Are Crossbows Considered Archery???
04-08-2007, 04:30 AM
#81
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location:
Posts: 131
RE: Are Crossbows Considered Archery???
Rich,
If you read my posts, which you did not- I am about the only archery-only ranch that allows crossbows! You attitude sucks. If you had an ounce of decency, you would apoligize for your insult and thank me for giving crossbow huntersthe chance- when no one else will!
Also, the world does not owe you anything. What on earth leads you to believe that the world owes you something because of your age??? Or your handicap? I am sure it sucks, and we will all face it one day- but the worldstops for no one, Rich.
If you read my posts, which you did not- I am about the only archery-only ranch that allows crossbows! You attitude sucks. If you had an ounce of decency, you would apoligize for your insult and thank me for giving crossbow huntersthe chance- when no one else will!
Also, the world does not owe you anything. What on earth leads you to believe that the world owes you something because of your age??? Or your handicap? I am sure it sucks, and we will all face it one day- but the worldstops for no one, Rich.
04-08-2007, 05:59 AM
#82
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 9,175
RE: Are Crossbows Considered Archery???
Your right Arthur P the Crossbow did come first, so that just means a Gun looks like a Crossbow and shots like a Crossbow, instead of the other way around, if were going to get techinal here.
Kind of reminds me of the time when I was a Kid and my Uncle Ted asked me the question about what came first the Chicken or the Egg. I told him the Bible said the Chicken did,and thatit really did not change the fact, thatbecause somewhere right then, there was an Egg sliding out a Chickens hind quarters!
Come on now Arthur, you know a crossbow looks and is shot like a Gun.
Kind of reminds me of the time when I was a Kid and my Uncle Ted asked me the question about what came first the Chicken or the Egg. I told him the Bible said the Chicken did,and thatit really did not change the fact, thatbecause somewhere right then, there was an Egg sliding out a Chickens hind quarters!
Come on now Arthur, you know a crossbow looks and is shot like a Gun.
Your home made Crossbow is Awsome, reminds me of whenI was a kid and my dad and I made one for me whenI thought I was William Tell, But lets be Honest here, they have nothing to do with the modern day Crossbows we are talking about here trying to get pushed into the archery season. There is no Archer involved in a Crossbow!
At least a Chariot and an Abrams Tank have a driver in common!
At least a Chariot and an Abrams Tank have a driver in common!
Let's examine things a bit more closely here, 1 point at a time:
1. Power source. Crossbow has a prod, which is the crossbow term for a bow. Same.
2. Release mechanism. Crossbow is mechanically released with a trigger. Except for a few diehards who stillshoot with theirfingers, compounds are mechanically released, usually with a trigger. Just one is mounted to the weapon and the other is mounted to the wrist or hand.
3. Cocked and locked vs let-off. Except in a few states, there is no let-off restriction for compounds. There is at least one company making a 99% let-off bow. That makes holding weight something like7/10ths of a pound for a70 pound bow.You could -though I wouldn't recommend it- draw that bow and hang it up by it's string and keep it cocked and loaded. At the very least, you could draw it while the deer is still far enough away or screened by brush that it wouldn't see you draw, and then EASILY hold until the deer presents a shot. I guess you could say a crossbow is 100% let-off since it's cocked and held back mechanically. Are we really going to quibble about .7 of a pound difference?
Also, there was much screaming about P&Y's 65% let-off rule where people were saying let-off had nothing to do with how difficult a bow is to shoot, or how difficult it is to harvest game. If it's fair to have no let-off limit for compounds, thenlet-off isnot a fair argument to use against crossbows.
So, no let-off restriction makes the argument moot. Same
4. Power and effective range. Even though the hunting crossbow is made with much higher draw weight, the power stroke is much shorter. The standard rule of thumb is to take the crossbow's draw weight and divide by 3. That gives you an approximate poundage bow it would compare to.A 175 lb crossbow would be roughly equal in power to a 60 pound bow. Some of the newer designs are more efficient and might be able to stretch the factor to 2, or befairlyequivalent to an 85 lb compound. And there are some guys who do hunt with such heavyweight gear. Which makes maximum effective range roughly the same.
