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-   -   Guardian cam lean - fact or fiction??? (https://www.huntingnet.com/forum/bowhunting/187451-guardian-cam-lean-fact-fiction.html)

Len in Maryland 04-07-2007 05:51 PM

Guardian cam lean - fact or fiction???
 
I'm baaaaaaaaccccckkkk. I was enjoying myself just lurking, but Davidmil insisted I come back like I promised. Since he was 'pardoned', I have tofulfill my promise to him. And it's blue in honor of the 'Blue Undies.'

Anyway, there is a thread now running titled "Who wins bow of the year?" There are referrals and pictures taken from another forum that does have an abundance of 'experts'. I'm afraid, however, that many of these experts have an agenda against BowTech and most of them are seeing an optical illusion.

Now keep in mind that I'm NOT saying that there can't be some problems with this new technology/design. Quite the contrary, I'm keeping my eyes open and I'm doing some extensive testing and shooting.

What I've found about the serving on the yoke of the cables is that the servinggets chafed by some sharp edges if you remove/replace them often. This is complicated if you don't have a proper bow press and utilize the limb bolts to tear down the bow. When you let the limb bolts down all the way, there is still quite a bit of pressure to overcome. It's this pressure on a squared off machined part that causes the wear. Depending on the manufacturer of the string/cables, it may be more or less. The pictures I saw appeared to be aftermarket. Finally, on that other forum there are those who constantly 'play' with their toys and don't have the proper tools to do so. Maybe BT made a slight mistake by providing a 'tear down' method like they did.;)

Now to the cam lean. I've shown most of my customers, and some of the member of the 'other' forum who come into my shop, how the cam lean issue can very easily be an optical illusion. Most who look at this design cannot, of course, befamiliar with it. I have checked every Guardian and Commander that has come through my shop at static and full draw. The worst cam lean I've seen is much better than anything else on the market. To say that there is none would be rediculous, but it is absolutely minimal in the approximately 30+ bows I've examined.

I've seen variances on other bows up to +/- 1/2". I am, of course, talking about bows with a cable guard only. On the Guardian design the most severe I've seen is about +/- 1/8". The picture posted on the other thread does NOT show the whole bow. I have shown people how that picture can be obtained in several ways.Or should Isay 'doctored'?

If you use a machine I designed, pull the bow to full draw, and step back and look at the string coming off the cams, it appears to have cam lean. If you eyeball the string up with the center shot, the apparent lean disappears. If you put a laser (Spot Hogg) on the cams, the laser lights up exactly with the opposite cam. With all due respect, lasers don't lie, but eyesight can mislead.

Without going into extensive rhetoric, I hope I've explained my findings satisfactorily.:)



HuntingBry 04-07-2007 06:42 PM

RE: Guardian cam lean - fact or fiction???
 
Len, I have nowhere near the technical expertise as you, nor the resources you have to test these things. Since I am the source of the information that lead to your thread I figured I'd put my 2 cents in. I am keenly aware of the type that you are referring on AT. That site is a bit like high school when it comes to the brand loyalty. I always take what I read there with a grain of salt, but there have been a couple of threads over there about Guardian cam leanthat peaked my interest. One in particular where it was pretty evident that the originator of the post was not very technically proficient with archery equipment. All this poster knew was that at full draw the cables were touching the cam, which is only possible if there is some lean. Of course this thread eventually degraded into a bash fest and I lost interest. Other threads have had pics, one that you described in your post. Some of the pics show the cable touching the cam.

Ever since the Guardian came out I have been intrigued by its design and a fan of the potential it shows for where archery is going. With that I went to my local shop which sells the "Big 3" and asked how the Guardian is selling. The response was less than impressive and I asked if they knew why that was. The stiff draw was a main reason, but they did mention, without me baiting a response, that they had sent a few they sold back with problems. At least one had cam lean and cable problems and another had an unspecified limb issue. They said that this was enough for them to not push the Guardian, but they obviously sell it to those that are interested.

So, I'm sure that the majority of the Guardians out there are fine, and I think the design has opened the door for advancements in the archery industry. However, it does appear that some issues exist even if it is on a small scale compared to the number of bows sold. It's good to know that there are dealers out there like you that not only care about the sale of your bows, but go above and beyond to learn how the new designs work and find out if issues do exist. All things considered I would say that in the long run BowTech has a winner.

