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-   -   Preferences..single or dual cam? (https://www.huntingnet.com/forum/bowhunting/199941-preferences-single-dual-cam.html)

Philg 07-30-2007 06:55 PM
Preferences..single or dual cam?
 
What do you prefer to shoot and why?

davepjr71 07-30-2007 07:09 PM
RE: Preferences..single or dual cam?
 
Binary cam Allegiance. Speed of duel with none of the timing issues or cam lean issues of the Cam or cam 1.5.

bballhead44 07-30-2007 07:18 PM
RE: Preferences..single or dual cam?
 
i shoot a single cam...no timing issues...and less stuff to go wrong;);)

IL-Cornfed 07-30-2007 07:26 PM
RE: Preferences..single or dual cam?
 
Other than the Mathews guys, who shoots single cams ??? [&:]

Nearly everyone I know choses a hybrid cam system, be it from Hoyt, BowTech, etc. From my experience it's a more consistent shooting system without the 100" of string to constantly stretch and creep on ya.

Rick James 07-30-2007 07:27 PM
RE: Preferences..single or dual cam?
 
ORIGINAL: davepjr71

Binary cam Allegiance. Speed of duel with none of the timing issues or cam lean issues of the Cam or cam 1.5.
Can you explain exactly how a dual cam has cam lean issues and how the binaries on your Allegiance solves this?

Rick James 07-30-2007 07:29 PM
RE: Preferences..single or dual cam?
 
ORIGINAL: IL-Cornfed

Other than the Mathews guys, who shoots single cams ??? [&:]

Nearly everyone I know choses a hybrid cam system, be it from Hoyt, BowTech, etc. From my experience it's a more consistent shooting system without the 100" of string to constantly stretch and creep on ya.
Instead you prefer 100" of cable and a binary or CPS/cam.5 is more consistent with 2x as much cabling? Explain to us exactly how.......[8D]

This is going to be an interesting thread........lol.

davepjr71 07-30-2007 07:31 PM
RE: Preferences..single or dual cam?
 
Typical cam bows that use the split yoke have problems with cam lean due to the upper harness attached to the outside of the limbs?

By attaching the cables to the cam instead of the end of the limbs there is less chance of cam lean. It's not only done by Bowtech.

Also,Binary cam bowshave 2 seperate cables not 1 continuous cable like the cam1.5 and the single cam. I'm not sure where you got the idea that they have 1 continuous cable? By slaving the cams together using the 2 cables both binaries turn together and eliminate timing issues.

ArrowMike 07-30-2007 07:43 PM
RE: Preferences..single or dual cam?
 
ORIGINAL: Rick James

ORIGINAL: davepjr71

Binary cam Allegiance. Speed of duel with none of the timing issues or cam lean issues of the Cam or cam 1.5.
Can you explain exactly how a dual cam has cam lean issues and how the binaries on your Allegiance solves this?
Maybe, he has the shoot through string system! Not!
Im sure this will be good.

davepjr71 07-30-2007 07:44 PM
RE: Preferences..single or dual cam?
 
Isn't that the Hoyt's that use the shoot through string systems to fix the cam lean problems?;););)

I don't believe that is required for the binary cam bows.

Also, I beleive I actually anwsered the question that was asked. I didn't name bows until the commetns started.

Mdbowhunter16 07-30-2007 07:44 PM
RE: Preferences..single or dual cam?
 

Rick James 07-30-2007 07:52 PM
RE: Preferences..single or dual cam?
 
ORIGINAL: davepjr71

Typical cam bows that use the split yoke have problems with cam lean due to the upper harness attached to the outside of the limbs?

By attaching the cables to the cam instead of the end of the limbs there is less chance of cam lean. It's not only done by Bowtech.

Also,Binary cam bowshave 2 seperate cables not 1 continuous cable like the cam1.5 and the single cam. I'm not sure where you got the idea that they have 1 continuous cable? By slaving the cams together using the 2 cables both binaries turn together and eliminate timing issues.
So you feel that attaching a single cable end to a single side of a cam will help eliminate the way it leans more so than a dual cam setup with a split harness that is attached to BOTH sides? Keep in mind a true dual cam system has the cable attached directly to the axle that cam sits on and can be tweaked for cam lean at static and full draw by adding/taking away twists from side to side...........

