PA antler restrictions need changed!!
 

im a believer in the antler restrictions pa has adopted in the last few years. the law is 4 tines no less then 1 inch on one side. im starting to see a problem now though. no doubt i have seen more deer, bucks especially since the law came into effect, however i have also seen more and more large 6 points, old deer with bad genetics, and such. a lot of people are seeing the same type of stuff where they hunt, one guy told me that he had seen a 3 1/2 year old six point with a massive body, and a 18-19" spread. but he couldnt shoot it and instead he shot a basket rack 8 point (i'd say 1 1/2 years old.) so now the bad gene buck is able to spread his seed. what do other states do to get around this issue?

RE: PA antler restrictions need changed!!
 

Good point - I never thought of that scenario.

But how would you fix this problem? If you were the DNR and could re-write the rule, how would you word it?

Maybe you require that all bucks must either have 4 points on one side, OR be at least "past the ears". That way you could still shoot a mature 6 point as long as it has a good spread.

RE: PA antler restrictions need changed!!
 

He can spread his bad genetics around me anytime he pleases!

RE: PA antler restrictions need changed!!
 

I've still yet to see a BIG non-legal deer. I guess there are a few, but I've yet to see one.

Not much you can do except hope a kid gets it. I don;t feel the situation arises enough to warrant a rule change.

RE: PA antler restrictions need changed!!
 

your understanding of the alw is incorrect.. the 4 on one side is not for the whole state of pa, infact most places are governed under the rule of 3 on one side.. you just happen to be ina spot that dictates the 4 on one side rule, i feel bad for ya..

RE: PA antler restrictions need changed!!
 

i understand the law and i know that in most places in pa the restriction is only 3 on one side. but no matter how you slice it a 3 1/2 year old six point is bad genetics!

RE: PA antler restrictions need changed!!
 

i guess what i would try to do is put some exception in. maybe 14" spread min. or 4 on one side (or 3 in those areas) do any other states have a law like that?

RE: PA antler restrictions need changed!!
 

Sorry but without aging deer it is hard to say. The average hunter can not tell by sight alone, me included.

RE: PA antler restrictions need changed!!
 

I agree with you to a point (very small point). You are right about the 6 points that never get killed because they are not legal in an 4-to-a-side county. Since they started the 4 pts. to a side in my county (Greene) we are seeing more deer and harvesting nice deer. Look what has happened to our neighboring state of West Virginia, their hunting is pathetic because of no restrictions and slaughtering all the does and shooting anything that has horns. I do think some counties in PA that do have the 4points to a side should be dropped to 3 points to a side, but only a few.

RE: PA antler restrictions need changed!!
 

West Virginia has tried that 14" crap in certain places and hunters are killing deer thats spread is 9" or 10" and leaving the deer lay. We don't need to carry a tape measure when we're hunting.

RE: PA antler restrictions need changed!!
 

i agree with that, i do see better deer, more deer and finally older deer. and i agree with letting youth hunters shoot any buck, i just think that the wholestate needs to either go with 3 on one side. i have seen 2 big six points this year, if either of them had 8 instead they would be shooters. hopefully a youth can connect with them.

RE: PA antler restrictions need changed!!
 

same happened to me in Greene County 2 years ago. I had a nice 6 point with about a 20" inside spread approach me, I stood in my stand and shoook for 30 minutes because he wsn't legal because he had no brow tines. Would have been a nice trophy in any other state or county for that matter but in Greene County they have to be 4 to a side........

RE: PA antler restrictions need changed!!
 

Let me ask you something nwpahntr. It doesn't seem you mind killing DOES (see avatar picture) so why do you care if the PA deer have 3 or 4 to a side?

RE: PA antler restrictions need changed!!
 

Why is it bad genetics? Because he won't score well. That is a VERY poor "genetic" argument.

