RE: Total inches?
 

That sounds good in theory but that isn't true all the time either. How would it be explained that there are "mountain" bucks killed her in PA every year that go up into the 140" and 150" range. Pennsylvania isn't known for having great buck genetics and they sure as heck don't have good nutrition in the area considering there are little to no farm lands in the area.

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Buck:

The absence of farms doesn't necessarily mean an absence of good nutrition. Why would you try to make crop fields out of mountainous terrain?

I think (though I won't speak for the author of that statement) he was speaking "in general". I'm sure IL has small, inferior gened bucks, too.....though the probability of the opposite is more likely. The fertlity and nutrient content of the midwest soil isnot up for debate. It's fact.

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I know what you are sayin BM.... Any "location" can and will produce large racked bucks even if the soil is acidic and of poor quality. You don't have to have Iowa dirt to grow big bucks.

Although watchout you are now speaking to a brick wall that reads what he wants andnot what was written and knows EVERY thing about whitetails because he read in on the internet.... You will get no where and I caution you to tread lightly before you get stalked by him :D

Kidding???? No, not really ;)

RE: Total inches?
 

PA was never considered to have good genetics because so few deer ever got to reach an age where they could show thier true genetics. Imagine those 140-150" bucks with some ag crops...they'd go 160-170" I'd say they had incredible genetics.

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O my, where to start :D

Very true, but it does generally mean that there isn't a constant food source providing good nutrition for the deer. Sure, there are some oaks that produce a good mast crop, but they don't drop acorns all year long so the deer browse pretty much the rest of the year. This browse doesn't regenerate at the rate the deer eat it so I would say its pretty safe to say that there is a lack of good nutrition in general.

Thats exactly what I am talking about Scott. Any location can and will produce large racked whitetail deer. Yes, nutrition and genetics are definetly part of the equation but overall genetics and nutrition mean squat when the deer aren't living to the age of maturity. This isn't something that can be fixed over night either, it takes years of consistant and constant management to turn a out of balance deer herd into a "trophy" herd. You can pass all the 1-1/2 year old bucks you want for several years and still not see a major differance in antler size. That is simply because it takes time for the management to work through to where the bucks are growing trophy antlers. This can be achieved EVERYWHERE, heck, there are places in Florida producing 150"-160" whitetail bucks, to think it can't be done everywhere is crazy.


Okay, I found this particularly amussing. I'm sorry GMMAT, but to cast Buckeye's knowledge of hunting mature whitetails off as something that everybody can achieve easily is simply crazy. It doesn't matter what part of the country you are from, consistantly harvesting mature bucks takes skill and a special knowledge of the herd that can't be read off the internet or found in any magazine or book. There are some guys on here that consistantly bag mature bucks, KCISON, GregH, MOTOWN, Rybo, ect.. these guys didn't aquire the knowledge it takes to harvest these deer from a magazine, it took years of hard work and pure dedication.

Very true Rybo, but if these bucks had the genetics that some areas provide (which can and is currently being worked on) that some other areas like Iowa, Kansas, Illinois, Canada, ect.. those same 160"-170" bucks could be 190"-200" bucks.

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I really don't think the deer in PA would grow any bigger racks if they were anywhere else - particularly in the Ohio River watershed... Western Pennsylvania supports some of the most diverse and nutrient-rich whitetail habitat on the planet. I've got rolls and rolls of film of 2.5 year old bucks thatare absolutely gorgeous by anyone's standards - allbefore they've ever even celebrated their third birthdays...

The genetics of PA whitetails trace their lineage back to the early 1900's, when the deer population was abyssmally low, and whitetails were reintroduced in the form of "stocked" Canadian and midwestern whitetails. So, the genes of the deer we're shooting are probably a 99.999% match to those shot in Saskatchewan and/or Pike County. Most people wouldn't say that those deer come from "bad" bloodlines...

Our problem isn't genetics at all. It's hunting pressure. Our deer aren't growing big racks because we're killing them before they have a chance to.

PA hunters are a victim of our own circumstance - too many people. I know what we put up with on a daily basis, and I hear some of you midwestern guys say "we need to get more people into hunting" - trust me - be careful what you wish for...

RE: Total inches?
 

Why don't you two chickens just meet and have it out once and for all??