5. Ease of use. I've been watching the scores from 3D shoots that allow crossbows for some years now, ever since IBO allowed crossbows to compete. There have been very few instances where the high score for the tournament were set by the crossbow class. For instance, at the IBO 2006 World Championship, XBow class winner shot 472.15. MBR (male bowhunter release)winner shot 504.24. People talk about their ease of use and to a certain point, especially for beginners, it's true. Butease of use isnot dissimilar from a compound. In fact, for experienced shooters, advantage compound.
If you want to check up on what I'm saying, go to IBO's website and do your own score comparisons in the Results section.
6. Hand drawn. I also have a modern, though not highest tech, crossbow. I draw all my crossbows by hand. So do most other crossbow shooters that I've spoken with. Mechanical cocking devices are available for crossbows, but they're such a pain to mess with that it's mostly the disabled orother guys that simply don't have the strength to hand cockthe weaponthat use them. And those guys are already allowed to use crossbows in most states' archery seasons already.
So, most crossbows are hand drawn. It's just a matter of when the drawing takes place, and that argument has already been dealt with in #3.
7) Shooting positions. If there is one area where the crossbow has an advantage, I believe this is it. I can shoot my crossbow in the same positions I can my bow, sitting, kneeling, crouchingand standing. In addition though, I can shoot the crossbow in the prone position. A real advantage in a spot and stalk situation - although I can't carry the crossbow loaded while crawling through the weeds and low brush. The bolt would fall off or get pushed out of the track and have to be reloaded anyway. But, since most deer hunting is done out of tree stands these days, that's not much of an advantage.
On the other hand, the crossbow can be rested, which does aid in making an accurate shot. Another advantage. However, I've seen it argued on this forum many times that anything that makes for better accuracy and a higher percentagechance for making a clean killis a good thing. So, again, you can't argue one way for compound technology and then turn the other face and say it's bad for crossbows.
8) Stock The one remaining item that distinguishes the crossbow from bows. Just like cables and pulleys distinguish the compound from recurves, isn't it?
Really, fellas. Looking at the whole picture, I'd say if you want to keep modern crossbows banned, then you've also got to ban your modern compounds. The compound archer has yammered and clawed for moretechnology and ease of use for a long, long time now. And they'vehad their desires catered to by a money hungry industryfor so long nowthat there is very little functional difference remaining between the two.
Is it enough difference to continue keeping the crossbow out of archery seasons? Only the various fish and game commissionscan make the final decision.
04-08-2007, 06:27 AM
#83
Fork Horn
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Georgia
Posts: 376
RE: Are Crossbows Considered Archery???
I'm fairly new to the art of hunting with a bow, I don't currently use a crossbow (I'm a compound user) and I have no current desire for a crossbow. I do however agree with Arthur P's lastest post. IMHO the art of hunting with any archery product (compound/ recurve/ longbow/ crossbow) is getting yourdeer/ turkey/ bear/ wild hog/ on so on...positioned close enough to make an ethical kill, regardless of the weapon used, to me it's the art of stealth, scent control, knowing your prey and their characteristics. To me that's the hardest part. With some practice with a well tuned weapon most anyone can hit a target at 25 yds. To each his own.
04-08-2007, 08:50 AM
#84
Fork Horn
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Indiana
Posts: 162
RE: Are Crossbows Considered Archery???
Really, fellas. Looking at the whole picture, I'd say if you want to keep modern crossbows banned, then you've also got to ban your modern compounds. The compound archer has yammered and clawed for moretechnology and ease of use for a long, long time now. And they'vehad their desires catered to by a money hungry industryfor so long nowthat there is very little functional difference remaining between the two.
04-08-2007, 12:34 PM
#85
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Kansas
Posts: 3,288
RE: Are Crossbows Considered Archery???
ORIGINAL: Arthur P
LOL! First you say I'm right and then you go right back to the 'crossbow looks like a gun' thing.
Modern crossbows? What about modern compounds? You've got to examine how far technology has carried the compound over the past decade and, as far as I'm concerned, it's really blurred the line between xbows and compounds, if not completely erased most of the line.
Let's examine things a bit more closely here, 1 point at a time:
1. Power source. Crossbow has a prod, which is the crossbow term for a bow. Same.
2. Release mechanism. Crossbow is mechanically released with a trigger. Except for a few diehards who stillshoot with theirfingers, compounds are mechanically released, usually with a trigger. Just one is mounted to the weapon and the other is mounted to the wrist or hand.
