or lucky you are.

RE: What is most important---Skill, Luck, or Land??
 

I agree 100%. Barring the occasional blind ****house luck the skilled hunter will be more successful on the same land.

I doubt many people would question that fact. However if both guys are on crappy land neither one will have much success......the skilled guy will have little if any and the clown will have none. Put them both on a great field to hunt and the skilled guy will get in P+Y and the clown will have to " settle" for 8' s and 10' s that look like basketball hoops.

They will both do very well or very bad depending on what land they are on. The skilled guy will just do a little better in each place.

RE: What is most important---Skill, Luck, or Land??
 

I would think this is the exception rather then the rule. Are there dorks out there with great land that can' t hunt worth crap??? Of course. I really would be shocked if someone could hunt a sweet plot of land and come up empty handed year after year though. Geez all you have to do is put on some camo and sit still and quiet and you will have all the chances you need. All you have to be is a good shot.

Speaking from 16 years experience in my woods and knowing everybody who hunts those 1,500 acres regularly I can say without hesitation that I know the deer herd there pretty well. My dad and my brothers and I get deer there every year because we know where they are and where they will go when the lead starts to fly. For archery we know the paths they take to and from the food and beds. We have seen a few nice racks come out. When it happens it is a rare occasion and everyone knows about it. Could I know my woods better?? I think you always can.............Do I know it well enough to grade the land and the bounty of it' s herd?? No doubt.


Please, I hope no one that reads any of this takes it as me trying to minimize the skill or effort of those fortunate enough to hunt sweet land. The deer don' t just run up and jump on your arrows or nibble on your gun barrel. You still have to be a solid woodsman no matter where you are. Some places just offer more chances for your skills to shine that' s all.

RE: What is most important---Skill, Luck, or Land??
 

Very good point Mykey

It does take more then a little luck to find yourself on a sweet hunter' s paradise doesn' t it.

Hmmmmmmmmmmm [8D]

RE: What is most important---Skill, Luck, or Land??
 

Atlasman, I' m about to quit,but aren' t you saying skill is more important than land in the success of the harvest ,cause it sure looks like your skilled hunter is doing better both places (?)


Todd1700 , I know how hard Alabama public land is ,that' s where I do most of my hunting when I can ,probably about an hour and a half from you. BTW I meant to tell you nice deer !

RE: What is most important---Skill, Luck, or Land??
 

No I am not.........and what are you ready to quit??? I am not trying to prove you wrong man................I am just giving reasons why I voted for land.


If 2 guys hunt crapville USA and the average hunter gets skunked while the skilled hunter bags a spike buck after 2 straight years of hard work and long hours on stand........I wouldn' t call either one of them a shining success. Spending an entire season and being able to count how many deer you saw on one hand and never even coming close to a shot attempt is not a successful year.........even if someone else had a worse year then you.

Put both those guys in a well populated sweet spot and they will both enjoy much more success. The skilled hunter may get a more impressive deer.......he may not. Either way you will have a tough time convincing either one of them that they did not reap more success on the better land because they will both point to the mounts on their walls and the freezer full of meat as proof. The skilled hunter may get bragging rights with a better rack but that hardly makes the average hunter a failure with a solid 8-10 trophy and a freezer full of backstraps. This was all acomplished with less effort then they put into Crapville USA to get a spike between 2 guys over 2 seasons.

All the skill in the world will get you no deer if your land doesn' t provide them. Average to below average skill will get you deer year after year if you are fortunate enough to hunt bountiful land.

RE: What is most important---Skill, Luck, or Land??
 

Given the choice between improving your skills or being able to hunt better land with a larger healthier deer herd I doubt many members here would not choose the land.......unless they already are on a sweet spot of their own.


I know I wouldn' t. I have experienced it both ways. I have been on subpar land most of my life and been forced to make the best of it.......and I have. I would call the number of deer taken by the men of my family off those hills pretty damn impressive considering what we have to work with. We don' t pretend it is something it is not and we usually don' t miss ;)....usually :eek: I have also been fortunate enough to hunt some sweet, lush fields and farms. The difference is almost laughable. I have taken some of the guys that let me hunt their land out to the state forest with me and more then one has told me that if they had to hunt like that they would quit. I have seen more deer and bucks in the very short amount of time I have spent hunting these lush grounds then I have in all my years of state land combined. More deer=More chances it' s that simple IMO.