RE: Total inches?
 

You bring up a good point, yes, parts of Pennsylvania (especially where you and I are located) have great habitat for deer with ample amounts of nutrition for the deer. Honestly though, if the genetics are equal, and we have the amazing nutrition that these areas do, then that would mean it must be an "age" thing...but that wouldn't explain why an average Pennsylvania whitetail will generally score less than an average Canadian or Illinois/Kansas/Iowa whitetail of the same age. That makes me wonder just how much hunting pressure could affect antler development. I wonder if the stress of having 1 million plus hunters in the woods of a smaller state each year can have adverse effects on antler growth.

No, that sounds more like luck to me than anything else.

Okay, where to start with this one.

Not making light ofScott's accomplishments? You are implying that the reason he consistantly kills large bucks is simply because of location! How is that not down playing his accomplishments? Yes, Ohio is know to grow big bucks, but that doesn't mean that every patch of woods in Ohio has a few booners running around. Granted, Scott's property may hold more large racked bucks than other peoples properties, but that can't be cast off as just a "natural" thing. This is due to the fact that he practices management and he puts in hours of work afield each year to make it that way. Let a group of PA rifle hunters hunt that same property for a few years and guess what, it won't be producing the bucks that it does now. Why? Because they would be doing what they do on their property, shooting every and any buck that walks by and this will have an effect on the herd.

As far as location goes? Like I mentioned in my above posts, location has very little to do with the overall picture. ANY property across the nation could produce large bucks, it just takes time, patience, and dedication to get it to that point. Practicing QDMA and managing the habitat while waiting to shoot true mature bucks can take a piece of property from a field of spikes to a field of dreams. Proof is everywhere, look back through some of my game camera pictures over the past several years. I have photos of numerous large bucks that were all taken in Pennsylvania. The number of and size of bucks that I have got on camera hasn't always been present around here. Sure, the statewide antler restrictions and herd management have helped, but its more the fact that we have put time, money, and effort into the land and deer herd to get it this way. The hours and dollars spent planting food plots, the money spent putting in a supplemental feeding program throughout the year (with the exception of hunting season), the endless amount of immature bucks that have been passed up have all helped to turn the property and herd to the point it is now. You can pass this off as being lucky or what have you, but info on exactly how to manage MY property is something that can't be found in any book/magazine or on the internet. It takes atrue knowledge of the property and the herd todo this, and this is something that is aquired through YEARS ofactually getting out in the woods and scouting and doing the dirty work. You can make the same comments about me as you do aboutScott, but the fact is that not you, not anybody can come to my property having never been here and know the ins and outs of it. Sure, you could come over and hang a stand and maybe have a chance at a deer, but without the true knowledge that is aquired over years you wouldn't be able to do it year in and year out. Some things have to belearned over years, and they can't be learned over night.

As far as the others that post slammers every year, that is why I use the"ect.", I didn't feel like going through and mentioning every single one of these seasoned veterans that have figured out the who puzzle throughyears of experience.

As far as the "bozos on t.v." there is a little differance between hunting your own property and hunting a fenced ranch or an outfitter where mutiple people are paid to do nothing but study the deer and their patterns every single day. Sure, the hunters on those shows may not know a single thing about deer hunting, but the guides have spent years learning the deer, so that pretty much explains why the hunters are shooting the deer. It has little to do with location, it has everything to do with the fact that they are getting directed by people who have a true and thorough knowledge of the herd on that property.

RE: Total inches?
 

Well let's see, I've probably shot somewhere around 60 bucks with a bow. You do the math. 50 x 60 LOL I couldn't really put an inch total on it... but it's more than 900.[8D]

RE: Total inches?
 

PERSONAL ATTACKS WILL NOT BE TOLERATED!

Consider this the warning!

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Yes dave, but you also hunted with the pilgrims didnt you?:D

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If you guys want to call each other names go to the political forum ,over there the mods even do it. ;)

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And poof they are gone. lmao

RE: Total inches?
 

Buck Magnet:

No I'm not. I'm making a statement that ruffles feathers.....but I'm not making light of his accomplishments. I'm sure he's a dedicated hunter.
How is this different than what I do? What my bow shop owner does? What a LOT of guys on this board that dont shoot big deer do?

