'Bowhunter', Say it isn't so.......
 

I guess maybe it is a sign of the times, a sad one if you ask me. A while back some of you posted about the treatment you recieved from 'Buckmaster' with their bogus video series and subscription plot. When I read that post I just shook my head in disgust.

Guess what! In the mail yesterday came a video from 'Bowhunter' magazine with an attached letter stating I was a "special subscriber" and therefore deserved "special treatment" (yeah right). In the nutshell it says here is a video for your entertainment but if you want to keep it send us $7.00, then every 2-3 months you will be getting another video at regular subscriber rates (pretty smooth eh!)

Perhaps I should state that the only reason I am so shocked by this marketing ploy are the people who are attached to this garbage. M.R. James, Dwight Schuh, Larry Jones, are (or should I say were) three of the most respected names in bowhunting circles. Why would they allow their image to be used in a marketing scheme for the obvious purpose of getting into the pockets of fellow hunters like a traveling snake oil salesman.

Tell me I am over reacting but I'm sorry, I have better things to do than run around returning videos that I didn't ask for in the first place. You can bet that my subscription to 'Bowhunter' is as good as gone.

RE: 'Bowhunter', Say it isn't so.......
 

AND guess what. If it was sent to you unsolicited you don't have to return it. You can keep it, burn it .... do anything you want. It is ILLEGAL in the United States to do this and make people pay. It was a ploy of olf scams 40 years ago. It's been illegal for at least 15-20 years. I have a set of 3 they sent me about 2 years ago. I opened the package yesterday and viewed the "goof ups".

RE: 'Bowhunter', Say it isn't so.......
 

Thanks Davidmil....

I guess it is just the principle of the thing that is eating away at me. These are the same people that remind you to take only ethical shots but at the same time don't mind taking "the back door" into your pocket book. What's that all about???

We hunters can be a sorry lot at times. Addicts we are...slap a little camouflage paint on something and say it is a hunting necessity, we start shaking, our eyes glaze over, the drool starts to flow, and we end up paying 2 or 3 times the cost it would be without it. Some of us don't get to spend as much time hunting as we would like so at times we live vicariously through others. The hunting videos are a prime example. We get to "feel" like we are there when we are unable to get out. Because of our "illness" we are ripe for the picking. It is no secret, we all know it. Like an alcoholic wants the bottle, we will do the most ridiculous things to get our hunting fix.

Perhaps I am just fed up with my own vulnerability. At any rate this is where I draw the line in the sand. Don't pee down my back and tell me it's raining. If I wanted to watch a video I would go look until I found the one I wanted to see, I'm a hunter for goodness sakes, I can find things on my own...<img src=icon_smile_shock.gif border=0 align=middle>

[Deleted]
 

[Deleted by Admins]

[Deleted]
 

[Deleted by Admins]

RE: 'Bowhunter', Say it isn't so.......
 

Whats the big deal??? If you like the first video for $7 buy it! If not , send it back , it doesn't cost you a cent. If you buy the first video for $7 , the other videos are $20 , but if you dont like them , send them back at no cost to you. Again , what's the problem? I've done this same deal several times , it averages out to around $17 a video which is pretty average. If you dont want to buy the video , consider it FREE rental for 30 days. Sounds like a pretty good deal to me! I dont think this should be compared to the Buckmaster shananagan.

RE: 'Bowhunter', Say it isn't so.......
 

Lazyarcher,

Great idea!!!

Bowfanatic,

Here is the big deal...I didn't ask for, request, or want the video they sent. Furthermore I wouldn't consider the video they sent to be a complete video. In other words it appears to me that the hunts on this video are actually clips from other videos, it isn't very long.

I have viewed some of their other videos they offer for sale in the magazine and didn't find them to my liking. Why would I want to buy something I don't care for, especially when force fed.

Call me crazy, but conducting business in this manner is in my opinion (and it looks like I could be in the minority here) shameful.<img src=icon_smile_dissapprove.gif border=0 align=middle>

RE: 'Bowhunter', Say it isn't so.......
 