RE: PA antler restrictions need changed!!
 

your right i dont mind killing does when there are too many on the property, but i do care about good genetics. i lease a 500 acre peice of property that i want to manage over the upcoming years and its kind of hard to do that with a mature 6 point who is untouchable. I hunt mature deer, and instead of being able to harvest this 6 point and call him a trophy i now get to watch him pass genetics that i dont like around the farm. are you saying shooting a doe is a bad thing?

RE: PA antler restrictions need changed!!
 

PA genetics are fine. Those deer come from some of the finest stock of whitetail on the planet. It's not bad genetics, it's a bad age structure.

...and I'd highly doubt that there isANY PA buck that lives it's entire life and never grows a legal rack, and dies of old age.

Prove me wrong if you can, but I don't think you can.

RE: PA antler restrictions need changed!!
 

Dont call it bad genetics we are not hunting for the rack and if you are then you should probly not hunt. Because the only reason we have a hunting season is too keep the population in check. This is a buck that will reproduce and make more but this dose not mean his offspring will even live on your property actually the odds are that they will not. because its mother will run it off when it get to about 1 year old. Also we dont even know if the offspring will have antlers like his fathers or not I am sure you are not a 100% copy of your father. I depends on the doe too. Rember it take two. So not this dose not have bad genectics and his offspring might look like him or they might not who knows. There is nothing rong with the PA system I wish wisconsin had one like it.

RE: PA antler restrictions need changed!!
 

Just look at the difference in mature quality bucksyour state has made in just the past 4 or 5 years. I personally have noticed a huge change and I live in Oklahoma. I wish we had the same law as you have. I don't think I would be complaining at all. Ya, you might occasionally run into a mature 6, but I don't believe the odds are as great as you are making them out to be. Besides, pass on the 6, b/c there is always an oppurtunity for a bruiser 10 or 12 around the corner, especially with the age structure increasing in your area. My $.02

RE: PA antler restrictions need changed!!
 

Don't forget to mention that is on the western part of the state and not a state wide law. Here in my neck of the woods it's 3 points to a side...I wish it were 4.

RE: PA antler restrictions need changed!!
 

You mean a buck like this....




yeah, this is what is wrong with antler restrictions. I am all for letting the little bucks grow into big ones, but there is no reason I shouldn't be able to shoot this buck. I believe he is a 3 1/2 year old deer that has bad genetics.

RE: PA antler restrictions need changed!!
 

I agree Pops but with all the "wrongs" with AR there are too many "rights"...just think tho, perhaps next year he'll spout a kicker and really be something....legal, bigger and more impressive and if you get an opportunity you might go, I'm glad I didn't shoot him last year.;)

RE: PA antler restrictions need changed!!
 

I am in Beaver county and we have the 4 pt on one side rule here. I hope they never change this. I have seen so many more bucks with age and nice racks over the last couple of years. I think the restrictions are really working. I have only once seen a really large buck with an illegal rack (monster 4 pt haha). Bottom line where we have the 4pt rule we have deer with pretty good genes and I don't think anything needs changed. I also have a camp in Forest county. It is a 3 pt to a side there. 5 years ago I was lucky to see a fork horn there. though I would see 40 doe and maybe a spike or two in one sit. Now I hear people complaining that "they are killing to many doe there and we are not seeing any deer anymore..20 years ago you would see herds of 60 or 70 deer and this restriction is not working because everyone is killing the does and now we have no bucks" Some people just don't realize that seeing 45 doe and only one spike is bad. Yes seeing that many deer in one sit is awesome, but that ratio is very bad. Now you actually have to hunt now a little harder in the big woods up there. I think that is great because now I am seeing nice bucks up there as well. Last year on the 1st day of rifle instead of seeing a ton of does I saw 3 does and 3 bucks. 2 were legal one being a nice 8 pt that would have been in the 120's and a really nice 10 pt that would easy been in the 130's. The other was a spike. I could not get a shot at any of the 2 legal bucks, but I did take a doe. Even though I only seen 6 deer all day I was happy with the ratio of the deer.

RE: PA antler restrictions need changed!!
 