It isn't. The difference is......location. That is ALL I've been saying. Everything you say he does.....I do...and so does a LOT of people on this and other forums. I'm gonna raise the average of the bucks here over the next few years (as Scott has likely done).....but they'll never be as big as the ones in OH. ALL I've been saying is......people work JUST as hard at this as people in the big buck states......but the public perception is.....the gusy shooting the big bucks are better hunters. Theres NO difference in the hunters' abilities.....save ONE.......location. How can you argue this?
I don't pass that off as anything. I commend you on your efforts. But....why can't the information be found in magazines or on the internet. And...what was your point? I've been in contact with my wildlife bio. I supplemental feed year round. I planted a food plot. I attended a QDMA seminar. I'm not sure how many years I'd need to do this to be "experienced".
So don't you find it HIGHLY arrogant that people will sit....states away....and tell me they know things about my woods....better than me? I find it insulting.

You guys are trying to read WAY more into what Ive been saying. ALL I'm saying is.....the difference between what Scott kills and what oh.....HuntingEd kills is.....location. If you don't agree with this.....you have to assume that Scott's simply working harder than everyone who doesn't kill a deer as big as the ones he kills.....and I just don't believe that.

RE: Total inches?
 

1. I don't think we know what the "average" potential for a buck is in PA. Just not enough live that long. Factor in the wide slot in which fawns are born and you even further set that back cause even a genetic wonder born in the beginning of july is going to take a while(3 years)to recover and even out (or surpass) bucks of his same age class.
2. Habitat across this state varies WIDELY. A buck living in the rich farmland is going to bemore well fedthan a buck living in a stand of mature timber. THe timber whitetail is not going to reach his potential due to the availabity of food.
3. Factor in the skewed buck to doe ratio and poor age structure where many 1.5 get to breed rather than save that energy towards growing...adn again, they need longer to reach thier potential.
4. I'd also like to see the average age of a "big" buck taken in PA vs the places you mentioned. Remember to 90% of the people in PA a 2 1/2 year old buck is a monster.

Bottom line is that PA is a complete unknown as far as potential of growing huge bucks goes. I think far too few places have the combination of food AND age AND herd structure to allow the genetics to really show thru.

RE: Total inches?
 

Illinois trophy hunter Marc Anthony's Top 6 bucks average a gross of 170" !!! [:-]

This is an expert, he doesn't just play one on the Net! ;):)

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Wheres he from??? Ain't that a coincidence!!?

;)

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This couldn't be put more accurately. Well said.

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LOL! Just trying to get this thread back on the right track. :D

RE: Total inches?
 

People just don't realize how much location plays a part in all this. For example, take New York, the state I now live in and was born and raised in. Here's the record New York deer with the bow. Shot in 1999 and scores right at 180. It's tough to average 170 when they don't exist but once every 8 or 9 years.[8D] Being an expert on big bucks is totally controlled by the land you have or most often, DON'T HAVE, to hunt. I've been glassing deer for weeks. I get all excited when I see something out to the ears with more than 4 or 6 points. So far I have one 8 point pegged. He hangs out a good quarter mile from my hunting ground.:(

http://www.nys-big-buck.org/at.htm

RE: Total inches?
 

No doubt, location, location, location is key for bettering your odds of taking trophy bucks, especially a collection of them. The handful of folks that I know of who have cracked that coveted 900"benchmark have traveled to several states in search of this quest. IL, KS, IA, WI, OH, MO, SKS, ALB.... legendary deer country. I'll admit I wouldn't be spending my money traveling to areas of the whitetails range where theyrarely if everexist. It seems that most, who are truly addicted to the pursuit of monster bucks, would choose to pursue the creatures in the absolute best habitat they could find and not limit themselves to simply one loaction down the road. Learning how to hunt differenet regions/areas/habitats also serves in the making of an "expert" bowhunter, imho.

RE: Total inches?
 