Just keep the video, if they send a bill toss it in the trash. I agree with it being right next to the telemarketing deals that I hang up on.

RE: 'Bowhunter', Say it isn't so.......
 

Bowfanatic,

The problem is its a force feed marketing ploy. I recieved the unsolicited video from Buckmasters and I kept it and WILL NOT PAY!!

Just imagine, going to your mailbox one day to find, A pair of shoes, a can of soup, a box of broadheads, a lamp, etc., etc. all with a letter stating please pay or send back.

If you allow this marketing scam to do well, by buying from it, the above scenario is not far away.

RE: 'Bowhunter', Say it isn't so.......
 

Call me crazy! I think ya'll could find something far more important in this world to complain about other than watching a hunting video (free of charge) , deciding wether or not you like it enough to purchase it or send it back. For those that say &quot;keep it and dont pay&quot;<img src=icon_smile_dissapprove.gif border=0 align=middle> You better take a good look at your everyday life ethics.

>>>---Doug--->

RE: 'Bowhunter', Say it isn't so.......
 

Bowfanatic,

Of course there are more important things in life to complain about that goes without saying...However I am somewhat astonished that you are so quick to condemn your fellow brethren on their &quot;everyday life ethics&quot; yet at the same time turn a blind eye to marketing tactics that are less than forth coming and in some cases would appear to be illegal.

RE: 'Bowhunter', Say it isn't so.......
 

i dont see much of a problem with this either...
if u dont want to pay for the videos, dont. keep the one you have and dont pay for it. if you do this, in a way you will be boycotting their products as well.
if u have a problem with that, just throw it away or send it back. as its already been stated, you dont legally have to pay for it.

RE: 'Bowhunter', Say it isn't so.......
 

Outdoor life sent me one of those last year. I sent it back. But I kept the crappy little grunt call they sent with it. It doesn't even work anymore.

&quot;Hey ya'll, watch this&quot;

RE: 'Bowhunter', Say it isn't so.......
 

Antler Eater, I too am appalled, shocked, saddened and outraged that you would... have anyone think you're overreacting to this situation! <img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>

Seriously though, you've articulated one of the biggest problems which most Americans past and present have fallen prey to. I'm not sure if it's unawareness as much as it is apathy.

Remember the old analogy of how to cook a frog? You throw him in a pot of boiling water, he jumps right out. Put him in a pot of cool water and turn the temperature up a few degrees at a time, and he acclimates himself all the way 'til he croaks and floats upside down.

It IS outrageous to expect me to be responsible to pay -- out of my own pocket -- (and to take your precious time, which costs me WAY more!) to bother with sending something back so I'm not charged with it when it comes UNSOLICITED!

Rack-attack is exactly right in companies being able to transcend this methodology of &quot;advertising&quot; and &quot;selling&quot; to other mediums if people like Antler Eater don't stand up now. Frankly, as a business owner and someone who currently makes a living in professional sales, I find it sickening.

I just returned from a conference in St. Louis where our company brought in a purchasing agent to speak with a group of professional salesmen. Among his tidbits of advice -- from the other side, if you will, was to never call someone and leave them a message stating, &quot;This is Joe, and I wanted to drop in to see you later. Call me back and let me know what time would be good for you.&quot; At least not until you've developed a relationship with that client.

His point? Why is it his responsibility to take time out his busy day and do your job for you?! The same exact thinking should apply here.


Discipline -- not desire -- determines destiny.

RE: 'Bowhunter', Say it isn't so.......
 

north american hunting club does the same thing they sent videos and books i keep the product and toss the bill in the trash

RE: 'Bowhunter', Say it isn't so.......
 

Antler I am with you on this one. Don't send me something I didn't order and expect me to pay for it. If I wanted it I would have orderd it in the first place. It's kind of like slow motion telamarketing. I would keep the video, but send a rock or something very heavy in the return postage package. That way you get a free video and maybe they will get the message at the same time!