Cougar Mag 04-07-2007 07:50 PM

RE: Guardian cam lean - fact or fiction???
 
Thanks for the info Len and your input as well HuntingBry.




Len in Maryland 04-07-2007 08:05 PM

RE: Guardian cam lean - fact or fiction???
 
First, I want to say that I've never seen the size of the print reduced to make it "easier reading." My 65 year old eyes see larger print a lot better and, since this forum allows such options, I guess I'm being told that I can't use those options any more, even though I've been using them for many years.

Anyhow, I didn't say that there weren't any problems with this design, but they're minimal and being blown completely out of proportion by some people. If youcheck the profileson that other forum, you'll notice that the majority of the negative posts come from people who remain anonymous. No name, no location, and limited posts. Many times the posts they do make (and you can check that as well) are ones always negative towards one topic.

There was one post where they said the strings were touching/rubbing the cam. That's impossible. There is a situation where on the longer draw lengths the cable can touch the cam; but, that is a situation inherent in the design because the cables are on each side of the string. In checking this problem, I've only found one bow that touched and that was just barely.

I'm not trying to defend BowTech, no more than I tried to defend the problems of another major manufacturer with a new design last year. Selling that manufacturers product cost me a lot of money correcting the problems and I did it for my customers.

The problem with the end servings being damaged is real and should be addressed. It is, however, only a problem to those who play with their strings as I described. There may be isolated problems like cam lean due to axle holes being drilled wrong. But they have to be drilled pretty badly to cause torque like what was described because the fulcrum of the center pivot tends to limit that.

What other shops do and say is not for me to question. They may or may not have an agenda, technical aptitude, or tools to make their decisions. It's their decision though, and I respect that. I'm only trying to relay to you here on this forum what I've seen/tested. Those who have been to my shop will bear witness to my tools, techniques, etc.


However, it does appear that some issues exist even if it is on a small scale compared to the number of bows sold.
My sentiments completely. And I think we both agree that things are being blown out of proportion.


Thanks for the response.

Germ 04-07-2007 08:15 PM

RE: Guardian cam lean - fact or fiction???
 
Len my buddy had to return his and he has a longer DL(31). Was it us? We use the same arrow gold tip 75-95 as he shoots on his mathews. We had to setthe nock way hight to get it to shoot.

From what I read the issue is longer DL. But who knows




Rob/PA Bowyer 04-07-2007 10:09 PM

RE: Guardian cam lean - fact or fiction???
 

ORIGINAL: Len in Maryland

First, I want to say that I've never seen the size of the print reduced to make it "easier reading." My 65 year old eyes see larger print a lot better and, since this forum allows such options, I guess I'm being told that I can't use those options any more, even though I've been using them for many years.

Get the chip off your shoulder there LEN, I edited the thread for the benefit of everyone not to spite you. The print was huge, not like this particular one where it's fine. No one is saying to use or not to use any options, that particular one was obnoxious and I was only trying to help. If ya'll want it obnoxious, here LEN so your feelings are hurt, I'll change it back. Geesh.

Rickmur 04-08-2007 02:52 AM

RE: Guardian cam lean - fact or fiction???
 
Welcome back Len. Your expertise is always welcomed and looked forward to.

Len in Maryland 04-08-2007 04:32 AM

RE: Guardian cam lean - fact or fiction???
 
Germ:

The GT 75-95 is a very stiff arrow. One cam bows like stiff arrows, but they are not as necessary on two cam bows. Besides, the consistentspine of a that arrow is questionable. With the tear the way you describe, it indicates a possible over-spined condition.

I've tuned quite a few 31" Guardians and just one on Friday -Trestand's. They all tuned just fine. Trestand is very happy with his. He just posted on Davidmil's thread.

gibblet 04-08-2007 05:05 AM

RE: Guardian cam lean - fact or fiction???
 
i can back up what len is saying about cam lean. i've looked at every bow makers bows out there since i've had the full draw tool, and the commanders and guardians have far less than any i've seen except my martin shoot thru cable system. its quite remarkable really when yourealize the bowtechs have a cable slide. the cams i've seen just don't roll side to side.

PABuck_HNTR 04-08-2007 05:25 AM

RE: Guardian cam lean - fact or fiction???
 
