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Do number of deer kills confirm thorough skills?
Do you believe that the number of deer a bowhunter has killed, or a kill or an occasional killing of a quality buck, indisputably attests that the person is thoroughly skilled in all aspects of archery and bowhunting deer?
Post your answer and opinions. Edited by - c903 on 12/05/2002 09:19:35 |
RE: Do number of deer kills confirm thorough skills?
No.
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RE: Do number of deer kills confirm thorough skills?
To a certain degree, yes. If a hunter has success year in and year out. Then he's obviously a better hunter than someone like.......me who hasn't taken a deer with a bow yet. But if he's a guy who's killed one or two does in the last four seasons and all of a sudden he comes up with a 150 class buck, no I don't think so. I mean even a blind squirrel finds a nut every now and then. LOL
KEEP IT LEGAL. KEEP IT SAFE. OR WE MAY NOT GET TO KEEP IT AT ALL. |
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RE: Do number of deer kills confirm thorough skills?
Well, your idea and my idea of "Thoroughly Skilled" may differ. In fact, I'll guarantee when you got right down to the nitty gritty of it I'll guarantee we all have a different benchmark. That said.... we learn and perfect our skills from reading, doing and observing.... and maybe picking brains. I will say that someone who's only hunted a very short time has NO way of being as skilled as someone who's hunted a lifetime. That doesn't mean the guy who's hunted a lifetime is skilled. I've met some real loosy hunters my age. I think the number of kills will definitely tell you something about a persons skills. I've bowhunted 32 years, have shot at least one deer every year except one.(that year I moved the week before bow season to a new state who's bow season was past or only had like a week left) A lot of those years the herds were small, the limit was one. In the past few years I've been making up for that with multiple kills. Todate I have 71 and most are bucks. Would you really question that I might know something about bowhunting. Sure, I don't know it all.... but darn I'm good.<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>
As far as the occasional quality animal.... My quality animal and yours may be different. No way do some of us have the size and undesturbed herd others do. If the QUALITY animal theory were restricted to your woods or vicinity then we could use it as a benchmark.... a little. NO, I don't shoot every buck I see, but I shoot enough of them. I started with recurves and wooden arrows, then aluminum and finally compounds. I've done it all, killed with all and have some numbers. If you run across some guy like me and you say "Yeh but,.... I shoot the big ones". He'll probably snicker, give you an ATT-A-BOY and go back to his thing. He doesn't shoot numbers for praise. He does it because he likes to hunt and he's developed some skills. Saying I passed a lot of small bucks to wait on the big one doesn't put the blood on the ground. I don't count "Could-a Would-a" kills. There are to many things that can go wrong... like me yesterday. SO, does a guy who has the numbers have anymore or less skills than the guys who shoots a "Quality Animal" every 3 or 4 years. Probably not... but what does it matter. Does the guy who shoots a "Quality Animal" every 3 or 4 years have more or less skills than the guy who whacks a couple deer a year... what does it matter. I don't care what skills the next guy has. Is he a bowhunter, does he have fun?...... GOOD for HIM. Is the guy who gets deer every year over a lot of years lucky? NOPE....he's an experienced bowhunter. Sure he has skills.... enough to achieve HIS goals, not the trophy hunters goals.  |
RE: Do number of deer kills confirm thorough skills?
I would have to say sometimes, and not all thime.
If a hunter is killing (not wounding) large number of deer on a consistant basis, then he must be doing something right. However, there are hunters out there who will only shoot trophies, and let a lot walk. I'm kind of in the middle, I will shoot deer to put them in the freezer, but only as much as I can eat. Those are mostly does though. I ussually won't shoot a buck under eight points. This year, I didn't get a buck, but did get three does. |
RE: Do number of deer kills confirm thorough skills?
Ditto......NO.
I have a rich friend in NY that hunts non-fair chase farms (my term) and has several dozen harvests. But I wouldn't take him with me. |
RE: Do number of deer kills confirm thorough skills?
Numbers are just that, numbers, they do not indicate skill. Look at some of the folks who pay big bucks for guided hunts every year, the only skill they have is how to be still and shoot, they do not have a lick of skill when it comes to hunting.