3. Cocked and locked vs let-off. Except in a few states, there is no let-off restriction for compounds. There is at least one company making a 99% let-off bow. That makes holding weight something like7/10ths of a pound for a70 pound bow.You could -though I wouldn't recommend it- draw that bow and hang it up by it's string and keep it cocked and loaded. At the very least, you could draw it while the deer is still far enough away or screened by brush that it wouldn't see you draw, and then EASILY hold until the deer presents a shot. I guess you could say a crossbow is 100% let-off since it's cocked and held back mechanically. Are we really going to quibble about .7 of a pound difference?
Also, there was much screaming about P&Y's 65% let-off rule where people were saying let-off had nothing to do with how difficult a bow is to shoot, or how difficult it is to harvest game. If it's fair to have no let-off limit for compounds, thenlet-off isnot a fair argument to use against crossbows.
So, no let-off restriction makes the argument moot. Same
4. Power and effective range. Even though the hunting crossbow is made with much higher draw weight, the power stroke is much shorter. The standard rule of thumb is to take the crossbow's draw weight and divide by 3. That gives you an approximate poundage bow it would compare to.A 175 lb crossbow would be roughly equal in power to a 60 pound bow. Some of the newer designs are more efficient and might be able to stretch the factor to 2, or befairlyequivalent to an 85 lb compound. And there are some guys who do hunt with such heavyweight gear. Which makes maximum effective range roughly the same.
5. Ease of use. I've been watching the scores from 3D shoots that allow crossbows for some years now, ever since IBO allowed crossbows to compete. There have been very few instances where the high score for the tournament were set by the crossbow class. For instance, at the IBO 2006 World Championship, XBow class winner shot 472.15. MBR (male bowhunter release)winner shot 504.24. People talk about their ease of use and to a certain point, especially for beginners, it's true. Butease of use isnot dissimilar from a compound. In fact, for experienced shooters, advantage compound.
If you want to check up on what I'm saying, go to IBO's website and do your own score comparisons in the Results section.
6. Hand drawn. I also have a modern, though not highest tech, crossbow. I draw all my crossbows by hand. So do most other crossbow shooters that I've spoken with. Mechanical cocking devices are available for crossbows, but they're such a pain to mess with that it's mostly the disabled orother guys that simply don't have the strength to hand cockthe weaponthat use them. And those guys are already allowed to use crossbows in most states' archery seasons already.
So, most crossbows are hand drawn. It's just a matter of when the drawing takes place, and that argument has already been dealt with in #3.
7) Shooting positions. If there is one area where the crossbow has an advantage, I believe this is it. I can shoot my crossbow in the same positions I can my bow, sitting, kneeling, crouchingand standing. In addition though, I can shoot the crossbow in the prone position. A real advantage in a spot and stalk situation - although I can't carry the crossbow loaded while crawling through the weeds and low brush. The bolt would fall off or get pushed out of the track and have to be reloaded anyway. But, since most deer hunting is done out of tree stands these days, that's not much of an advantage.
On the other hand, the crossbow can be rested, which does aid in making an accurate shot. Another advantage. However, I've seen it argued on this forum many times that anything that makes for better accuracy and a higher percentagechance for making a clean killis a good thing. So, again, you can't argue one way for compound technology and then turn the other face and say it's bad for crossbows.
8) Stock The one remaining item that distinguishes the crossbow from bows. Just like cables and pulleys distinguish the compound from recurves, isn't it?
Really, fellas. Looking at the whole picture, I'd say if you want to keep modern crossbows banned, then you've also got to ban your modern compounds. The compound archer has yammered and clawed for moretechnology and ease of use for a long, long time now. And they'vehad their desires catered to by a money hungry industryfor so long nowthat there is very little functional difference remaining between the two.
Is it enough difference to continue keeping the crossbow out of archery seasons? Only the various fish and game commissionscan make the final decision.
Your right Arthur P the Crossbow did come first, so that just means a Gun looks like a Crossbow and shots like a Crossbow, instead of the other way around, if were going to get techinal here.
Kind of reminds me of the time when I was a Kid and my Uncle Ted asked me the question about what came first the Chicken or the Egg. I told him the Bible said the Chicken did,and thatit really did not change the fact, thatbecause somewhere right then, there was an Egg sliding out a Chickens hind quarters!
Come on now Arthur, you know a crossbow looks and is shot like a Gun.