Gone for awhile and I have alot of catching up to do :D

Okay, your going to do what Scott has been doing, your going to raise the quality of the deer on you land and I commend you for that. As far as them never being as good as the bucks Scott see's out in Ohio...thats not the attitude to have, your land could very well be as good as any land out there. Hard work, dedication, and knowledge of the herd are what will get your property to that point! You said that you are planting food plots, helping balance the herd, passing younger bucks, and getting the age structure set up. It seems like your going to correct the three major elements that it takes to grow trophy bucks, age (by passing immature deer, which will also help with the genetics), and the nutrition will be taken care of with the food plots. Your land is just that, land, it doesn't matter what state it is in, all that matters is that you get all of the ingredients together and it will produce trophy deer. Now here is the point that I am trying to drive home, after all that work do you honestly feel that you will just be another "average Joe" hunter who gets big bucks simply because of your land? I bet not, you will be proud of all the hard work and dedication that it took, and the knowledge that you gain throughout the entire experience will make you a hunter who stands out.

I can read anything and everything about food plots, land management, and herd management ect.. on the internet and in books and magazines, but the fact is that isn't a fool proof guide for "my" property. It is simply a tool. I could read a book or magazine that stresses about the importance of food plots for the summer and fall, but that wouldn't mean squat when there are hundreds of acres of corn, alfalfa, clover, and soybeans for them to feed at that time. Each property has different needs that can't be fully explained on the net.

I'm not telling you that I know your woods, what I am saying is that ANY piece of property in this country could be turned into a good property that regularly produces large bucks.

I'm not saying that Scott is some super hunter, but you do have to give him credit for being able to consistantly put mature bucks on the ground. One thing that could be said in your "HuntingEd vs. Scott" scenario is that Scott has been able to put more effort and achieve more results with the management plan that he has set up.


I just want to make it clear that I am nottrying to attack you,actually I have rather enjoyed this entire conversation and everything that has been said. I am simply stating that blamming a bucks antlers onlocation can give a skewed perception that it only has to do with the state that you live in. Gaining the knowledge that it takes to correct that and turn the property into a premium hunting ground is something that can't simply be cast off.

Well, I'm off to the bar for a few beers, peace out boyscouts :D

RE: Total inches?
 

BM....I've enjoyed the conversation, too.

I mean no disrespect to Scott. I'm gonna let it go....because it seems so apparent to me.

Two guys do the same things.....Scott...and "Bill". They have the same desire.....the same means.....the same knowledge. Scott lives in OH.....Bill lives in Islamorada. What will be the greatest influence on who consistently kills P&Y bucks?

RE: Total inches?
 

And just think, 25 years ago He only needed 2 of those Bucks to be the Key speaker at any Bowhunter Rendezvous in the Country, today most Bowhunters dont know who he is! ;):D

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BM,

You're either in love or you're President of Scott's fanclub! [&:]LOL! :D

I had no idea that he was such an incredible hunter? All these years I've been looking up to the wrong folks as mentors to true Midwest trophy hunting. Imagine, all this time a 20-something who's already a bowhunting legend (in his own mind;))! LOL! :D

All kidding aside, I'm not taking sides here at all but I seriously doubt that Buckeye is any better of a whitetail hunter than Gmmat. In fact, as far as the average animals he's tagged in OH I wouldn't suggest that he is anymore successful than ANYONE on this board from any region. The guy knows hisregionis loaded with mature bucks but would shoot the first low end 3 year old booker he could get a shot at.... that fact alone doesn't seem like the skills and choices of an "expert" in my mind.... especially in a state that seriously limits the number of animals you can take per season! There certainly aren't any hunting legends here..... they have better things to do than bicker with folks on the web. :(:D

Have you guys seen that Gorilla treestand commercial where the hunter is sitting up in his stand thumping his chest...... that'sthe soundI hear when I read half these posts! [:'(]:(

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IL-Cornfed



Have you neversaw anyone sticking up for their buddy before?

Bowhunting legend in my own mind???? Please you know nothing about me.

140 inches is a lowend buck eh:D? When I grow up I want to be just like you. My largest continuous localfarm is 125 acres with30 acres of woods. I mostly hunt public ground so I have room to move arounda bit. A"low end" 3.5 is perfectly acceptable to me. I work hard for what I shoot and could care less what you think about it.

With all your expert advice and downgrading of peoples choices I don't recall you shooting a buck since I joined this board, I have saw some old photos but nothing recent.

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RE: Total inches?
 