How so? Expand on this for us..........

I have personally owned 3x binary cam bows and have tuned at least 50 others literally. I know how they are cabled quite well. I never stated they had one continuous cable, but if you add the two together you have significantly more cabling than a single cam. My statement wasn't to show that the single cam was superior to a binary or cam.5 or dually because of shorter overall cable lengths, it was to show that the statement "a more consistent shooting system without the 100" of string to constantly stretch and creep on ya" is not accurate. ;)

ArrowMike 07-30-2007 08:00 PM
RE: Preferences..single or dual cam?
 
ORIGINAL: davepjr71

Typical cam bows that use the split yoke have problems with cam lean due to the upper harness attached to the outside of the limbs? Split yokes make it easy to fix cam lean.

By attaching the cables to the cam instead of the end of the limbs there is less chance of cam lean. It's not only done by Bowtech.False: It makes it harder to take out cam lean.

Also,Binary cam bowshave 2 seperate cables not 1 continuous cable like the cam1.5 and the single cam. I'm not sure where you got the idea that they have 1 continuous cable? By slaving the cams together using the 2 cables both binaries turn together and eliminate timing issues.Cam & 1/2 uses 2 cables,controle and buss.

TFOX 07-30-2007 08:02 PM
RE: Preferences..single or dual cam?
 
ORIGINAL: davepjr71

Isn't that the Hoyt's that use the shoot through string systems to fix the cam lean problems?;););)

I don't believe that is required for the binary cam bows.

Also, I beleive I actually anwsered the question that was asked. I didn't name bows until the commetns started.

NO,Martin has a shoot through system but not Hoyt.They do have a shoot through riser.;)


When a cam 1/2 has lean,you just adjust the lean out.

When a binary has lean,you need new limbs.[8D]

And for the record,Hoyt uses a power cable and a controll cable.Neither of which is anywhere near 100"s


Yea,this should get good.

Germ 07-30-2007 08:02 PM
RE: Preferences..single or dual cam?
 
My old Hoyt with command cams does not have any timing issues. Strings and cables are way better now. I still like single cams though. I have had winners choice on my ROSS with 0 creep in two years;)

No design is "better" these days IMO. Put a good set of stings and cables in them and they all work great.

davepjr71 07-30-2007 08:04 PM
RE: Preferences..single or dual cam?
 
By moving the cables to the cams and placing as close to center as possible the cams will pull straight down on the cam. By shaping the cam in a certain way this will also aid in making sure the cam turns straight over without cam lean. You'll have to read the literature from Ross and Bowtech if you want a more technical explanation since I didn't create the design just understand what they've done and why it is a smart idea.

Why use a band-aid system of tweaking cables sides and such when it is not required with a proper design?

Each cable on my Allegiance is only 38" long. That adds up to only 76" of cable. That's not significantlymore than just about any bow.All cables cross twice on most compounds whether you have 1 continuous cable or 2. Therefore, I'm not sure how you determined that there is significantly more length? Is there design on a single cam bow that just has 1 cable between both the idler and the cam with out crossing back down?

davepjr71 07-30-2007 08:06 PM
RE: Preferences..single or dual cam?
 
ORIGINAL: TFOX

ORIGINAL: davepjr71

Isn't that the Hoyt's that use the shoot through string systems to fix the cam lean problems?;););)

I don't believe that is required for the binary cam bows.

Also, I beleive I actually anwsered the question that was asked. I didn't name bows until the commetns started.

NO,Martin has a shoot through system but not Hoyt.They do have a shoot through riser.;)


When a cam 1/2 has lean,you just adjust the lean out.

When a binary has lean,you need new limbs.[8D]

And for the record,Hoyt uses a power cable and a controll cable.Neither of which is anywhere near 100"s


Yea,this should get good.