TAKE YOUR KIDS HUNTING AND YOU WON'T BE HUNTING FOR YOUR KIDS

RE: 'Bowhunter', Say it isn't so.......
 

AE...I agree. I got a video from the NRA a couple months ago. It's in my collection now, but I'm not sending them $ for it. I support them all the way, but I didn't ask for the stupid video. If I want something, I'll order it and pay for it. I don't care for that type of marketing scheme, and I certainly don't have time to go to the post office to send back something that I didn't ask for in the first place. I figure eventually they'll put my name on the &quot;don't send him anything else&quot; list.

RE: 'Bowhunter', Say it isn't so.......
 

I'm with you, Antler Eater. I hate this kind of marketing. I'll order what I want, please don't choose for me Mr. Telemarketer. It's a hassle to return stuff you don't want. I don't know that not returning the initial video constitutes an agreement to accept future videos or not, but it could become a problem. Maybe those of you that have no problem with the unsolicited goods can stop by and pick them up for return, for those of us that have the problem.<img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>

Phil.
&quot;Could you guys be quiet, my dad's trying to shoot.&quot;<img src=icon_smile_shock.gif border=0 align=middle>

RE: 'Bowhunter', Say it isn't so.......
 

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote<font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
Bowfanatic,

Of course there are more important things in life to complain about that goes without saying...However I am somewhat astonished that you are so quick to condemn your fellow brethren on their &quot;everyday life ethics&quot; yet at the same time turn a blind eye to marketing tactics that are less than forth coming and in some cases would appear to be illegal.


<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>


I didn't condemn anyone! I did however question their ethics. The type of ethics we have in everyday life tends to reflect on the type of hunting ethics we follow. There is absolutely NOTHING illegal in what their doing with these videos. If you carefully read the entire letter that comes with the first video you'll see that if you watch and decide to keep the first video , only then will others be sent. It's more of a pain in the butt to run to the video store and rent a video than it is to receive one in the mail , watch it for a few weeks and then stick it back in it's box , slap the return label on it and stick it in your mailbox , and the latter is free of charge.
I'll let ya in on a little secret. You want to boycott these tactics by keeping the video and throwing the bill in the trash? Then your boycotting your hunting &quot;brethren&quot;! Alot of the money generated from those video sales goes back into our natural resources and also goes into other hunting oriented charitable organizations. Who are you boycotting??? The Drury brothers??? Yes , my latest video collection that I recieved this way just happens to be a Drury Outdoors video collection.
Antler Eater , lets talk about condemning bowhunting brethren!

<font color=red>&quot;Perhaps I should state that the only reason I am so shocked by this marketing ploy are the people who are attached to this garbage. M.R. James, Dwight Schuh, Larry Jones, are (or should I say were) three of the most respected names in bowhunting circles. Why would they allow their image to be used in a marketing scheme for the obvious purpose of getting into the pockets of fellow hunters like a traveling snake oil salesman.

Tell me I am over reacting but I'm sorry, I have better things to do than run around returning videos that I didn't ask for in the first place. You can bet that my subscription to 'Bowhunter' is as good as gone.</font id=red>

Your ready to condemn the likes of M.R. James , Dwight Schue , Larry Jones , and Bowhunting mag all because of their tactics to try and generate more funds to keep Bowhunter mag alive for our grandkids and their grandkids. Or was it because of your inconvenience of having to mail it back (free of charge)?

I'm not sure about the legality of keeping something that was sent to you without your request and not paying for it?? Maybe that is legal. I guess Bowhunting Mag and Outdoorlife just assumed that their hunting brethren have a higher moral standard.

RE: 'Bowhunter', Say it isn't so.......
 

I don't see any noble cause here that I would have to worry about keeping &quot;Bowhunter mag alive for our grandkids and their grandkids&quot;. They can sell subscriptions like they have in the past and do just fine. Further, to insinuate that taking a stand against these marketing tactics would rob our natural resources and &quot;other other hunting oriented charitable organizations&quot; of valuable funds borders on the absurd. That is just not factual.