I don't think Scott expects...or WANTS, for that matter, to be looked up to as a mentor by anybody.....I will give him a hell of a lot of credit though for working his tail off for the bucks he shoots. Is he the best hunter there is? Certainly not, but then again.......is there such a thing? I would use several things to describe him, but a self proclaimed bowhunting legend, arrogant, or a know it all certainly aren't any of them....He is a knowledgeable hunter, no doubt about that, but in my mind what makes him even "smarter" is the fact that he realizes he isn't as good as he can be, and he questions almost everything. He is a student of the sport, if you will.

I believe what he gets upset about is the philosophy that location is EVERYTHING.....Maybe the public views it that way, and maybe to some extent it's true....But in his case, he works hard to LOCATE them in the first place, then hunt them smart and he WILL smack one....

This is why corporate hunting ticks me off so badly....It's become a business, and it's no longer a leisure activity. EVERYONE looks to the guy that shoots monsters year in and year out........TV (horn porn, I call it) has brainwashed folks into believing you MUST kill a book buck to be worthy of being called a hunter. WHATEVER!

I give Scott a hell of a lot of credit. Granted, I know him better than most folks on this forum, so I don't mean he's the only one who does this, but he works damn hard for what he gets. I have a tremendous amount of respect for him, because while he's good at it, he's also got a level head about him in that he knows he has lots to learn, and he's not the end all of buck hunters....He is always willing, in fact he ENJOYS, sharing what he knows and has learned. He takes an aweful lot of pride in his ethics (both work and play) and IMO that's what makes a successful hunter..........

RE: Total inches?
 

Alright boys, after reading most of the 7 pages, I had to add up my numbers for the heck of it. Keep in mind I've been hunting since 2000, which this will make my seventh year. No buck in 2005.

6 bucks : 173 / 157 / 180 / 143 / 127 / 126 = 906 gross inches / 151 average.

RE: Total inches?
 

Nice Job kelly!!! That is quite an accomplishment.

RE: Total inches?
 

mobo...

I still can't understand why abyone misconstrued what i said....

I'll grant you this....

My original premise (in the "location" thread) was ....you take two guys doing the same things scott does.......and put one in OH and one in FL......what's the determining factor (No. 1) as to who's gonna kill more big bucks? Everything else equal.

Everybody turned this into something it wasn't.

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I'm simply stating that I don't agree. I don't think location has as much to do w/ it as plain old fashioned hard work.....Why do you keep turning this into "I'm right, and those that don't agree aren't"....?

You're 100% entitled to your opinion, but that don't make it scientific fact.....Nor is mine. It doesn't even make you wrong....nor me. I'm not at all sure what it was turned into, because quite honestly I didn't really follow it very closely.

RE: Total inches?
 

That is an Impressive bunch of Bucks in such a short time, way to go kelly!
Hay just think what your average will be when you cullone of those runts this year! :DIll be down that way the last 10 days befor Rifle season, mom will be 82 on the 13th and it will give me a chance at another Kentucky wall hanger!

RE: Total inches?
 

If nothing else is gain from this thread... we nowknow you mustproof read 1/2 ofyour ownposts and most likely not justfor spelling errors. ;):D


Gmmat

Since we don't know your area, I am curious. I get the impression from your posts that 3.5 years old is it for bucks that you've seenin your area and no one knows your area like you do. What happened to the older mature bucks??Are they over hunted??I wouldn't think theymagically die from old age after 3.5 years old so there should be a few 4.5, 5.5 and so forth come hunting season. To me... a 3.5 year old buck isn't a mature buck but that hardly matters. Just curious as to what happened to your older bucks??? We don't have your deer numbers but I can find bucks older then 3.5 years old here especially in a low hunting pressured area which most ofour areaisn't. QDM means nothing to most here. I wouldn't think it is just a location type dealso enlighten me please on your area.

Just a side note... Sorryitbothers youthat most's perspective of agood buck hunter revolves around the size of the racks they've taken. Some of us do think otherwise.I've gotten to know a guy from NC and another from SC who probablycould out hunt most of us here. Whileyou would only need 3 fingers to count theirP&Y,I wished I know halfof what they have forgotten over the years.

Tim

RE: Total inches?
 