TFOX,

Don't people buy split harness systems for Hoyts? I could have sworn I saw one with my own eyes at the range and on this site.

Yeah, this should be good!!! I figured I'd say that since that seems to be the going term with you guys.

Germ 07-30-2007 08:07 PM
RE: Preferences..single or dual cam?
 
Hoyt made a single cam with dual idler wheel. It had two cables.

davepjr71 07-30-2007 08:09 PM
RE: Preferences..single or dual cam?
 
ORIGINAL: Germ

Hoyt made a single cam with dual idler wheel. It had two cables.
Germ,

They made the single cam in the mid 90's right? I saw one in 1 of the old Bowhunter magazines I have.

ArrowMike 07-30-2007 08:10 PM
RE: Preferences..single or dual cam?
 
Where does cam lean come from? The cam? Think about it.

ArrowMike 07-30-2007 08:13 PM
RE: Preferences..single or dual cam?
 
ORIGINAL: Germ

Hoyt made a single cam with dual idler wheel. It had two cables.
I have never seen that.You have to post a photo.

Rick James 07-30-2007 08:40 PM
RE: Preferences..single or dual cam?
 
ORIGINAL: davepjr71

You'll have to read the literature from Ross and Bowtech if you want a more technical explanation since I didn't create the design just understand what they've done and why it is a smart idea.
Ross doesn't make a slaved "binary" bow. To my knowledge the bows using this design or ones close to it with a slaved cam include Bowtech, Kodiak, Elite, Darton, High Country, and Alpine. Ross does not. Some have better solutions for cam lean than others. Bowtech's new binary on the guardian and Dartons floating yoke on their pro series bows that is attached to both sides of the cam with dual take up tracks are at the top of the pack here though in my opinion only.

ORIGINAL: davepjr71

Why use a band-aid system of tweaking cables sides and such when it is not required with a proper design?
Because a manufacturing process that allows for 100% or probably even 90% of bows to have cam bushings and limb holes manufactured with tight enough tolerances for 0 cam lean with no way to adjust for it is way too expensive for bow manufacturers. I would venture to say that not a single one of them has these types of tolerance specs today to accomplish even 95% of their production to achieve true 0 cam lean off the production line. Add in a cable guard that is epoxied in place (or allen screw) that wrenches everything over in a different spot on each bow (check the tolerances of cable guard positions on 10 identical model bows ;)) and now your perfectly machined cable track on that cam doesn't mean squat. I prefer the ability to tune perfectly for an absolutely true 0 cam lean using a harness......this is the only way I am guaranteed to have 0 cam lean. That's like saying why have a way to adjust the alignment on your car.......it should be manufactured that way and if not ability to adjust for it is a bandaid.


ORIGINAL: davepjr71

Each cable on my Allegiance is only 38" long. That adds up to only 76" of cable. That's not significantlymore than just about any bow.All cables cross twice on most compounds whether you have 1 continuous cable or 2. Therefore, I'm not sure how you determined that there is significantly more length? Is there design on a single cam bow that just has 1 cable between both the idler and the cam with out crossing back down?
To give you an idea.......on a Switchback XT string length is 87 3/4", cable is 33 1/2". Overall combined string/cable length that is under load is a moot point.......even if the single cams had more overall length of string/cable then it would be spreading the load over more length and reduces overall load on each........thus reducing chances for creep. This is why dual cam shoot through systems pretty much never go out of time.......4x cables and a string to spread the load over.

ORIGINAL: Germ

No design is "better" these days IMO. Put a good set of stings and cables in them and they all work great.
Best piece of advice on here yet.........

With that said, assuming quality string/cables and a good tune they all will accomplish the same thing. If you prefer to associate yourself with one type or another then that is cool, just don't use bad info to poke holes in the others..........

Germ 07-30-2007 08:49 PM
RE: Preferences..single or dual cam?
 