Kind of reminds me of the time when I was a Kid and my Uncle Ted asked me the question about what came first the Chicken or the Egg. I told him the Bible said the Chicken did,and thatit really did not change the fact, thatbecause somewhere right then, there was an Egg sliding out a Chickens hind quarters!
Come on now Arthur, you know a crossbow looks and is shot like a Gun.
Your home made Crossbow is Awsome, reminds me of whenI was a kid and my dad and I made one for me whenI thought I was William Tell, But lets be Honest here, they have nothing to do with the modern day Crossbows we are talking about here trying to get pushed into the archery season. There is no Archer involved in a Crossbow!
At least a Chariot and an Abrams Tank have a driver in common!
At least a Chariot and an Abrams Tank have a driver in common!
Let's examine things a bit more closely here, 1 point at a time:
1. Power source. Crossbow has a prod, which is the crossbow term for a bow. Same.
2. Release mechanism. Crossbow is mechanically released with a trigger. Except for a few diehards who stillshoot with theirfingers, compounds are mechanically released, usually with a trigger. Just one is mounted to the weapon and the other is mounted to the wrist or hand.
3. Cocked and locked vs let-off. Except in a few states, there is no let-off restriction for compounds. There is at least one company making a 99% let-off bow. That makes holding weight something like7/10ths of a pound for a70 pound bow.You could -though I wouldn't recommend it- draw that bow and hang it up by it's string and keep it cocked and loaded. At the very least, you could draw it while the deer is still far enough away or screened by brush that it wouldn't see you draw, and then EASILY hold until the deer presents a shot. I guess you could say a crossbow is 100% let-off since it's cocked and held back mechanically. Are we really going to quibble about .7 of a pound difference?
Also, there was much screaming about P&Y's 65% let-off rule where people were saying let-off had nothing to do with how difficult a bow is to shoot, or how difficult it is to harvest game. If it's fair to have no let-off limit for compounds, thenlet-off isnot a fair argument to use against crossbows.
So, no let-off restriction makes the argument moot. Same
4. Power and effective range. Even though the hunting crossbow is made with much higher draw weight, the power stroke is much shorter. The standard rule of thumb is to take the crossbow's draw weight and divide by 3. That gives you an approximate poundage bow it would compare to.A 175 lb crossbow would be roughly equal in power to a 60 pound bow. Some of the newer designs are more efficient and might be able to stretch the factor to 2, or befairlyequivalent to an 85 lb compound. And there are some guys who do hunt with such heavyweight gear. Which makes maximum effective range roughly the same.
5. Ease of use. I've been watching the scores from 3D shoots that allow crossbows for some years now, ever since IBO allowed crossbows to compete. There have been very few instances where the high score for the tournament were set by the crossbow class. For instance, at the IBO 2006 World Championship, XBow class winner shot 472.15. MBR (male bowhunter release)winner shot 504.24. People talk about their ease of use and to a certain point, especially for beginners, it's true. Butease of use isnot dissimilar from a compound. In fact, for experienced shooters, advantage compound.
If you want to check up on what I'm saying, go to IBO's website and do your own score comparisons in the Results section.
6. Hand drawn. I also have a modern, though not highest tech, crossbow. I draw all my crossbows by hand. So do most other crossbow shooters that I've spoken with. Mechanical cocking devices are available for crossbows, but they're such a pain to mess with that it's mostly the disabled orother guys that simply don't have the strength to hand cockthe weaponthat use them. And those guys are already allowed to use crossbows in most states' archery seasons already.
So, most crossbows are hand drawn. It's just a matter of when the drawing takes place, and that argument has already been dealt with in #3.
7) Shooting positions. If there is one area where the crossbow has an advantage, I believe this is it. I can shoot my crossbow in the same positions I can my bow, sitting, kneeling, crouchingand standing. In addition though, I can shoot the crossbow in the prone position. A real advantage in a spot and stalk situation - although I can't carry the crossbow loaded while crawling through the weeds and low brush. The bolt would fall off or get pushed out of the track and have to be reloaded anyway. But, since most deer hunting is done out of tree stands these days, that's not much of an advantage.
On the other hand, the crossbow can be rested, which does aid in making an accurate shot. Another advantage. However, I've seen it argued on this forum many times that anything that makes for better accuracy and a higher percentagechance for making a clean killis a good thing. So, again, you can't argue one way for compound technology and then turn the other face and say it's bad for crossbows.
