Cougar Mag

Oh good Lord! What did you guys do before pin guards?

Arthur P

Shhhh! Don't disrupt their flow, Coug.[8D]

LATomkat, that's what Len's saying. You should set the sight up so your gang is centered in the housing.

Len, fer cryin' out loud, I'm more than 'somewhat' effective shooting barebow. And barebow is by far the best low light aiming method. I'm sure folks would REALLY come unglued if I suggested that people, with the proper set up, discipline and instruction, could learn to shoot quite accurately with no sights at all. And with a fingers release at that.

I guess I need to return all my NFAA 20 pins and bowhunter freestyle tournament trophies because I won them back when pin guards were against the rules, and there were no round pin guards even if they had been legal. No way I could've shot well enough to earn them without a round pin guard. [8D]

I do find it sort of interesting that average NFAA tournament scores haven't improved tremendously over the past 20 years, what with the new technologies and all. Especially now that the rule has been rescinded and shooters are allowed to use their round pin guards in the bowhunter freestyle classes. One would think otherwise if this new-fangled aiming method were really da bomb, wouldn't one...

Thanks for the instruction though. And now that even davidmil's busting my chops for being old-fashioned, I guess I'm finally and truly a crotchety old fart.[8D]

GMMAT

Nobody's suggesting your way hasn't been done....or isn't effective. All we're trying to say is....there's more than one way to skin a cat. The USGA records with the gutta percha ball are still valid, too...........and facemasks in the NFL have "caught on".

Arthur P

Okay, GMMAT, you kinda skimmed right over what I consider an important point and didn't even acknowledge it.

I'd like to hear your explanation of why the scores I shot in the 80's - with no pin guard at all - would put me in the top 5 in the NFAA outdoor nationals today. Distances haven't changed. Targets haven't changed. Some of the rules have even been relaxed to to allow updated equipment. I mean, if the technology and methods are so superior to the antiquated methods we used and the equipment we had to shoot with back then, wouldn't you expect a huge leap in average scores?

By the way, I am the one saying there's more than one way to skin this cat. You guys are saying round pin guards are THE way and everything else is obsolete or ridiculously inferior.

GMMAT

Arthur...don't put words in my mouth. I'm not the one that told you your way was all in your head.

I only suggested that there might be anothermethod than the one you employ (and a damned proficient group of archers has backed that suggestion up). I can't answer your question, though. I don't know enough about target archery or archery competition to speak intelligently about it. Maybe perfection can't be achieved? maybe the new methods allow "less" skilled archers to excel? Maybe you're awesome?

We're playing on the same football field we played on since the game began.....and the record for a field goal was only "matched" a few years ago.....and only once. Are the athletes not getting bigger, stronger? Aren't the kicking techniques getting better?

The peep/sight ring method HAS made me a better archer. Would it make you a better archer? Not if you don't think it's a viable technique. Who knows what you might have been capable of?

txjourneyman

This thread is making me very grateful I have shot nothing but my recurve for the past 2 weeks. The only aiming is eyeball down the shaft! And I'm shooting it quite well!

Len in Maryland

Arthur P:

With all due respect to your trophies and capabilities with 'antique' equipment, I'm talking about 98% of the archery market - hunting! Back in the day, and take this from aCOF, I could hit things very well using a set of 6 or 8 pins in a squarecage and a peep that was just large enough to see each pin. I had a 10, 15, 20, 25, 30, 35, 40 and 45 yard pins at first. Then I slowly moved up to 60 yards and I thought I was on top of the world. Man those bows and arrows were slow.

There were two problems with this set-up. First, I had to constantly alter my anchor to get each pin centered in the peep. Second, the first time I tried to shoot in low light I couldn't see through the peep. As I opened up the peep for more light, my accuracy suffered relative to the size of the peep. You know darned well what I'm talking about.