As for my remark concerning Mr. James, Mr. Schuh, and Mr. Jones. These men are highly esteemed in the hunting community, they wield great influence. Having made small talk with two of the three I AM astonished they allow their image to be marketed in this fashion. In their defense they may not be aware of it or can't do anything about it. But you see, it wouldn't matter if it were Fred Bear himself that marketed videos this way- I can't in good conscience support these actions. It is a scheme, a ploy, a marketing strategy devised to add dollars to the bottom line of Primedia Publications Inc. and not to make donations to the World Wildlife Fund or enhance our grandchildren's outdoor experience. I made a living in sales for more than twenty years. If I would have marketed my product in like fashion, I would have lost my license, been heavily fined, and possibly locked up. I have always felt that people would rather buy something than be sold something.


Bowfanatic, I'm not sure why this subject has struck such a sour chord with you but obviously it has. You have a right to your opinion and I respect that.

RE: 'Bowhunter', Say it isn't so.......
 

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote<font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>I'll let ya in on a little secret. You want to boycott these tactics by keeping the video and throwing the bill in the trash? Then your boycotting your hunting &quot;brethren&quot;! Alot of the money generated from those video sales goes back into our natural resources and also goes into other hunting oriented charitable organizations. Who are you boycotting??? The Drury brothers??? Yes , my latest video collection that I recieved this way just happens to be a Drury Outdoors video collection.
Antler Eater , lets talk about condemning bowhunting brethren!
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>

WOW&lt; Now I am shocked.
So your saying that without paying for this video the DNR in state will fold up? That no handicapped kids will be able to hunt? That all the hunting videos productions will cease?

Or more likely, Jackie Bushman will have to find more sponsors to pay for his trip to Canada to shoot a 150 class buck and act as if it is just another buck. The others will not be able to take that trip to IL to stay on the stand and let all those 150 class bucks walk by them so they can shoot the 170 class buck the &quot;Guide&quot; told them was there and showed them on a video tape.

I dont know about all the companies listed in the above statements but I do know that Buckmasters did this to me. I have a busy enough life that I do not want or need to run to the Post Office to return something that I did not want nor ask for in the first place. If you choose to spend your time doing that, thats ok with me, just please do not expect me to feel the same way. I dont need any extra errands to run. Just because I like some of the writers in the Buckmasters Mag. does not mean I want to see Jackie hunting all across the country.

I think this is BS. If the companies are in bad shape, well I guess they could get more advertising in the Mags. (I dont see how they could fit anymore) Most of this is due to the rising costs of taking trophy deer on managed ranches and properties, just my opinion ofcourse, but why the sudden need to &quot;survive&quot;.

When the guy from Buckmasters showed up here he made the comment of all the deer supplied to Hunters for the Hungry. Hell, our club donates alot to that org. also,so do alot of hunters across the country, I personally dont beleive Jackie cares one bit, but as a man running a company, we all know that He is gonning need some write-offs.That goes for any company that makes a profit.

In closing, whith the development of shopping centers, Bass Pro Shops and Sporting good stores popping up all over the country and the ease of shopping via the net, If there is a product I want, well, I will pick up the phone, drive to the store,or turn on the computer and order it.

Hunting ; an act of love for nature guided by the strongest spiritual forces.
http://www.adventuresoutdoors.freehomepage.com/

RE: 'Bowhunter', Say it isn't so.......
 

Because MOST hunters have good ethics and are in general very honest, Bowhunter is taking advantage of it's clientel because they know we will try to make it right. THAT IS UNETHICAL!!!! I just talked to our District Attorney about this topic and he said anything sent to you via USPS that does not require an acceptance of delivery signature is unsolicited and is considered a gift, so don't let them buffaloe you into thinking you owe them an extra cent!!!