I've talked to my dealer and he pretty much says the same thing Gibblet and Len have said. There are always going to be brand bashers out there and we have to remember to take what we read on the internet forums, especially AT with a grain of salt. My Guardian has been flawless so far. And my dealer is selling his stock as quick as they comes in.

Germ 04-08-2007 06:02 AM

RE: Guardian cam lean - fact or fiction???
 

ORIGINAL: Len in Maryland

Germ:

The GT 75-95 is a very stiff arrow. One cam bows like stiff arrows, but they are not as necessary on two cam bows. Besides, the consistentspine of a that arrow is questionable. With the tear the way you describe, it indicates a possible over-spined condition.

I've tuned quite a few 31" Guardians and just one on Friday -Trestand's. They all tuned just fine. Trestand is very happy with his. He just posted on Davidmil's thread.
Thx Len that make sense. Will try again with a different arrow. I have Pro 40, Hoyt UltraTec, Ross and a Mathews and all shoot great. This one just confused me.


atlasman 04-08-2007 08:00 AM

RE: Guardian cam lean - fact or fiction???
 
Are These tools used to check your bow at full draw available to the public or just something you made up in your shop????

HuntingBry 04-08-2007 08:21 AM

RE: Guardian cam lean - fact or fiction???
 
Atlas, LOL. You love to push buttons.



And I think we both agree that things are being blown out of proportion.
Len, on that site it seems like everything is blown out of proportion. I have been a member of that site for nearly five years and I've posted less than 100 times.

Anyone who has followed he Guardian knows that the cam design was made to eliminate the cam lean that has plagued BowTech the last several years. So it would seem that the problems that exist are most likely manufacturing problems, archer induced with tinkering, or specific to certain specs/set ups.

Personally, my biggest issue with the Guardian is the draw. If they could get that draw like the Allegiance with smooth cams, OMG!!!

walks with a gimp 04-08-2007 11:33 AM

RE: Guardian cam lean - fact or fiction???
 
Being the chronic tinkerer that I am,, I decided to make up a shoot through harness for my Guardian. It uses a double cable rod arrangement to keep the cables from turning and spread out a little more than what the old Proline spreaders that I had would allow. I shot it some and chronoed the set up with the exact same draw length and draw weight. I was expecting to gain a little speed but it still shot the same as the standard factory harness that came on the bow. What I did finally notice was that the shoot through harness allowed a bit more cable/cam clearance at full draw. I had about 1/8" to 3/16" with the stock harness and it went out to more than 1/4" with the shoot through. The other thing,, and that's why I went back to the stock harness was that the cams now leaned A BIT away from the factory cable rod. With the factory harness, there is no cam lean at full draw or at brace.

I guess sometimes there's not much improving to do on a great bow to start with;)



walks with a gimp 04-08-2007 11:33 AM

RE: Guardian cam lean - fact or fiction???
 
Here's another pic.


walks with a gimp 04-08-2007 11:34 AM

RE: Guardian cam lean - fact or fiction???
 
I used UltraCam string matreial and DiamondBack for serving.

walks with a gimp 04-08-2007 11:35 AM

RE: Guardian cam lean - fact or fiction???
 
Forgot the pic

walks with a gimp 04-08-2007 11:36 AM

RE: Guardian cam lean - fact or fiction???
 
Woops!


walks with a gimp 04-08-2007 11:38 AM

RE: Guardian cam lean - fact or fiction???
 
Another look..


Len in Maryland 04-08-2007 12:27 PM

RE: Guardian cam lean - fact or fiction???
 
atlasman:

A full draw tool for the general public is available from Apple Archery under their part number 0722. I designed it and they produce/sell it. It allows you to perform about 10+ different functions on a bow.

WWAG:

Man with my own heart. You do like to tinker, don't you?;)

walks with a gimp 04-08-2007 12:33 PM

RE: Guardian cam lean - fact or fiction???
 
I confess,, I'll have to show you my new bow press when it's all done;)

Len in Maryland 04-08-2007 12:40 PM

RE: Guardian cam lean - fact or fiction???
 
Great. I'm working on some new tools as well. Looking forward to seeing pics.

Rob/PA Bowyer 04-08-2007 07:18 PM

RE: Guardian cam lean - fact or fiction???
 
I think I'll stick with my Ally, it just shoots so perfect!

Bullet Hole Bailey 04-08-2007 08:05 PM

RE: Guardian cam lean - fact or fiction???
 
