Question re: Whitetail Evolution
 

Animals evolve. I think we've conclusively established that. For example: Due to advances/changes in medicine/nutrition/genetics, humans are getting taller, and our brain size has grown. It's a scientifically proven fact. 4 million years ago, a five-foot tall human with a 500 cc brain cavity was above average. Now, we have an average height of close to 6' with a 1200+ cc brain. Obviously, there were other changes that came along with the evolution - skeletal, muscular, ligamentous, evolution of the senses (more taste buds, increased # of rods/cones in the eye, receptor cells in the nasal passages, highly adapted nervous system, etc...)

My question is: How are Whitetails evolving? ... And if they are changing, how fast are they evolving?

Are they getting taller? Faster?Are their brains getting bigger? Are their senses becoming more keen? Is selective breeding (whitetail farming) having an impact? Is Vomolfaction a newly-developed characteristic?

Since whitetails tend to turn over generationally much faster than humans, are they evolving at an accelerated rate?

I know these questionsare probably best-suited for a wildlife biologist, but I know we have a few who frequent this site, and I'm curiousto see how my intuition stacks up against the actual scientific data.

I know this is way out there, but thanks in advance.

RE: Question re: Whitetail Evolution
 

Interesting question. I know that I have no idea. Maybe we have a wildlife biologist on here that can better answer it?

RE: Question re: Whitetail Evolution
 

From what I understand, humans grew larger brains as a result of a higher protein diet. Eating meat mostly. With today's high protein crops, I think that wildlife are or will slowly get larger brains as well. I have heard numerous people say that deer never used to look up, but it happens all the time now. There is guy that lives not to far away from me that puts a bright colored teddy bear at the base of the tree. He said that it keeps the eyes of the deer on the teddy bear and not looking up. Anyway, I think that deer and other animals are constantly evolving. I don't know if they are getting taller or faster. It probably all goes back to the quality of the food they eat and their ability to adapt to achanging enviroment. If they didn't evolve, they would go extinct. They sure have adapted well to living in cities. On a side note, a friend of mine tackleda doe in his back yard when he was drunk a few years ago. The deer we have in my area are big but if you drive a couple hours to the Black Hills of South Dakota then they are smaller. I have heard a couple different theories on the smaller deer in the Black Hills. Some people think that it is the food and others think that it is because smaller deer survive better in the woods. I think it is the food they eat myself. Not much good stuff to eat in the Black Hills.

RE: Question re: Whitetail Evolution
 

To know this it would take years and years of research at least to know exactly how they have changed. Evolution deals a lot with what makes an organism successful. Like you said we have evolved fairly fast and there are obvious characteristic changes. We have changed so much because we have had to in order to succeed. With our population growing the way it is your average Joe wont cut it in the "corporate" world. Look at the younger generations, they are constantly getting smarter and smarter because of what we know and what we teach them but also because if they dont know a lot compared to others they will not be as successful in life (what our society has molded to mean successful).
Whitetailed deer were probably quite a bit different 200 yrs ago. Say for instince the area of KS that i am from. In the 50's there werent hardly any deer in the area and now there are some world class bucks that roam around all over the place (and guys would pay thousands to harvest deer we have). I have had the priviledge of talking with my grandpa when he was alive about a lot of the wildlife when he grew up. he would always tell me how if you saw a couple deer in a day that was a good day, now if i see a couple of deer a day i think man the deer really arent moving.
I have noticed that in our area (river bottom) a lot of the bucks grow massive brush type antlers that are not really wide. This is because when deer where evolving in our area ,which is really thick and brushy in some areas, they have been more successful (meaning reproductive success) than other bucks. They match their surroundings a lot more and can escape predation easier in thick cover; where as if you goto theprairie area surrounding the river bottomyou will see a lot more bucks that have really wide racks because they live in open terrain and their racks can be seen easier and do not obstruct them when moving through cover (because its open prairie w/fewer trees). So if you step back and look whitetails have come a long way in a short time, keeping in mind the geographic location. I will have my Biologists degree in the spring and have learned a good deal about evolution and behavior, so i can assure you i'm not just pulling stuff out of my rear end. However I am no where near an expert on the subject, but I have come to understand evolution A LOT better in the past couple of years with the higher classes i've taken. If there are any other Bio's who can offer more please do, this is a fascinating topic! And by the way Great post!!

RE: Question re: Whitetail Evolution
 

Honest question:

If a deer becomes nocturnal for whatever reason, or simply stops traveling by a stand that it's busted hunters in multiple times, would this be considered evolution?