ORIGINAL: davepjr71

ORIGINAL: Germ

Hoyt made a single cam with dual idler wheel. It had two cables.
Germ,

They made the single cam in the mid 90's right? I saw one in 1 of the old Bowhunter magazines I have.
I bought it in 2002 it only came out for 1 year(I think). In 2003 1.5 cams came out.

Matt/TN 07-30-2007 08:50 PM
RE: Preferences..single or dual cam?
 
Good strings and cables will prevent alot of problems and hassle in the long run. As far as cam lean on a single cam bow, I know my Ross doesn't have any, nor have I heard of any other Ross's having cam lean issues. Most of the cam lean issues I have seen come in the shop were either on the older Bowtechs, or the OLD dual cam bows, such as the PSE's, HCA's, etc.

TFOX 07-30-2007 08:56 PM
RE: Preferences..single or dual cam?
 
ORIGINAL: ArrowMike

ORIGINAL: Germ

Hoyt made a single cam with dual idler wheel. It had two cables.
I have never seen that.You have to post a photo.

It was in 2002,I am fairly sure and I loved the design but never owned one.I bought a cam 1/2 the next year.


Great design,vertical tracking,short cables and strings.

Rick James 07-30-2007 08:58 PM
RE: Preferences..single or dual cam?
 
ORIGINAL: Rick James

even if the single cams had more overall length of string/cable then it would be spreading the load over more length and reduces overall load on each........thus reducing chances for creep. This is why dual cam shoot through systems pretty much never go out of time.......4x cables and a string to spread the load over.
Actually my thinking here is flawed........on a single cam since the string is a continuous length the load would not be evenly spread like on a shoot through.......so I guess technically it would not be the same as a bow that has equal combined lengths in more sections. My apologies for the misinformation.

Germ 07-30-2007 08:59 PM
RE: Preferences..single or dual cam?
 
Ok here is ok Picture. Mine is in the in the shed. I am too lazy to get it.

I bought(Pro formed) in 2002 UltraTec with Excel cam.

4cam options

Redline(single)
Versa(single)
Excel(single)
Command(Dual)

BigJ71 07-30-2007 10:22 PM
RE: Preferences..single or dual cam?
 
ORIGINAL: Cougars09

Good strings and cables will prevent alot of problems and hassle in the long run. As far as cam lean on a single cam bow, I know my Ross doesn't have any, nor have I heard of any other Ross's having cam lean issues. Most of the cam lean issues I have seen come in the shop were either on the older Bowtechs, or the OLD dual cam bows, such as the PSE's, HCA's, etc.
This is not entirely true. Yes good string and cable will prevent creep but all cams/wheels are susceptible to lean. The first thing I did when I bought my Ross CR334 was check for idler wheel lean...sure enough it was off. I twisted the proper buss cable yoke end and viola perfect.

Remember that even that does not assure no lean as the dynamics of the cam/wheel and the pressures against it by the cable guard pulling the cables aside during the draw and at full draw can and do change.

All that being said, I prefer single cam bows. I feel they are more forgiving to tune and tend to stay tuned longer. Even the best of strings can creep in severe climate changes. I think a single cam set up will be more forgiving than a dual, hybrid or binary set up would be....just my.02

Redneck Bowhunter 07-31-2007 01:38 AM
RE: Preferences..single or dual cam?
 
Just a question: how do you check for cam/idler wheel lean? And, does it only happen to the top cam/idler wheel?

davepjr71 07-31-2007 04:42 AM
RE: Preferences..single or dual cam?
 
ORIGINAL: Rick James

ORIGINAL: davepjr71

You'll have to read the literature from Ross and Bowtech if you want a more technical explanation since I didn't create the design just understand what they've done and why it is a smart idea.
Ross doesn't make a slaved "binary" bow. To my knowledge the bows using this design or ones close to it with a slaved cam include Bowtech, Kodiak, Elite, Darton, High Country, and Alpine. Ross does not. Some have better solutions for cam lean than others. Bowtech's new binary on the guardian and Dartons floating yoke on their pro series bows that is attached to both sides of the cam with dual take up tracks are at the top of the pack here though in my opinion only.