Skill on the other hand can be indicated by either number of deer harvested as with David or it can be the wall hanger every few seasons as with wolfen and some others here. Skill is doing all the work yourself and being successful in achieving your goal, either being a very full freezer with an occasional wall hanger or a wall full of big mounts. The Tazman aka Martin Price Founder and President of Virginia Disabled Outdoorsmen Club  |
RE: Do number of deer kills confirm thorough skills?
Well put Tazman!:)
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RE: Do number of deer kills confirm thorough skills?
Lots of deer killed does NOT mean you have great skills. If you have the opportunity to hunt several states, and spend LOTS of time in the woods, your gonna get more deer.
While most of the professional hunters (Adams, Keller etc) have damn good skills....learned from spending MONTHS of the year hunting (vs. a week for me this year)...the number of animals killed does not mean you have skill...doesn't mean you don't....all it means is that you killed a lot of deer. |
RE: Do number of deer kills confirm thorough skills?
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote<font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>the number of animals killed does not mean you have skill... <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>
I have to disagree, there is skill involved in killing even one deer with a bow. Shooting a whitetail in their own environment within 30 yards take some skill. I would agree though that if it is not fair chase, a little less skill would be required. I wouldn't make the assumption though that a person that has killed 100 deer is necessarily more skilled than someone who has killed 10. Edited by - BobCo19-65 on 12/05/2002 11:02:14 |
RE: Do number of deer kills confirm thorough skills?
Skill in bowhunting is a very difficult thing to qualify and quantify IMO. I think it is really easy to point out those who are NOT skilled bowhunters and probably won't every become skilled bowhunters once they've been in the game for a few years. Bowhunting takes lots of time and dedication and I've seen plenty of folks take up the bow and after one or two seasons give it up. It also has to do with one's own standards. I hold out for mature bucks as best I can every year so I do have to spend lots of time in a stand and I do get a chance to observe lots of deer behavior and deer patterns which I think does help and does build on itself year after year rather than just going into the the woods and popping the first deer I see and then spending the rest of the season upland bird hunting, waterfowl hunting, or drinking beer. The previous 7 years I was lucky enough to tag 6 respectable bucks so I was feeling pretty cocky and then comes this year where I'm deerless and wounded probably the second biggest buck ever. So now I'm humbled considerabley and questioning my "skills". It also depends on if a hunter is doing his own scouting and hanging his own stands and whether that ground is private or public, and not traveling to 7 different states on guided hunts etc. A guy who can kill better than average bucks (according to what that is in a given area)year in and year out doing his own scouting etc has some skills but to what degree as to compared to someone else who may go out and shoot 3-4 does per year with a little buck thrown in,I have no clue how to quantify that. There is always some degree of luck as well IMO.
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RE: Do number of deer kills confirm thorough skills?
No.
Skill depends on dedication to perfect the artform I call archery. I have never finished a bow season without learning something new or actually seeing a "what if..." situation come to pass. When I either stop learning from it or no longer get the thrill, I'm done. As for the #'s, they do not correlate directly as far as I'm concerned. I have seen numbers of others' bow kills that were poor hits and while the person may have many, their shot placement skills leave a lot to be refined upon. Tazman has a good point, again! Shoot often - Hunt always |
RE: Do number of deer kills confirm thorough skills?
I've thought about this topic for both deer and turkey but more for turkey than deer.
No I don't think the number of kills represent the skill of a hunter. However they do tend to go together. I don't have the time (or enough money) to scout and hunt as much and I'm also a meat hunter. I've taken two deer this year (a doe & an 8 point) that a trophy hunter would have passed. However there are a lot of trophy hunters out there that are more skilled than I at getting big bucks. Now through experience I've learned a lot about stand placement, shot execution, tracking, calling, etc. I do believe everyone has there fair share of good luck but I also believe from my experience that in the end I'll harvest more deer than a casual, non-addicted, non-avid bowhunter. |
RE: Do number of deer kills confirm thorough skills?
You know what?