I wish mn would adopt antler restrictions. You guys in pa are lucky. where i hunt there are a good 10 (atleast) does to every buck. nobody around my land shoots does. bucks hardly ever get beyone their first year. it's not naturual. the antler restrictions help, they are by no means perfect. but they help balance things out.

I do think that kids under 18 or 16 should be allowed to shoot whatever buck they want. we need the kids to get involved.

RE: PA antler restrictions need changed!!
 

well i gota agree,we arepassing on small legal bucks that are young, by our choice(but probably wont make it through rifle season), and can't shoot that 3 1/2 yr old spike that we've seen numerous times chasing does the last two seasons and he's not the only one with bad genes we can't shoot that is older than 2 1/2. we have great food sources, and also dont hunt tues or thurs to keep hunting pressure to a minimum, thickcover and water.as far as " we are not hunting for the rack" quote, that is exactly what the PGC has forced us to do. i would have no problem slamming these old bucks with an arrow, but i'm in a delima, we Are forced to hunt for horns. the pgc should take an approach to educate hunters on aging deer, sway backs ,sagging belly ,thick muzzles, grey faces.etc. granted some deer are hard to age in the feild. these are just my thoughts, and or mindless ramblings from a hunter in 5B, with a 3pt minimum.

RE: PA antler restrictions need changed!!
 

In georgia there are a few select counties that have been under the antler res. I happen to hunt in one. I think it is great, however I see your point with the big sixes and others. For the last few years we have been under the 4 points on one side law, but this year the rule has extended statewide that at least one of your two buck limit has to have 4 points one side. They should put an exception in the law that would maybe go like this... Bucks that are harvested with less than 4 points on one side must be aged to determine that they are 3-1/2 yrs. or older to avoid citation.
The restrictions work, I have seenresults. They just need to be inforced in Ga.

RE: PA antler restrictions need changed!!
 

the main problem i have with AR's is that the BEST 1.5 year olds are generally legal.

RE: PA antler restrictions need changed!!
 

Spikes are caused by late birthing, not heredity, for the most part.

RE: PA antler restrictions need changed!!
 

Such a spindly rack, I'd say 2.5 year old buck. Take a child hunting, that buck would make an awesome first kill for a youth hunter. Otherwise, that buck may go non-typical in coming years and grow a few kickers. Not a reason in my book to scrap a good idea that works overall. Where was that pic taken, just out of curiosity? Looks more like a young Texas fence buck.

RE: PA antler restrictions need changed!!
 

I'd say its all about due time. The deer will eventually mature enough to be able to shoot. Luckily, in my side of P.A., the antler restriction is 3 on one side. I'd be glad to help ya out with the problem if you wanna push them my way :D

RE: PA antler restrictions need changed!!
 

It's not a perfect system, but it's definitely doing more good than bad. Perhaps in a few years they will change it to 4 points to a side or a minimum 18" outside spread. I'll still take it over hoping to see a spiker or forkie once a year.

RE: PA antler restrictions need changed!!
 

The problem w/ aging bucks is that during rifle season , if some of the trigger happy guys around here that I know of , will shoot first and let it lay if it's not old enough.
The 2 day a year rifle hunter will fill the air with more lead than you can carry, if a rack that looks close to legal comes within 1/2 a mile of him.
It's an unrealistic expectation for gun hunters on public land to "take their time and age the deer" when they are running by at mach 3.

AR is here to stay because it works. I've never seen a 31/2 year old200lb. spike. Where are you hunting?

RE: PA antler restrictions need changed!!
 

I feel your pain. I seen a massive 4 pointer! yes 4 pointer was rediculously thick and at least 18" wide, walked under my stand 3 times last year, i called him back every time with my can. He was obviously the dominant buck in the area, but I couldnt put brow tines on him to save my life. So he went on down the trail and I shook my head, however I ended up shooting a 142" a week later in montgomery county. So Ill take the rule any day of the week. However, I also talk to the local game warden and not to bust any bubbles, but just as many 4 and spikes with a Y one one side are being shot, people just say they mistaked them. We need harshy penalties for the "Mistake kills" that is...if they keep the rule. depends on what your hunting for. Meat and a lot of lil racks, or big thickmature deer, but not so many. Just my opinion, good luck to everyone going out tomorrow morning, its finally cooled down here in SE PA so im heading out first thing in the am.