RE: Question re: Whitetail Evolution
 

I have been thinking about deer evolution lately. I have been thinking along other lines however. I think that the two largest factors in deer evolution right now are not nutrition or habitat. I think they are HUNTING and AUTOMOBILES. Are deer going noctural because it is learned or is it genetic? Do deer that are not active during the dayand get shoot not pass on that habit and deer that are more active a night do pass on this trait? Is it a mix of both genetic instinct and learned behavior?

On the cars, are deer getting better at crossing roads? If so is it learned behavior or genetic instinct or a mix of both? Will deer eventually start looking both ways before crossing the road?:D

Considering all the strange studies out there that get funding one wonders if someone is doing a study on this.

RE: Question re: Whitetail Evolution
 

Excellent Post! But i have no idea if deer have changed in the past couple centuries. It will be intrestingto see some of the opinions on this thread.

RE: Question re: Whitetail Evolution
 

Ilcoyote, I'd say that's more learned behavior. Evolution would be more of a physical change. For example, mule deer haveenormous ears - and I'd be willing to bet that's a direct result of thousands of years of predation upon those individuals who can't hear as well.

Were deer always nocturnal? If not, then I'd think it's fair to say that increased night vision is an evolutionary change, which is possible.

But, a deer who can see well in both daylight and dark, learning to travel primarily at night - that's an example of a deer learning to adapt to survive - just like the developed habit of "looking up." An evolutionary change is something that can't be "learned,"like growing bigger ears or the ability to see in the dark.

RE: Question re: Whitetail Evolution
 

I guess increased night-time travel could be a result of a genetic change - imagine if there were a particular group of deer who, for some reason or another, had an eye dysfunction that inhibited their daytime vision (maybe their iris wouldn't close far enough to block out the daytimesunlight, causing them to spend their days hiding in the shade, to keep from being blinded by the sun). As a result, this group would tend to travel/feed primarily during low-light hours, and overnight. Obviously, these traits would indirectly lead to this group being tougher to hunt, given their low levels of daytime movement.

In that particular area, hunters would harvest a higher percentage of the deer with excellent day-vision, leaving the nocturnal herd to reproduce and pass on that genetic material.

I guess that would be a plausible scenario where hunting could speed the evolutionary processes by leaving deer to reproduce that are genetically programmed to be tough to hunt.

Interesting to think about, eh?

RE: Question re: Whitetail Evolution
 

That's what i was getting at.I wasn't real curious, I already had an opinion. Evolution takes many, many years to happen, while a learned behavior is more 'instant'.

My next question: Is the recentexplosion of countless gadgets, gizmos, and other products said to make us better hunters actually making us better at hunting the HIGHLY EVOLVED whitetail, or have hunters in general become less skilled, thus becoming more reliant on these products?


The reason I ask is becauseI think that a lot of people confuse evolution with adaptation.

RE: Question re: Whitetail Evolution
 

From what i have read deer have gone nocturnal due to hunting pressure.

In the study of human behavior researchers often ask if a behavior is learned or instinctual which is due to genetic predisposition. Usually it is both, but they want to know which is dominant. Why wouldn't it be the same with deer.

RE: Question re: Whitetail Evolution
 

Is Bunk you tard!

RE: Question re: Whitetail Evolution
 

I am enjoying this thread please don't turn it into an arguement on evolution vs. creation science.

RE: Question re: Whitetail Evolution
 

I would not count a buck going nocturnal as evolution. In the true definition of evolution, I don't think that going nocturnal could count because it is a behavior exhibited by a few individuals of a the species, not necesarily something that is being passed on. It would be like breaking a leg, having a child, and that childs leg is broken because the parent's leg was broken during pregnancy. Acquired traits (learned behavior) is not something that is passed on, it is not encoded in the genes.

RE: Question re: Whitetail Evolution
 

I think everything on this post is considered Adaptation.
Are Humans evolving because we are using better tactics to kill deer. NO the point is deer have not been studied enough, people haven't been having the relationships with deer we are having now. Oh yeah I think thats the point I'm trying to make. We have not been studying deer long enough.......If your arguement is "we've been hunting deer for thousands of years"...all I can say isI wasn't there with the indians were you??? Maybe the deer today are 1/2 as smart as they were then?!?
We really can't say anything except we're doingour part to make sure whatever adaptations are taking place, that they are taking place with good reason.

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RE: Question re: Whitetail Evolution
 

I think you're right on point, Beaverdam - a learned behavior can only be "learned" where the animal is genetically predisposed to that type of learning. For example, you're not gonna teach a whitetail to split the atom, or dance an Irish jig, but they apparently do have the capacity/willingness to change their travel patterns to avoid danger. Is this a new thing, or have they always had that ability, but it just took this long to develop the kind of hunting pressure necessary to facilitate the behavioral change? I guess that's the crux of this discussion.