I used to shoot recurves almost60 years ago and still like to shoot them to this day. They're fun! But, I wouldn't care to try to take deer-sizedgame with them beyond 20 yards with my limited time to practice with them. I don't care if it's low light and close yardage, I'd still take my personal equipment with my 7/32" diameter peep and 2" sight ring any day in a hunting scenario.

Leave it up to you to compare 'apples to oranges' and to try to equate tournament technique to hunting. If you keepconfusing these youngsters with misconfunctionalated (that's a new word) facts, we'll excommunicate you from the COF Club.

GMMAT

Len:

Would that make me a CMAF?

Arthur P

Well, GMMAT, since you don't know anything about field archery, there's no basis for you to understand what I'm trying to say.

Some background on the game... You shoot 4 arrows at each of 28 paper targets on butts set along a trail, marked distances from 20 feet to 80 yards, and everything in between. Even yardages, odd yardages, and depending on the course, uphill, downhill or even sidehill. Most of your shots will be between 20 and 60 yards, so you've got the 5 pins you're allowed in bowhunter freestyle class set at even 10 yard increments from 20 to 60.

If you've never been shown how to do it, you wouldn't be able to imagine double stacking your pins in order to hit an 80 yard target. It's an adventure trying to hit a target when your 60 yard pin is actually aiming at an imaginary point in a clear blue sky. Or, if you're lucky, you've managed to locate a leaf on a tall tree behind the target to aim at. All the while trying to allow for that @#$! ever present 25 mph crosswind....

And sometimes it works out that you come on that 80 yarder for the last target, after you've already shot 108 arrows for the day - not counting warmup and sight checks on the practice range - and you've still got these last 4 arrows to shoot to finish the round.

Guys who only shoot 30 arrows in a day's time at 40 yards max for 3D simply can't fathom it. You ain't never done any serious pin stacking until you've done a round of field archery....

You know, I've got the greatest respect for Len and the other fine archers who've responded. But I still can't see how centering a round pin guard would help one whit with putting the arrow where I want it. Maybe as an interim form check? I can visualize that, but not the final aiming. The pin is the aiming reference, not the guard. And I still say once you focus on that pin your eye is going to naturally center it up in your peep whether you will or nill.

That said, I've been feeling the need for some variety in my shooting lately and I've been playing with my sights for a few weeks. Now I've a notion to take off my multi-pin sight (rectangular pin guard) and put on my single pin slider. Might even go so far as try and locate a good sight bar and scope fairly cheap and maybe even a V-bar stabilizer rig. Haven't shot THAT way in a heckuva long time.

Edit:
Len, you're right. Hunting is 98% of the archery market these days. That's unfortunate. These youngsters are missing out on so much by not shooting tournaments. But I do not accept that tournament shooting is all that different from hunting. The goal in both is to put that arrow exactly where you want it. The only reason most of us ever shot tournaments was to help us be better shots in the woods. And it works.

I've also seen a lot of these youngsters struggling with trying to do things the proper and updated way. When I've shown them some of my old-fashioned techniques they immediately got it and the frustration was over with. As has been most forcibly shoved at ME through this thread, I'll give it right back.

One size does NOT fit all.

I have no desire to confuse anyone, but rather want to let them know that there really are different ways to do things and it's okay to experiment. And just because it's old fashioned does not mean it's not worth trying.

Rick James

Arthur,

Were your scores from the 80's shot on the same range under national competition pressure?

If not, you and I both know that comparison of equipment doesn't apply, too many other factors. Hell, last year my highest field score would have put me in the top 8 in PMFS class in Yankton NFAA Nationals beating Dietmar Trillus, George Ryals, and Dave Barnsdale. However if you would have put me on the same course on the same day under the same pressure, I am sure I would have gotten a spanking from those guys.

Apples and oranges unless the scores were shot the same day on the same course.

And for the record, a ton of great scores were turned in on the field course before pin guards were legal which does proveyour method does work. Of course one can be proficient with this method, and I won't argue that with you. With that said, I do think with the same amount of work and preperation that one can becomemeasurably more consistent centering the pin guard.