RE: PA antler restrictions need changed!!
 

ok i dont think someof you are understanding me. dont get me wrong I LOVE THE AR PA HAS ADOPTED! and i dont hunt for horns. let me put it to you this way, say your in your stand and a2 1/2 y.o.8 point with a 18 inch spread we'll say he scores 125walks by with this mature buck behind it 6 points, 18 wide real tall: which would you rather shoot? the 6, not because of the rack but because it is a mature deer right? but you cant. we are forced to shoot the immature buck instead. and in a sense we are forced to hunt for horns. i understand the quality of the pa deer has gone way way up. im not saying i want them to change the AR all im saying is it would be nice if there could be something else to go with it. or somehow make it possible to shoot mature deer even if they dont have 4 on one side.

RE: PA antler restrictions need changed!!
 

I agree, I am a fan of AR, but I have the same issue. I have been watching the same 6 pointer with a wide spread and heavy mass on my fathers farm for 3 years. I hunt 2D Clarion County where it is 4 on one side. If he made it through last year, we now believe he is 6 or 7. I have had him in front of me the last two years. We have not seen him yet this year so I don't know if he made it through the last rifle season. I wish there was some way to take him as he is a monster, but I don't think letting guys judge spreads is the answer.

RE: PA antler restrictions need changed!!
 

Prime example of why Gary Alt left. No matter what restrictions are in place or not in place, there are going to be unhappy people. I heard that it was a $150 fine for killing anything smaller than 4pt/side, is that true? I grew up hunting Greene and Washington counties, if it had a nub it was shot. I also grew up spotting and I know there are some monsters out there. But I also shot every small rack buck that walked by, because I was young and didn't know about letting them grow. I shot more than my share of small racks (nothing illegal just that I shot a lot of deer) because if you didn't, he would walk over the hill and get shot by someone else. There isn't a rule or restriction that will apply to all situations and everyone won't be happy, but I will trade you for some of the places I have lived.

archer58 - my parents used to own land up at Treasure Lake, it's been 25 years ago, but it was a beautiful place.

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RE: PA antler restrictions need changed!!
 

I frequently see a very nice mature 4pt buck. (2 points per side) And everytime I just wish I could take the shot. He has got to be at least 4-5 years old now. I have seen him the past 3 years and his rack just gets more and more mass but never more points. His body is huge. I might even go as far to say he is the biggested bodied PA deer I have ever seen in person. But again, each and every time I just have to smile and hope he's not passing on those genes.

RE: PA antler restrictions need changed!!
 

No law is perfect. Bottom line: which senerio happens more? The one posted above, or a 1.5 year old six gets the smack down put on him cause he is legal cause you want to reduce the point restrictions. I have a 3 point restriction and i wish it was four. I monitor 200 acres nearly all year round with a truckload of game cameras and I only had one deer like you mentioned. ( a 3.5 year old six point last year)If he is the exception to the rule in order to getbetter deer than I am happy.

RE: PA antler restrictions need changed!!
 

Guys, I am certainly not complaining at all. Just saying a mature buck like this is a shame that it can't be taken out. I believe that deer is at least 3 1/2 based on the body. I have a picture of him as a wide 4 point (no brows) from last year.

I'm all for the antler restrictions and have this argument with my Dad and his friends all the time. I was just pointing out the that sometimes there are flaws.

And I'm also with you guys that I think in a year or so, he may have some extra points that will make him legal.

RE: PA antler restrictions need changed!!
 

Actually, his genes may be great. Once bucks get to certain age, their racks go downhill. There are other factors also. If he is not of a dominate nature, or there is something wrong with him physically, he will grow an inferior rack despite good genes.
Find a kid and go get that mossy head. Would make a great first buck for some kid.