Thats a neat set up you got there gimpy

jsasker 04-09-2007 06:43 AM

RE: Guardian cam lean - fact or fiction???
 
WWAG,
You can send the first press to me--i'll put it to good use!;):D

newman1 04-09-2007 08:58 AM

RE: Guardian cam lean - fact or fiction???
 
OR YOU CAN FORGET ABOUT THAT CRAP AND SHOOT A MATHEWS!!!!!!!;):D

PABowhntr 04-09-2007 09:22 AM

RE: Guardian cam lean - fact or fiction???
 
I thought I posted a response on this thread but it does not seem to be here. Hmm, lets try it again.


I've tuned quite a few 31" Guardians and just one on Friday
Did Bowtech start producing 31 inch draw length Guardians now? I am curious because I thought they were only produced up to 30.5 inches. If they do manufacture 31 inch draw length models then I am going to have to look into getting one.

I am also curious as to whether this suggested cam lean is just an issue with the Guardian? I have yet to see anything mentioned about the Commander in this regard....true or otherwise. Thoughts?

Greg / MO 04-09-2007 09:35 AM

RE: Guardian cam lean - fact or fiction???
 
newman, just don't turn your Mathews upside-down where your camwould bein your line of sight and you could see it and you'll be ok... [8D]

newman1 04-09-2007 10:04 AM

RE: Guardian cam lean - fact or fiction???
 
Greg/MO ,I never left.I was just being sarcastic.I would never consider such a move:);)

davidmil 04-09-2007 11:03 AM

RE: Guardian cam lean - fact or fiction???
 
PA,... they don't make a 31 inch Guardian but with tweeking and all I thinkLen gets close at 30 1/2-3/4 or somethiing like that. That's measuring them on a machine.

PABowhntr 04-09-2007 11:50 AM

RE: Guardian cam lean - fact or fiction???
 
Thanks David. I was curious.

My Commander is a hair long in the draw for the specified module. I thought maybe Len was running into some 30.5 Guardians that were a hair long as well.

davidmil 04-09-2007 11:59 AM

RE: Guardian cam lean - fact or fiction???
 
Well the Commander does go to 32 from the factory.. RIGHT????

Len in Maryland 04-09-2007 06:17 PM

RE: Guardian cam lean - fact or fiction???
 
I've can get them up to about 30 3/4 or 30 7/8". I just call them 31". Sorry for the confusion.

Actually, I hate putting the DLout that far for their ATA (33 3/4"). The string angle becomes too extreme and puts the peep too far out. Now that's a personal opinionwhich is something thatI rarely give.;):D

Germ 04-09-2007 06:35 PM

RE: Guardian cam lean - fact or fiction???
 
Sorry guys he has his set to 30.5 I just rounded up, MI math:)

Dougk 04-09-2007 06:53 PM

RE: Guardian cam lean - fact or fiction???
 
how well does the Guardian paper tune?

walks with a gimp 04-09-2007 07:31 PM

RE: Guardian cam lean - fact or fiction???
 
I papered mine at 60/29 inch with a bare shaft 340 Axis and 100 grain point at 6 feet..Made the nicest little bullet hole you ever seen.

davidmil 04-09-2007 09:40 PM

RE: Guardian cam lean - fact or fiction???
 
Well thanks to Len I got mine tuned just fine on paper. Bullet holes on every arrow from the box. Of course I had to change arrows, but I'm happy I did. These Carbon Tech Whitetailsare great. The bow tunes just fine if you put the right arrow to it. LOL

PABowhntr 04-10-2007 04:33 AM

RE: Guardian cam lean - fact or fiction???
 
David,

Yes, I had my Commander ordered in a 31 inch but decided to go with the 30.5 because it felt a bit more comfortable. I ordered my Guardian in a 30.5 but was hoping it would be a tad long as well.

Len,

Thanks for the info. I will have to see how well the string angle and peep work for me.

Nefarious12 04-10-2007 07:06 AM

RE: Guardian cam lean - fact or fiction???
 
To the guy who said shoot a matthews.... i hear they might be losing there name after some limbs twisting... they are the next high country

newman1 04-10-2007 09:51 AM

RE: Guardian cam lean - fact or fiction???
 
I am the guy who said shoot a Mathews.I was just kidding as i said before.I would not shoot a Mathews if you gave it to me.I like my 06 Ally just fine..


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