ORIGINAL: davepjr71

Why use a band-aid system of tweaking cables sides and such when it is not required with a proper design?
Because a manufacturing process that allows for 100% or probably even 90% of bows to have cam bushings and limb holes manufactured with tight enough tolerances for 0 cam lean with no way to adjust for it is way too expensive for bow manufacturers. I would venture to say that not a single one of them has these types of tolerance specs today to accomplish even 95% of their production to achieve true 0 cam lean off the production line. Add in a cable guard that is epoxied in place (or allen screw) that wrenches everything over in a different spot on each bow (check the tolerances of cable guard positions on 10 identical model bows ;)) and now your perfectly machined cable track on that cam doesn't mean squat. I prefer the ability to tune perfectly for an absolutely true 0 cam lean using a harness......this is the only way I am guaranteed to have 0 cam lean. That's like saying why have a way to adjust the alignment on your car.......it should be manufactured that way and if not ability to adjust for it is a bandaid.


ORIGINAL: davepjr71

Each cable on my Allegiance is only 38" long. That adds up to only 76" of cable. That's not significantlymore than just about any bow.All cables cross twice on most compounds whether you have 1 continuous cable or 2. Therefore, I'm not sure how you determined that there is significantly more length? Is there design on a single cam bow that just has 1 cable between both the idler and the cam with out crossing back down?
To give you an idea.......on a Switchback XT string length is 87 3/4", cable is 33 1/2". Overall combined string/cable length that is under load is a moot point.......even if the single cams had more overall length of string/cable then it would be spreading the load over more length and reduces overall load on each........thus reducing chances for creep. This is why dual cam shoot through systems pretty much never go out of time.......4x cables and a string to spread the load over.

ORIGINAL: Germ

No design is "better" these days IMO. Put a good set of stings and cables in them and they all work great.
Best piece of advice on here yet.........

With that said, assuming quality string/cables and a good tune they all will accomplish the same thing. If you prefer to associate yourself with one type or another then that is cool, just don't use bad info to poke holes in the others..........
I was thinking of the High Country. My apologies for being wrong on that.

You stated that the binaries have way more cables in ojne of your posts. However, you then state that string and cable the are about the same.

Bowtech will replace the limbs or cams if the bows have any cam lean. Most cable guard rods are fixed position now. I'm not sure why you think they all wrench over in a different position like they were in the past? The only way they could be different is if you replace the stock cable guard slide.

You start talking about single cam spreading the load and then jump to dual cams. You're all over the map. The binary cams are also slaved together and the load is spread evenly over both cables and the string. My marks on my cams haven't moved at all since I bought the bow and are still in sync.;)

I'm not associating with any particular thing or person. Furthermore, please don't start telling me what to do on here. It's getting old with the people who seem to act like mods. If you disagree then state your opinions without calling me out. :D

davepjr71 07-31-2007 04:47 AM
RE: Preferences..single or dual cam?
 
ORIGINAL: Germ

ORIGINAL: davepjr71

ORIGINAL: Germ

Hoyt made a single cam with dual idler wheel. It had two cables.
Germ,

They made the single cam in the mid 90's right? I saw one in 1 of the old Bowhunter magazines I have.
I bought it in 2002 it only came out for 1 year(I think). In 2003 1.5 cams came out.
The single cam I was thinking of does not have the duel idlers. It was manufactured in 1999 for sure. I forgot to write down the model after I found it last year.

MDBUCKHUNTER 07-31-2007 08:00 AM
RE: Preferences..single or dual cam?
 
In reading all of this……I truly don’t think that one bow is any better than any other when you are dealing with the top three bow manufacturers (Mathews, Bowtech and Hoyt). They all have their own designs. All designs are made to be easily tunable. It is a fact of life that cams lean, limbs twist and strings and cables need to be replaced often. With that all said, I have no idea where that post is going other than to try to prove that one person is wrong vs. another.

I think bow design is all about personal preference. Either you like it or not. No one can tell you otherwise. I prefer single cam. I am a Mathews guy.


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