I'd say that if you could somehow prove that whitetail brain sizes have increased by 5% over the past couple thousand years -it would substantiate the increase in cognitive ability.
-------------------------
Ilbow - I'm not saying that we should have first-hand evidence of whitetail evolving - I'm just asking if anyone is aware of any trends. I'm just interested in knowing more about what deer were, and what they're becoming.

You could see a trend or patternin fossilized remains from a million years ago. It's not rocket science to observe the skeletal remains from yesteryear and compare them to their present-day decendants. Just a side-by-side comparison would yield info regarding size, height, length, brain size, teeth, bone formations, etc...

I'm sure somebody, somewhere has looked at this stuff. It's what researchers do.

RE: Question re: Whitetail Evolution
 

You have a point and could well be right.

My idea on this runs along this line. Biologists have proven that women and men, mostly women, are hard wired to react in a nurturing way towards a baby that is crying. This is an inherited trait. So in terms of deer biology are deer becoming more nocturnal due to learned bahavior or because of a genetic predispostion that is being passed on to following generations because of hunting pressure.
I think of this because scientists have written recently on accelerated evolution. It just got me thinking. I don't see anything else in terms of deer biology that that comes close to hunting in terms of potentially accelerating evolution. In my state 25/33 % of the herd is removed every year due to hunting.

RE: Question re: Whitetail Evolution
 

I love how people say things are scientific fact .... how do you know? If you just listen to how many times "science" has changed it's THEORIES, you would realize it's just that ... a theory. Like carbon dating ... they dug up a piece of fossilized rock ... carbon dated it billions of years ago ... when it broke, there was pottery in it from hundreds of years ago. ..... how did that happen??

[:'(]Evolution is a joke ..... deer adapt ... period.

RE: Question re: Whitetail Evolution
 

I wont be the one to start the argument, as I believe in both creation and evolution. ;)

As far as deer behavior, they would all die quickly without good instincts and senses. I believe that an individual deers ability to actual learn, is probably what separates the so-so bucks from the ones that get big, old and live along time on public and "non-fenced-in" private land. Anyone can grow a big buck with high fences.

RE: Question re: Whitetail Evolution
 

Here's a cool article about how hunting can accelerate the evolutionary processes. No matter which side of the fence you're on, it's a neat read. Really makes you think. I guess somebody has been following this stuff.

http://www.hindu.com/seta/2004/01/01/stories/2004010100131500.htm

I know, it's a hindu site, which doesn't exactly scream "credibility" with regard to North American wild game, but it seems fairly straight forward.

Tony, I respect your opinions re: creation sciences, but really, I don't want to turn this thread into a debate over creation/evolution. That's a horse that's been beaten to death, and I'm hoping we can have this discussion without opening that closet.

RE: Question re: Whitetail Evolution
 

I don't believe we have conclusively established evolution. I would also note that scientist have said in the case of many animals, the size of the brain is not directly related to intelligence. Evolution cannot be directly observed, so therefore it can only be a theory.

RE: Question re: Whitetail Evolution
 

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I wont be the one to start the argument, as I believe in both creation and evolution. ;)

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No arguement ... discussion .... how do you believe in both? [&:]

RE: Question re: Whitetail Evolution
 

Exactly ...... good preaching marcus!:D

RE: Question re: Whitetail Evolution
 

Okay, instead of calling it Evolution, let's call it "Physical Change."

Is that a term that sits well with everyone?

Seriously guys, if this is gonna turn into a mudslinging match as to whether evolution is real or make-believe, I'll just ask one of the mods to lock it down. Stay focused fellas, and remember, if you have fundamental differences with this discussion, just leave it be. Try to be respectful to everyone else's views and opinions.

RE: Question re: Whitetail Evolution
 

quik ...shut it down then and start over ...you opened the can with your definitive statement ....only you can prevent forest fires!;)

RE: Question re: Whitetail Evolution
 

I won't even adress your confusion

What has physically changed in the whitetail deer? I'm unsure of any major changes in physical attributes. If there were only 1000 people in the united states...6' tall would be an accomplishment. Now you don't stand out in a crowd unless your 7' tall. Get my point. we see bigger better deer because we have more of them. As far as evolution....As soon as deer start growing camoflaged fur, than we'll talk. Until than

Same as it ever was!

RE: Question re: Whitetail Evolution
 

Can open...worms everywhere.

