Can we make a difference?
 

Some are familiar with where I hunt and the herd pops here/carrying capacity issues they face (the deer).

We took 8 does and 2 bucks out of the herd, this year. Would I be wrong in assuming that there are now (for the '08) season........18 less mouths than there would have been (had we taken 0 out of the herd)? If so....that sounds like we're making progress. if we did this for 5 more years.......

CAN we make a difference? Is my assumption/"logic" flawed? How long might it take?

I'm not looking to get into the "buck" situation....and how this might affect the herd.....but more interested in herd "balance".

Any thoughts?

RE: Can we make a difference?
 

Most does produce twins while a yearling willusually only drop one fawn if she is bred. I would say you are about right in your assumption

RE: Can we make a difference?
 

The short answer is yes, you can make a difference....

The question is, how bad are you overpopulated? Do you have 200 too many deer? 50 too many? etc....

Each location is different... My only suggestion to you would be not to kill does to the point of making it hard to kill them..... It gets old quick when you have to hunt really hard to kill a doe....

And trust me, that can happen!

RE: Can we make a difference?
 

The thing I left out, Rick....is a herd's natural mortality rate.

I "think" the last No.s I heard cited were from PA....and they said it was +/-20%, annually. That sounded like a lot when I heard it. So....taking into consideration our milder climate (v. PA)...and factoring in the likelihood of more road kills here (based on our pops).....I'll use the figure of +/- 14 deer out of the herd.

That still sounds like a lot, to me.

RE: Can we make a difference?
 

Its how my place has always been. and yes it just gets old AND discouraging....

RE: Can we make a difference?
 

you will be making a difference, but its going to take time, based on the numbers of deer you see. wish there was a way to know how many deer truely live where you hunt. i know you see tons and good days, but no way of telling how many are the same deer. either way, you still have a good sized herd in a somewhat small area.

gotta think about the 20 does that are going to drop 1-3 fawns come spring...figure on 20 producing 35...thats 55 mouths to feed. just going from a fake number of 20 pregnant does.

see what i mean?? its just simply going to take time...but, if you keep taking alot more females than males, you will see things changing...im not saying NOT to take bucks...but in your situation, more females than males need to be taken.

id say your doing a good job pretty much single handedly. keep up the good work buddy...you might not see 100 deer a day in a few years, but you just might see bigger, healthier deer..less road kills and deer caught in fences etc etc....and the forest might thank you by helping the overbrowsing that comes from a large deer herd....

RE: Can we make a difference?
 

Dude I've never seen a 100 deer in a day watching the outdoor channel!:D

RE: Can we make a difference?
 

GMMAT,

How many enounters did you have with does in bow range this season?

In other words, how many does could you have killed if you took every available shot?

RE: Can we make a difference?
 

Do you have any idea of your goal for next season Jeff? I dont know how you and your bio. guy calculte that....

RE: Can we make a difference?
 

I can share with you what we have seen at Dan's place and at my place. His place has been under QDMA for 7 years now and mine has been under for 3 years, and the numbers in our journals don't lie.

In 2005, I hunted a total of approx 96 hours on stand at my place in PA. In that timeframe I saw (fawns removed from the numbers)eleven different 1.5+ y/o does, and three different1.5+ y/o bucks. We killed 3 does and no bucks on the property that year. I saw one animal that may have been 2.5 years old, the other bucks were 1.5.

In 2006, I hunted a total of approx 96 hours on stand at my place in PA. In that timefram I saw (fawns again removed from the numbers) seven different 1.5+ year does, and five different 1.5+ y/o bucks. We killed 3 does, and 1 buck on the property. 2 of the bucks were probably 2.5, the rest were 1.5. There was sign of others we did not see that were probably around and 3.5+.

In 2007, I hunted a total of approx 88 hours on stand at my place in PA. in that timeframe I saw (fawns removed from the numbers) seven different 1.5+ year old does, andeight different 1.5+ year old bucks. We killed 3 does and 1 buck on the property. 4 of the eight different bucks were 2.5 y/o deer @ 100" or better, and 2 of those 4 older deer were at least 3.5+. Previously we had only averaged maybe 1 deer per season sighted at 100" or better.

Who knows, maybe there are other conditions I am not including into these results but as I see it..........I'm making a difference. I'll continue to do what I'm doing as long as I have the $$$ and time. It's exhausting though considering it's a 4 hour drive each way and I can't keep all the trespassers out.......but for now I'll keep at it as best I can.

Edit** - Added a bit more info...........[8D].

RE: Can we make a difference?
 

DC.....early on....I took EVERY "ethical" shot I had at a female deer. As it got closer to the rut (and it became apparent I had a realistic chance of meeting my mgmt. goal).....I passed on does...."some".

I honestly don't know how many I "could" have killed. I'd be afraid to guess (for fear of what some would say). You know....it woudn't be that many more than we did take, though. So let's assume I killed every one I "could" have.

I keep a log....and could tell you how many doe sightings I had. But I also know that I see the same does over and over a lot.

RE: Can we make a difference?
 

Most does (2 1/2 + in age) have two fawns instead of one so.......