The gospel...<font size=6></font id=size6>Experience brings more luck!!!!! |
RE: Do number of deer kills confirm thorough skills?
No, as said before i believe that there is always something to learn. i hunt for the meat and i harvest enough deer to feed my family until the next season (usually) but i am not an expert and will never claim to be. i had my share of problems this year and have learned from them. as soon as the season is over there will be some drastic changes made and a couple stands moved and new ones put up.
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RE: Do number of deer kills confirm thorough skills?
Many excellent points. Here are some more considerations to throw in the mix.
I have a formula I present to shooters who are good hunters and good shooters, but have eventually convinced themselves they are neither because they do not or have not killed as many deer as some others have. First, I tell them; unless you are constantly missing your shots, or constantly wounding and not recovering deer, do not be overly concerned. Superior shooters also miss at times, and also wound and not recover deer at times. Do your best to obtain the best shooting skills possible, but realize that Murphy messes with every shooter. As for numbers, I tell shooters to keep this formula in mind: Deer population + available location(s) + plus time spent in field + allowed deer quota = possible numbers and quality. I have hunted deer where the population of deer is so numerous and the passings of large groups are so often and so constant, a hunter that does not yet know a deer print from a raccoon print, thinks a rub was caused by a 4-wheeler hitting the tree, cannot hit a barn door at 20 paces, could close his or her eyes when firing and hit a deer. I know excellent deer hunters/shooters that do not have the "numbers" only because they are usually limited to hunting confined areas having a low population of deer that inconsistently pass through the their (hunter's) area , sometimes only once in the morning and once in the evening, and can only hunt on weekends and some holidays. Nevertheless, they do not minimize their shooting, tracking, and scouting skills. Some of these hunters can tell you if an immigrant insect has entered the area and can put one in the insect's kill zone if it passes by. Put these shooters in a vast area that has a high deer population that pass often and in large numbers, they (shooters) would probably go into shock. In contrast, there is a bowhunter in my area who has a wall display in his home that would put the P&Y museum to shame. However, he will only hunt areas that do not require much scouting and patterning. In addition, he has the money to travel and hunt in numerous Whitetail locations throughout the U.S., and usually has a guide establish a "high probability" location before he arrives. Several years ago, I obtained permission for him to hunt one of my areas that is a large and very tough area (many deep ravines), and has a decent population of deer and some very big bucks. My purpose was somewhat selfish. I was going to plagiarize some of his techniques. When I took him out to show him the area and to do some early scouting, I was handed a "knock-me-off-my-feet" surprise. Not only did he not know how to scout and pattern beyond the superficial basics, he did not want to because he did not like to. Consolidating bits and pieces of what he told me, he scouted by having landowners and guides watch movements and tell him what appeared to be the best spot for him to sit. He also obtained information about areas from other hunters who hunted and already scouted the particular area. What he did not tell me, but according to some shooters who know him, he would ask permission or pay to sit in a shooter's stand, or would use a shooter's stand without the shooter's permission. Some, who know him well, have told me that (unconfirmed) he uses a headlamp and will shoot bucks long after sundown. Some have also told me that he usually will not track a wounded deer unless the wounded deer is an impressive buck or the trail stands up and yells directions at you. Needless to say, his wall display no longer impresses me, nor does he. Edited by - c903 on 12/05/2002 17:23:36 |
RE: Do number of deer kills confirm thorough skills?
to a degree yes , but there are way too many other factors to go into it. I like davidmils post on this subject.
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RE: Do number of deer kills confirm thorough skills?
When I first started bowhunting I just wanted to take a deer, any deer. My first one was a button buck, and yes I was proud of it. Over the years I have become alot more selective on the deer that I want to take. I have killed some decent bucks over the past few years and am proud of them. Im in kind of a hurry right now so I will make a long story short. I think the most skilled bowhunters harvest MATURE bucks consistently year after year. Do I mean that they have to be POPE AND YOUNG, not at all, they just to be MATURE, because they are the most difficult animals to take, whether they are a buck or a doe.
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RE: Do number of deer kills confirm thorough skills?