When you see a deer on state land you better bag it........PERIOD. If you miss or let it walk you may as well go home. You will not have chance after chance and you will not see bigger and bigger deer by letting the first one walk. You have to take advantage of EVERY chance you get........because you never know how many hours, days or weeks will go by before your next one.............the deer just aren' t plentiful enough and/or the hunting pressure is overwhelmingly stacking the odds against you. On state land you have to compete with other hunters as much if not more then the deer. On a private hot spot you have to wait for a clean shot so you don' t accidentally wound another one with a passthrough [:o] or just take 2 at a time like that high KE thread suggests ;)


CBM.........I really thought we were just throwing out stories and logic here.......not competing to see who was right or wrong. Just passing the winter months..........no harm intended bro.

RE: What is most important---Skill, Luck, or Land??
 

CBM SC----What type of public land are you hunting in Alabama? I may be able to direct you to a few places that don' t get quite the hunting pressure that a lot places do. I know some places that, if a little walking doesn' t scare you, can offer a good chance to kill a deer with a bow. A small wheeled game carrier is a must at a lot of these places however. Post Back or shoot me a private message if you are interested.

RE: What is most important---Skill, Luck, or Land??
 

I think you make some very valid points atlasman. Although we disagree, I think our opinions are really closer than what might appear by our posts. I think the only way to measure a hunters success is by defining the meaning of success. In some areas success could mean P&Y bucks, other areas it could mean about any buck and some it could mean getting a shot at a deer period.

Another variable here is the differences of state/government land from area to area. When you stated that is what you hunted I assumed your state land was like some of the state land we have available to us in VA. We are fortunate enough to have 2 National Forests that have over 1.60 million acres all available for the outdoorsman. Now these forests appear to be crowded but you do not have to get far off old roads and trails to leave all but the dedicated hunters behind.

RE: What is most important---Skill, Luck, or Land??
 

I' m in agreement with VAhunter. And don' t take me wrong ,I' m not mad or anything I just feel like we have hit a wall as to what we think success is !

If the real question is about landing P &Y or better class deer than that might be a new thread?

And I love this.....ever since I have moved up here I have no one to shoot with or talk to about bowhunting . Todd thanks for the offer , but I have more than I can even get to now that I' m up here in SC. And you must not have read my posts, walking[8D] I usually take a jon boat in freezing weather for about 30 minutes,before daylight, and walk in about 500 yards, get one and drag it out about 500-600 yards. I may need to check into a cart ?:DThe 210 # one about killed me !

RE: What is most important---Skill, Luck, or Land??
 

" what is more Important" ? No question would have to be the respect, for Your Game. Skill,Land,ability, or luck are things that you can fix. But The respect for any Animal you Hunt for is The Most Important in my book. For not having any respect then you are nothing more then someone how just kills Animals. I give thanks for every Animal I harvest. Hell look at the Deer. You move in the there homes and they still seem to grow, more so then any other Game around. So to me the most Important thing is the ANIMAL I Hunt.

RE: What is most important---Skill, Luck, or Land??
 

Ummmmmmmmmm..........OK???


I doubt anyone here would dispute the amount of respect that should be given to the animals we hunt.

The question here was about which of the subjects listed had the most direct relation to your success as a hunter.

You can have all the respect in the world for deer and it won' t put any backstraps on the grill.


Maybe you misunderstood the thread

RE: What is most important---Skill, Luck, or Land??
 

I' ll second that !

RE: What is most important---Skill, Luck, or Land??
 

Well it sounded real good in my head. What I mean is The Respect I have for my Game makes me hunt harder, because the only selfdefence Deer have is there Eyes,nose,and ears. We as Hunters all know this, Right? So we have to work harder to come out on Top. Skill, Luck and Land do paly a big role in this . But what we do in the way we respect the game is to play with there rules. I hope I didn' t come off wrong in what I was saying. But just out of these I would say Land. It you don' t have any hunting land you can' t hunt.