8 does x 2 fawns = 16 fawns + 8 does + 2 bucks =



26 mouths

I think you put a pretty good dent in them

RE: Can we make a difference?
 

Hey Matt....how do you distinguish does? I mean.....I know some of the doe groups....but I'm never "sure". I could NEVER tell you how many individual deer I see every year. Just isn't possible where I hunt.

It's cool you can do that.

RE: Can we make a difference?
 

yes i believe it does. Alot is going to depend on the size of ground your managing and how others around you manage Does. In your situation, i think you did the right thing for your area.

RE: Can we make a difference?
 

Jeff, you could transport a few here. I am trying to bring my #'s up.

I think we are both in similar situations looking from different vantage points. It is giong to take time and reduced #'s taken here to see a sizeable difference, whereas it will take time and continued big #'s taken to make a noticeable difference for you. At least it gives us something to think about;)

RE: Can we make a difference?
 

I can't distinguish between all of them, but 99% of them I can at least at my place in PA. Dan's place is different, his deer move around more and I don't put in as much time in the offseason to know and recognize the core family groups.

I've found that because of the bedding areas I've created from our logging project, and designated sanctuaries we leave alone, and the seperate food plots they feed in, they generally have a VERY small core area (the doe/fawn groups anyhow). This helps a lot to identify which ones are which. I alsowatch them all year long, and tend to get thousands (sometimes 10k+) pictures every year on the game cams and my father emails them to me every 2-3 days to keep tabs on what is showing up where. After the thousands of pics, and repeated sightings through the entire year when I'm there staying at the cabin and working on things and glassing, etc......you learn which family groups are which pretty easily.

Rob saw this when he came to my place, I told him before she showed up exactly what doe was going to show up, that she had a button buck and doe fawn with her, and exactly what she would look like. You get pretty familiar with them all I guess when your really improving the habitat and planting and then watching everything, they get much more predictable in patterns as well. I actually watched Rob's doe from this year give birth to her 2x fawns last spring from my cabin window. ;)

RE: Can we make a difference?
 

Huntingson.....

Do your herd AND mine a favor, this year. Come down here and shoot one or two....and leave yours, alone!;)

RE: Can we make a difference?
 

Jeff, I would be more than happy to help reduce your doe #'s. A time and directions is all I need:D

RE: Can we make a difference?
 

Don't burn yourself out there GMMAT, its suppose to be fun.;) You wouldn't think it would be possible but I'm willing to bet a guy could, its good that your inviting your buddy's in there and letting them give you a hand. Also kudos to you on what your doing, I think its the right thing if your numbers of deer are correct like you say they are, just don't go over board. Its going to make a huge difference in your buck hunting in the future too! You won't be in the woods all the time trying to manage your doe population, your scent and human presence will be way down, that could mean more bigger bucks will come around! Good luck!

RE: Can we make a difference?
 

I think you can make a difference, but from what you describe it would be very hard to do in your locale. When I first heard about your plan, I was not sure you (one person) would be able to make a significant impact because of a)hunting area size and b) total population you described. I based that judgement on what I have seen, namely deer moving fluidly in response to hunting pressure, food sources, etc. You can temporaraly lower the population of course, but I have seen at the end of a season, on a small or medium size property that gets hammered by hunters (while neigboring properties do not) the deer just move over into the vacant ground after the season. When the ratios are that far out of wack, I thought it would be like trying to make a hole in a puddle of water by sticking your finger in it. As soon as you remove it, its gone.

However, the more time I thought about the less sure I am. There are less deer in your woods now than there would have been. Your numbers dont lie obviously. I am curious how your sightings change over the summer and next year...

RE: Can we make a difference?
 

I saw over 100 LESS deer, this year...than I did, last year. BUT.....I have reasons why I think that is (other than me thinning deer out). I hope to see even less deer, next season.

Edited --(Now that doesn't sound like someone who's a hunter, does it????:D)

RE: Can we make a difference?
 

Whatever works right?

RE: Can we make a difference?
 

Jeff,

This thread is one of the reasons why I posted my thread, It got me thinking about all the does I killed over the years in the herds I hunt and I can honestly tell you I have seen zero difference in the herd dynamics over the years.

Makes me re-think why I'm even doing it in the first place (besides enjoying the hunt). Illinois seems to have it's act together statewide with the overall deer herd health, why shouldn't I just let mother nature handle above an beyond that?

RE: Can we make a difference?
 

^agreed

Not sure if this is pertinent but let me give the example of some public land I used to gun hunt. It was a very productive and thus a popular spot. Every year there wereat least 100(not exaggerating)vehicles within that square2 miles on opening day. By 10am there were 2-3 sometimes 4-5 deer in almost every single one of those vehicles. By the end of the 10 day gun season, literally hundreds upon hundreds of deerwould betaken out of just those 2 square miles. Yet... year after year, it continues to happen just the same way. In some areas, hundreds of hunters can't even contain the poplulation.

RE: Can we make a difference?
 

I am 100% positive you can make a difference, see my post on BIGJ's thread. If you have the right goals and hunting buddies it can happen it just usually takes more time than we would like.