Great thread.
I think that if we are specifically talking archery, skill should only be measured against one hunter...yourself. If we are going to look at it in broad terms, what about the disabled hunter, or the older hunters with certain infirmities? One kill in 10 years for them might be a benchmark that any given able-bodied hunter might never achieve <u>under the same terms</u>. I read once that if you constantly compare yourself to others, you will constantly find yourself coming up short... I have taken some of my hobbies in the past and ruined them for myself by getting way too serious about them. I have vowed that I will never do that again. If your having fun, you are doing it right. That goes for fishing and hunting. Enjoy it and don't let anyone spoil it for you by imposing their benchmarks of success as yours.  |
RE: Do number of deer kills confirm thorough skills?
EXACTLY.
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RE: Do number of deer kills confirm thorough skills?
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote<font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
Do you believe that the number of deer a bowhunter has killed, or a kill or an occasional killing of a quality buck, indisputably attests that the person is thoroughly skilled in all aspects of archery and bowhunting deer? Post your answer and opinions. Edited by - c903 on 12/05/2002 09:19:35 <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote> When someone harvests deer year after year without wounding or missing (except the occasional mishap) , that person is doing all the important aspects required by a bowhunter right. I've seen lucky hunters , but not year after year. I would say that someone who has killed as many deer with a bow as davidmil is "thoroughly skilled" , yes. At the same time I'd say that there are alot of "thoroughly skilled" bowhunters who dont have the high number of kills for different reasons.  <---Doug---<<< |
RE: Do number of deer kills confirm thorough skills?
WOW, Great question and thread.
I have now ,so far, to date taken 68 deer with a bow, I am 35 years old, I hunt very little private land and have taken 90% of my deer on public land. I do beleive that it has alot to do with "preraration meeting oppertunity" and throw in a little luck and some skill. The skill comes from homework, homework in shooting to acheive accuracy and in the way of getting to know your prey. Become one with your prey and it will make you a better hunter. I do not shoot in tournaments so I am not that good of a bow shooter, but I shoot to be skillful at harvesting deer. I put alot of time in the woods patterning deer, learning where they go and how they get there,learning the areas of land and how deer use it. I smoke so I know I am not invisible to them, I hunt high for this reason, I watch all deer and their reaction to calls and their surroundings so I will know what to do if they are out of range as to try to lure them into range. I don't focus my time and energy on how fast my bow is, only that it is accurate and then my time goes into the woods and their enviroment. I have a "you can't win if you don't play" attitude. You can sit at home or only hunt on the week-ends and still get deer, not as many as if you hunt everyday after work, or any and every free couple hours you have. I am not a great hunter, but I am confident that I am a good hunter and fair. I have had a few years where only one deer was taken ,that messes with you, but then come back the next season and take 6. I recover almost all my deer, I have lost only 4 in 12 years of hunting, but I dont give up looking either, and get as much help as is available at the time looking for a "hit" deer. Numbers look good but too many factors play into it. I have never taken a 150 class buck, I have a few wallhangers but no 150+ , and I would not trade my many memories of the first spike ,4, 6 and 8 points and does I have taken with a bow for a 150 clas deer ever. Yet I see guys and know guys that take a P&Y every year and concider them really good hunters. Go Figure.... I reconize that they must have the oppertunities to take alot more. I respect them for that and their abilities. Not by how many they take but the quality of their take. Hunting ; an act of love for nature guided by the strongest spiritual forces. http://www.adventuresoutdoors.freehomepage.com/  |
RE: Do number of deer kills confirm thorough skills?
Absolutely not!
In Florida at WMA's the state keeps track of the deer that are taken every year and they keep track of how many people go hunting. At one WMA there are 100 man days per deer taken, meaning it takes 100 hunters to get one deer. At a different WMA it's a different story. It is 3 man days per deer. 3 hunter go in and one deer come out. Does this mean the people at the 2nd WMA are more skilled? Not hardly. It just means there are more deer in that area. FOOLPROOF? Never underestimate the power of a fool! What if the "Hokey Pokey" really is what it's all about? |
RE: Do number of deer kills confirm thorough skills?