&quot;What we do in this life echos an eternity&quot;

Edited by - CG on 01/12/2003 14:37:23

RE: 'Bowhunter', Say it isn't so.......
 

I think everybody on this board should send BOWFANATIC a video from their collection and include with it a letter asking him to either keep it/pay for it and expect another one each month from then on....or return it no questions asked.


LOL thats a JOKE for those thinking of really doing it LOL

** I almost got him but I refuse to take a marginal shot **

RE: 'Bowhunter', Say it isn't so.......
 

I'm all for it knobby! I cant get enough hunting videos. As long as ya'll send a self addressed postage paid return container I'd be happy to view them free of charge if I decide I dont want to keep them. And ya know what? If I dont like them , you can count on me to send them back because I'm a man with integrity<img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>

<font color=red>&quot;WOW&lt; Now I am shocked.
So your saying that without paying for this video the DNR in state will fold up? That no handicapped kids will be able to hunt? That all the hunting videos productions will cease?&quot;</font id=red>

No Ben! Thats not what I said , read it again! Alot of these hunting video companys (Drury Outdoors for example) donate large $$$ each year to hunting oriented charitable orginizations along with DNR restocking programs , etc. I'm sure there are companys that dont give a rats behind about donating anything back into the hunting community , but I'd like to think that there are more companys that do give back to the hunting community.

<font color=red>&quot;Because MOST hunters have good ethics and are in general very honest, Bowhunter is taking advantage of it's clientel because they know we will try to make it right. THAT IS UNETHICAL!!!! I just talked to our District Attorney about this topic and he said anything sent to you via USPS that does not require an acceptance of delivery signature is unsolicited and is considered a gift, so don't let them buffaloe you into thinking you owe them an extra cent!!!&quot;</font id=red>

Could you or anyone here post a link that verifys this? And remember you DONT have to pay for it , you can send it back free of charge. Any link that states this type of thing as being &quot;a gift&quot; by law.

RE: 'Bowhunter', Say it isn't so.......
 

BOWFANATIC, guess I`m getting old and soft like you.<img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>
Those tapes don`t bother me either. I get them from the NRA also, and I watch `em for free. I always end up buying them, but if I wanted to I would just stick them in that postage paid envelope and send them back.

I do admit that I wish they would not send them to me, but I seem to have much more important things to get excited about!

NRA,UBP,BASS Member
New Stanton,PA

RE: 'Bowhunter', Say it isn't so.......
 

OK, I got well over 100 videos. Do I send them to Bowfanatic piecemeal or several at a time. I was thinking of selling them for $2 or $3 dollars a piece. If I charge $17 for them... all he'll have to do is pick up the option on 16 or 17 and I'm ahead of the game. What about the videos from &quot;This Old House&quot;? Can I throw those in also? I mean I don't need them... maybe he'll forget to send it back and I can start sending him bills. Wait a minute... WHY BOTHER to even send him the things. I'll do it like Buckmasters. When I don't get it back(cause I never sent it) I can bill him and turn the collection agency loose on him. That's the ticket. Who needs to work? I'm going to start a video scam and call it.... ahhh... errrrr.... let's see.... &quot;Buckscamster&quot;.

RE: 'Bowhunter', Say it isn't so.......
 

I am not surprised with that from them.They tried all that crap with me and I didn't even have a subscription.Years ago they sent me a magazine that I didn't order and started demanding payment(even threatened turning me over to a collection agency).They even sent a nice hard back book.They threatened me and everything else but they seemed to forget that anything that is sent to you without you asking for it is yours to keep.

You do not have to pay for the video or even send it back.It is there mistake and it is yours to keep free.They can not make you pay for something you didn't order or even ask you to send it back.

What some others have stated is true.Keep it and if they give you any trouble just cancel your subscription.


The problem is that they are trying to force you into a deal that you may or may not want to make.I have better things to do than spend my time packaging and sending crap back that I didn't want in the first place.

RE: 'Bowhunter', Say it isn't so.......
 

Edit-REFER TO NEXT POST!