TJF:

I've got game cam photos of 1 buck that's at least 4.5, now. I saw him in '05 at the distance of about 2 yds. He had a nice 8 point rack, then....and he sncuk up on me like a cat. I had him at 0 yds on two occasions last year.....and at 20 yds on closing day. I already have him on game cam this year. He had a buddy he hung out with in the early season, last year.....and I think he was a 3.5 las year.

Yes.....3.5 and older are here. There "might" be mature deer here I've never seen. I never saw the 3.5 yr old I shot last year as a younger deer.....unless he did a LOT of antler growing in one season. I saw a half rack last year that might have been a 3.5. What happens to them all, though? Good question. I'm not the only hunter, here. I have neighbors who own an acre of land. ONE acre. They shot 2 10-pointers and 2 8-pointers last year. I know what happens to a few of them. if they knew of a large racked deer......no boundary line would stop them from killing him.....and no weapon restriction.....and maybe no season.

I can only do what I can do.

Nor to hunters, here. They all preach letting the little ones go......but what they do on their own farms when no one is looking......I've heard doesn't match what they preach.

It's a testament to where deer huntng is headed. 2 guys put the same efforts in......one guy is deemed to be a guru because of where he lives. QAM is driving that. There are guys here and everywhere who never had an opportunity to hunt big deer. They're viewed by many as not as good of hunters......but I know better.

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Sticking up for a buddy..... LOL, is that what you're calling it? Hey, atleast one person here thinks you're all that.... I bet he's like a lil' brother to ya? ;):D

It would seem that you waste far to much of your time trying to convince folks like GMMAT that you're an expert hunter. Give us a guys a break that do know ya. But it is the Net so you can be whomever you want to be here bud. It's your story, tell it like you want to. :)

So you hunt small farms..... who cares? Does that qualify you for expert status or does that mean that you really must have a ton of bucks in your area for no more property than you hunt? I'm not going to feel sorry for ya, it's pretty much the average sized property in many areas. I would like to see how easily many of the forum members here could kill deer on your properties? I don't have any reason to believe that theywould have to workextra hard? I mean come on....it's Ohio and if it's even slightly managed property,a 3 1/2 year old 140" gross buck that you chest thump aboutisn't rare that's for sure.

You question GMMAT's ability.... why? He seems to know just as much about whitetail as you do and perhaps even more about what it takes to manage property and make some changes. He's killed as manyy deer as we've seen from you plus he's tagged a buck as old as anything you've taken. Don't make tha fact that his buck doesn't score as well any less of an acomplishment, remember not all of us here are spoiled by living in a big buck hotspot! ;)

Are you serious about "my" bucks? I KNOW you've seen me around many different forums for a longtime so you should know better. You've seen the animals I've taken, including tha past couple seasons ofmuzzleloader killsand you should know that for the last couple seasons my hunters have taken some excellent bucks.... well by your standards, some awesome bucks! :)

I spend a great deal of time putting guys onto trophy class bucks and there are propbably a couple members on this forum that have hunted with me and had success.... especially on the caliber of animals that make you chest thump. I've also posted photos on some dandy bucks that we've passed on over the years..... again chest thumpers by your count. ;)

Even the kids that hunt with me seem to be able to get the job done as well as you can.... what's that saying? LOL!

My 11 year old Daughter's '06 buck. Realize that just one more of these guys and she'll have as many decent animals as YOUhave Buckeye! [:-]I wonder if that would make her an expert as well ? ;):D

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LOL you are a riot!

I have never implied that I am a great hunter... I have never tried to convince anyone that I am either.... The argument with gmmat is nothing even close to what you are speaking of. My "argument" with himwas there are nice bucks everywhere that whitetail live. If someone wants one bad enough they have to do what it takes to locate and set up on them. I agreed with him odds are better in the big bucks areas......


So to validate yourself now you want to talk about gun kills on the bowhunting forum :DI don't even own a gun bro....

If anyone is a chest thumper around here it is you and your never ending BS arrogance degrading people for what they choose to shoot. You were picking on a 16 year old kid here a week or so ago. Real cool man, real cool. You fit in a lot better over on AT with your arrogance.

How many mature bucks have I shot Cornfed? Since you think you know....

Better yet, I am not going to reply to you about this any more as I come to this site for enjoyment and I have not been enjoying myself lately. Say what you wish man.

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