Some observations of this years harvest of my friends who deer hunt! Out of 19 people who I personally know that hunt whitetails, 12 of us use some sort of archery tackle too hunt deer right from the start of season.
Of these 12 we had a total of 15 tags to fill this year, all have been filled, a few(4) during archery season, and the rest were filled in various firearm seasons. The other group of 7 who do not archery hunt, but hunted 1 week of firearms together in the same area as most of the 12, did not score on a deer this year!! Theres got to be some correlation between the success of the archers than those who dont use stick and string! |
RE: Do number of deer kills confirm thorough skills?
I dont think so, I can only hunt on the average of one day per week,and then its a 300 mile round trip. The deer counts are calculated at about 15 deer per 1000 acres!...thats not alot of deer. If you take that and compare it to my co worker who takes two weeks off every year and hunts south Texas where the deer count is more like 20 deer per Acre and fills all of his tags every year...who really is the better hunter? He is def the richest hunter out of the bunch...thats all that proves.
 Legion of Doom Enforcer |
RE: Do number of deer kills confirm thorough skills?
I'm just wondering here is the question of the topic is "Who is a better skilled, someone who shoots a large number of dear or someone who doesn't" or "do the number of kills confirm thorough skills"?
I would still say that someone who has killed many deer with a bow does have skills. I don't see the word "kills" being defined though. Does that mean 50 double lunged deer, does it mean 0 double lunged deer and 50 gut shot deer recovered, does it mean 50 recovered deer and 0 unrecovered or does it mean 1 recovered and 49 not recovered. From the information given I have to say a large number of deer kills means that the bow hunter is doing sometinhg right. Are the skill as refined as someone who doesn't kill as many deer? Not necessarily. |
RE: Do number of deer kills confirm thorough skills?
BobCo
Be thankful you were typing that post rather than speaking it. You would have accidently severed your tongue.:) Would you mind untangling that line and throwing it again? :) Edited by - c903 on 12/06/2002 14:23:46 |
RE: Do number of deer kills confirm thorough skills?
LOL Sorry bout that - stressful day today.
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RE: Do number of deer kills confirm thorough skills?
What's more scary.... I understood what he said <img src=icon_smile_shock.gif border=0 align=middle> I think?????????
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RE: Do number of deer kills confirm thorough skills?
Yea, but....I'd sure like to hunt with those Drury guys.<img src=icon_smile_tongue.gif border=0 align=middle>
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RE: Do number of deer kills confirm thorough skills?
I'll try to explain what I meant now that I had a little rest:
It seemed like the topic to me was turning into a comparison of hunters. What I mean is basically does one hunter who shoots many deer have MORE skills then one who does not shoot many. And my answer to that would be not necessarily. The original question to me seemed like you (C903) were asking if the number of kills is associated with the number of thorough skills for am idividual. What I meant by my last post is that you can intreprete and the question a lot of different ways. You also have to assume what is meant by kills. Such as number of clean kill, the yardage of the shots, number of deer in the area, hours in the field, deer that are killed but not recovered etc,etc,etc. You also have to make assumptions with the word skills, such as did the individual setup his bow, did he scout and set up his stand himself, did he practice with his setup, does he know where to but the arrow, etc,etc,etc. No matter what, a person that can consistantly bring deer into 30 yards, draw his/her bow back, make a killing shot on a deer and not be detected by a deer does have skill. So just taking the question the way it was written without putting in any of my own biases or assumptions, I would say yes in part to your question. Edited by - BobCo19-65 on 12/07/2002 06:42:55 Edited by - BobCo19-65 on 12/07/2002 06:48:45 |
RE: Do number of deer kills confirm thorough skills?