8) Stock The one remaining item that distinguishes the crossbow from bows. Just like cables and pulleys distinguish the compound from recurves, isn't it?
Really, fellas. Looking at the whole picture, I'd say if you want to keep modern crossbows banned, then you've also got to ban your modern compounds. The compound archer has yammered and clawed for moretechnology and ease of use for a long, long time now. And they'vehad their desires catered to by a money hungry industryfor so long nowthat there is very little functional difference remaining between the two.
Is it enough difference to continue keeping the crossbow out of archery seasons? Only the various fish and game commissionscan make the final decision.
.Now thats a new approach from crossbow hunters, if you cant have your way (the hole 90 day season in my state), take it allaway!
I kind of Figured you had one of those modern day Bolt launchers you were notshowing us.
Question: Is a handicap hunter allowed to hunt with a crossbow in your state archery season?
Fact is, I know it, you know it, and everyone on this forum knows that it takes no archery skills to shoot a crossbow!
04-08-2007, 01:15 PM
#86
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Louisiana
Posts: 3,145
RE: Are Crossbows Considered Archery???
I am new to crossbows and hunting in general( I just got my xbow in Feb.), but I have been shooting modern firearms for a long time. I would have to agree with Silverflicker that the skill set involved in the firing of a xbow is more akin to that of a shotgun or rifle than it is a standard vertical bow(i.e., all principles of marksmanship also apply to firing a xbow), while the performance of the weapon is that of archery. However, as it applies to hunting, the game is the same right up until you actually fire your weapon of choice at your target. I guess it depends on how define yourself as a hunter and what you consider to be the most important part of the game; is it the stalk or the shot that provides the type of challenge you are looking for? I like to get as close as I can even when hunting with a rifle, some folks shoot them at 500 yards. Hunting is a flexible sport, and it allows the individual hunter to define his own rules for his own hunt(kind of like the way I used to play golf).
04-08-2007, 01:50 PM
#87
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 2,873
RE: Are Crossbows Considered Archery???
Lets just make it all challenging when we use guns to hunt can not shoot unless the deer is closer than thirty yards an you have to wait to load when you get the deer inside that thirty yards.Crossbow same but you can notcock thecrossbow unless the deer is within thirty yards. Compound bows, well, well,I guess you have to have them within thirty yards an you can not draw until they are within thirtys yards also.That should even Everythingup.
Just kidding I think everyone should be able to approach their sport or hunt as they wish.
Just kidding I think everyone should be able to approach their sport or hunt as they wish.
04-08-2007, 02:01 PM
#88
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 9,175
RE: Are Crossbows Considered Archery???
Question: Is a handicap hunter allowed to hunt with a crossbow in your state archery season?
Also, the archery deer season here is only a month long, basically the month of October, give or take a week either way. Other than that, the crossbow is legal for all general weapons seasons and all game, except for migratory birds. So there is something to hunt with a crossbow 11 months of the year.
Just for the record, since you seem to be trying to paint me as a crossbow fanatic, I could qualify as disabled and hunt with a crossbow in archery season under our regs, but I won't. I fought against allowing them for so long that I'd feel like a complete hypocrite if I did. If I had my druthers, I'd much rather still be able to go to the woods with my longbow in hand. And that modern crossbow of mine? It's been out of the garage once since I made my replica.
04-08-2007, 02:12 PM
#89
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 2,873
RE: Are Crossbows Considered Archery???
No sir, not by a long shot thats just what I think about the topic in general. I know in the back of my mind, oneyear some where down roadmostly likely, I willbe holding a crossbow again.
04-08-2007, 02:17 PM
#90
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: illinois
Posts: 2,019
RE: Are Crossbows Considered Archery???
ORIGINAL: Sliverflicker
.Now thats a new approach from crossbow hunters, if you cant have your way (the hole 90 day season in my state), take it allaway!
I kind of Figured you had one of those modern day Bolt launchers you were notshowing us.
Question: Is a handicap hunter allowed to hunt with a crossbow in your state archery season?
Fact is, I know it, you know it, and everyone on this forum knows that it takes no archery skills to shoot a crossbow!
[/quote]
that there is the dumbest statement i have ever read. with your logic it thus takes no skill to shoot any firearm or any other bow for that matter, compound all you do is pull it back and touch off the trigger of your release.
i hope none of you naysayers ever get hurt or disabled to the point that you cannot use a compound bow