&quot;What we do in this life echos an eternity&quot;

Edited by - CG on 01/12/2003 20:41:59

RE: 'Bowhunter', Say it isn't so.......
 

WHAT THEY ARE DOING IS 100% ILLEGAL!!!!!!!!!!!! I just found what the USPS has to say about it.

https://www.usps.com/websites/depart/inspect/merch.htm

&quot;What we do in this life echos an eternity&quot;

RE: 'Bowhunter', Say it isn't so.......
 

Great post CG.Looks like Buckmaster might have some explaining to do.

RE: 'Bowhunter', Say it isn't so.......
 

It makes perfect sense to me....I rest my case your honor!:)

Thanks for the link CG.

RE: 'Bowhunter', Say it isn't so.......
 

i don't think we should send bowfantic any videos....i think we should go w/rack-attack's idea and show bow what to expect in the next generation force feed marketing ploys. everyone send him a lamp, toaster, or a pair of shoes.....come on guys gather up your goods and skip this years garage sale and send all your junk to bowfanatic....LOL of course bow if you want to keep the stuff we're only gonna charge you &quot;fair market&quot; garage sale prices. <img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>

RE: 'Bowhunter', Say it isn't so.......
 

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote<font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
i don't think we should send bowfantic any videos....i think we should go w/rack-attack's idea and show bow what to expect in the next generation force feed marketing ploys. everyone send him a lamp, toaster, or a pair of shoes.....come on guys gather up your goods and skip this years garage sale and send all your junk to bowfanatic....LOL of course bow if you want to keep the stuff we're only gonna charge you &quot;fair market&quot; garage sale prices. <img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>

<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_sleepy.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_sleepy.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_dead.gif border=0 align=middle> Your humor is killing me! I will only accept hunting videos , anything else will be returned to sender. I believe davidmil had the best price on hunting videos. Email me and I'll give you my address<img src=icon_smile_tongue.gif border=0 align=middle>

Thanks for the link CG! Gosh , I wonder if that bit about charitable donations would apply to those hunting organizations that donate a portion of the proceeds back into the hunting community<img src=icon_smile_question.gif border=0 align=middle>
Oh well , I guess we'll each pick our own battles.

RE: 'Bowhunter', Say it isn't so.......
 

I had the same thing happen with Buckmasters. I returned it, next time I'm not.

Also who in their right mind would sick a bill collector on you for $7? Also, I don't think that they can bill you for your non-response either.

RE: 'Bowhunter', Say it isn't so.......
 

Double Lung,they were going to report me for the magazine subscription.THAT I DIDN'T ORDER!


This is the main reason I refuse to subscribe to their magazine.

RE: 'Bowhunter', Say it isn't so.......
 

Tfox-

Who cares about $15 subscription either? It'll cost them more than that to get the $15. I don't worry about collection threats unless the $$$ is large over $200, but that is rare case, like when I sold my townhome and they forgot to charge me $104 and then tried to collect afterwards, I said I don't own it anymore, guess what haven't heard from them since, they are not going to spend money for piddly stuff like that, IMHO.

RE: 'Bowhunter', Say it isn't so.......
 

I agree that this is not that big of a deal, but I is still a hasal that people should not have to deal with. The people at buckmasters are smart, they showed that with all the complaints that we had with the first buckmasters post. They know that people are more afraid of ruining they're credit than not paying, so people will pay it. And as far as the &quot;everyday ethics&quot; is concerned, what kind of human ethic is it to scare people into seeing it, or doing it your way. I'll tell you what kind of ethics it is. In grade school we called them bullies, in the real world we call them a$$holes, or chicken sh**s. But just as everyone knows, that when you stand up to them they will back down like a whooped pup.
And as far as the charity is concerned, I am not interested in supporting the &quot;Jackie Bushman Crisis Fund&quot;, I would much rather put my money into organizations who's soul purpose is to advance, and invest in the improvement of hunters and the game we hunt.

Leland Bunting