I would have to agree with Bob and Davidmil for the most part. I think numbers do (usually) have something to do with skill. If you can consistently kill (any) deer with a bow...obviously you are doing something right. The size/quality usually ends up being a personal choice, and also has something to do with the area you hunt in. Personally...I haven't killed a buck with a bow in 6 seasons...by choice...but I have shot alot of does during that time, and passed on shots at dozens of bucks. I have just chosen to let the small/medium sized bucks walk...looking for a big one. It may take a long time to harvest the quality of buck I'm looking for...based on where I hunt, and the amount of time I get to spend in the stand...but that's my choice and I'm happy with it. I think all of us have plenty to learn...and if we say we don't...we're fooling ourselves. I know I learn something each time out. What wolfen said....spending time on stand observing....this has probably been the greatest help to me over the years. I'm a firm believer that experience is the best teacher.
I consider myself a faily skilled hunter, that still has alot to learn. This season I had opportunities to harvest deer (or at least shoot at) on every trip out, and many of those were bucks...to me that was a successful season....to someone else, maybe not. I only chose to take one shot...and double lunged a nice doe. I think if you based "skill" by the number of trophies on your wall, that could be inaccurate. Like C903 said of the hunter he talked about. I believe that many (adequately skilled) hunters...such as many of you here, could consistently take a trophy, if you were put in the position to (IE: put on stand by a guide in a fantastic spot). Of course, you still have to make it happen, but your odds go way up...when you are in the "right" location, in an area that holds numbers of trophy animals. As was said...many so called "skilled" hunters....are not much more than "wealthy" hunters. Good thread C. <img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle> |
RE: Do number of deer kills confirm thorough skills?
Skills is taking the Alpha Doe on your hunting land...
Skills is stalking to within feets and placing the shot on your deer... Skills is not having buck fever when the time comes to shoot the Monster... Skills is Knowing when you are beaten and how to improve your next hunt... Skills is confidence to place money on your shots... Skills is being able to stay undetected when deers are withing feet of you... Skills is not paying Big money to be placed in a stand and having no idea why you were placed in that stand... Skills is being able to easily teach and train someone else how to succesfully harvest their first deer with a bow... Skills is the reason why you walk through knee deep swamps, stick through bitting mosquitos, stay during a downpour and are on point even in -20 degree weather.... * Never shoot at the first deer you see, wait for the MONSTER that's lagging behind * |
RE: Do number of deer kills confirm thorough skills?
There's some truth in numbers, but it isn'tt the defining benchmark.
Some guys hunt here with me in NJ and shoot a haalf a dozen does and buttons a year, we have basically unlimited tags. Are they better than the fella in Iowa who has one tag, and shoots a hammer buck each year? Hell no. I would say, however, the best hunters I ever met take mature bucks every year on public land. If you've spent time in the woods, you know the type, no scentlok, an older bow, tattered camo, but intimate knowledge of the animal, the animals food supply, and the cool to pull off the one shot they may get a year. I don't care what animal you're hunting, take a mature, at his peak, buck every year on public land, and you're good enough where nobody can tell the difference between you and another just like you. Anybody can kill deer on managed private land, guided hunts, ect, and you really can't judge the skill level of those hunters, even though they may have it, if you're seeing 5 bucks per day, even the rookie will eventually get lucky. How many public land bruisers you have taken, well, that's a good way to judge a man's skill level. "In heaven, even the fish have antlers" |
RE: Do number of deer kills confirm thorough skills?
Yes and no, Sometimes its your nabor who barley puts in the effort and still gets lucky enought to get a bigger buck then you.
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RE: Do number of deer kills confirm thorough skills?
I don't think just because a hunter has killed 60 or 70 deer automatically makes him a skilled hunter. there are to many variables here. for instance- if your huntin private ground where the deer get no pressure, then your chances of killin deer increase.- if your huntin an area where there are lots of deer, as apposed to huntin an area where deer are very limited, then of course your goin to kill more deer.- and what about the bag limit-- some states you can kill as many as you please, don't even have to tag em. some states allow only a couple of deer.
I don't know how many deer I've killed in my 12 years of bowhuntin, because I don't keep a record of my kills. like somebody else said, does it matter, as long as your doin what you love and enjoying the most challenging sport there is? evidently it matters to some, because they make it a habit to put their # of kills down in almost every post they make.<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle> daytona 500 winner- Ward Burton go Cat-22 |
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