RE: Question re: Whitetail Evolution
 

Quoting the article referenced on page 2 - "What the Canadian scientists showed is the latest in a series of examples of man-promoted evolution. Perhaps the earliest well-studied instance is that of the `pepper moth' of England. The English peppered moth comes in light and dark colours, both under genetic control. Before the industrial revolution, which started in early 18th century, the dominant form was the white coloured moth with dark `peppery' spots on its wings. As it rested on the birch tree, it blended and camouflaged with the bark of the birch. As the industrial revolution began and factories belched out coal smoke, the birch bark darkened with soot. This made the moths visible to predator birds and the population shifted from the white to the dark coloured moths. Eventually the dark form became predominant and the white moth rare. In recent times with modern methods of pollution controls, the air in England is clearer, so are the birch trees and the lighter coloured pepper moths have increased in number as the dark ones fade."

Whitetails have a bunch of quirky traits - floating hair, dewclaws, shedding antlers, complex olfactory systems, excellent night vision, keen hearing, glands all over the place, whiskers, specialized teeth, ruminant stomachs, stilt-like legs, adaptive breeding system, etc... I wonder if any of those traits could have been spawned by a specific event or stimuli, like the Pepper Moth?

Could antler restriction laws have an affect of "accelerated evolution" on a herd?

Real funny Dave. Remember, I know where you live.

RE: Question re: Whitetail Evolution
 

As was stated earlier, deer have ADAPTED to changes, but their has been no evolutionary change. Stating evolutionary theories - as if they were fact - is just plain wrong. If you want to state that the theories make this claim, I'm fine with that.

RE: Question re: Whitetail Evolution
 

I don't quite understand what you're trying to say there Dave. Adaptation is a behavioral change, which is wholly different than a PHYSICAL change.

Deer have changed physically. For example, I'd wager that the dewclaw was, at one time, an integral part of the hoof, as opposed to our current herd, where that part of the hoof has essentially become obsolete.

Selective breeders claim to be able to grow deer with larger antlers from certain genetic bloodlines. It's a fact, evidenced by both their results, and the tens of millions of dollars spent annually in whitetail breeding and research. These guys aren't just wasting money for fun.

These species are actually changing, but in what ways?

Are we ultimately harming the species through selective breeding for a single genetic trait (large antlers)?

I would also stake the farm on it that if you compared a whitetail skeleton (or it's closest forefather)from 1 Million years ago, and compared that to a skeleton from today, they would not be identical. I'm wondering what the key differences are, and why they've become manifest.

RE: Question re: Whitetail Evolution
 

Daveh,

I would like to say that as far as i am concerned, I have not put forth anything I would say is a Theory. I am simply speaking of thoughts on potential deer evolution. I am simply throwing out ideas to a round table of people to disect as they will. Which is something i think some have done very well.

RE: Question re: Whitetail Evolution
 

you wager huh??? I take paypal! ;)

The world isn't that old quik .... I thought you didn't want an evolution debate??? ...... worms everywhere ...... that's hilarious!!:D:D

RE: Question re: Whitetail Evolution
 

Anything over the course of time changes.
Are we harming the species, well I'm not, but if your referring to the selective breeding farms, Only time will tell
So my question is are there any cases of whitetails pertaining to your original question. No! Evolution, which I believe Does not exist, Would theoretically have to happen over the course of years and years and years! So their could be no cases to the fact we have no knowledge of the living breathing species of whitetail before the last thousand years.
There is no possible answer to the originall question

RE: Question re: Whitetail Evolution
 

I wont be the one to start the argument, as I believe in both creation and evolution. ;)

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No arguement ... discussion .... how do you believe in both? [&:]
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I will tell you how. I think of us asplants in a garden. God planted the seed and we grow/evolve independently from then on. Creation and evolution in one. I put it very simply, but what I believe.

RE: Question re: Whitetail Evolution
 

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I'm thinking this is regrettably a dupmster of worms....
The world is 7,500 years old...Just ask my DAD!
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RE: Question re: Whitetail Evolution
 

No way....Are you one of those writters for Dharma & Greg??????

RE: Question re: Whitetail Evolution
 

Mods - can you either lock this down, or delete this anti-evolutionary dicta?

There was a plenty interesting discussion started, and this has become ridiculous. Shame on me for trying to spur some insightful conversation. I should have known.

Red, IlBow and Tony - Please cut it out. You're acting like children. Please, if you want to debate creationism and evolution - please start a thread in the appropriate forum. Have a little respect for others, and stay on topic. We have all explicitly stated that we are not inviting a debate about creationism. Everyone here is entitled to his/her own beliefs.

RE: Question re: Whitetail Evolution
 

I tell the truth with no remorse for Offense.
Don't woory about the lock-down.......I'm out!!!!