Does It REALLY Matter????
 

With all of the talk about draw force and the different draws of the different bows out there, I got to thinking........does it really matter?

I just purchased a new bow and in the process shot many different brands. All shot well and all had a different draw curve cycle. Some were harsher than others some built up quick, some slowly. Some felt heavier than others (all were shot at 70lbs) and some felt lighter. Not to drastic of a difference between them allthough. I mean it's a 70lb bow, what did you expect?

I must say.........I think this whole "draw force" thing is overrated. At some point you will be pulling 70lbs or whatever weight you have it set at. So if the little differences mean THAT much.........are you pulling too much weight?

If every compound bow were set at say......50lbs, would we be so critical of the draw cycle? I think not.


What say you?

RE: Does It REALLY Matter????
 

It is all mental(IMO) If it feels good we shoot good! Comes down to what we are use too. I have always shot longer slower bows. So when I draw a shorter speed bow I feel the clunk on it. After about 100 shots I won't even notice it, but the first pull Ithink what the heck it pulls to hard:D

RE: Does It REALLY Matter????
 

I don't think it matters much. A certain bow may have a better feel to it but just personal preference. I think a lot of the things we talk about with the new bows don't matter much. The technology is all so good and so close you are splitting hairs.

String buzz, jumps in the hand, dead after the shot, etc. I shot new models last year from Hoyt, Mathews and Bowtech. To honestly tell a difference you had to really concentrate on every aspect of the shot from draw to follow through. You can do that on the range in a shop. Out shooting with your buddies I think you would be hard pressed to tell much of a difference.

For me it came down to brand Loyalty. I had a Bowtech, I like the company, they have a cool logo, ads, etc. I bought the Allegiance and am very happy with it. I really don't think it is a better product than the others except in my mind which was biased to start with.

RE: Does It REALLY Matter????
 

I tend to agree with you and this was the premise of my post. Do people really have that hard of a time pulling different bows set at the same draw weight that it would cause them not to buy that bow or are they just "splitting hairs" as you put it?

I know I had a heck of a time noticing the differences. To tell the truth there is not that much of a difference between the high end bows and the low end bows for that matter.....well except the price.;)

RE: Does It REALLY Matter????
 

I think that draw force curves matter. They tell the story of the draw cycle. For hunting, I want smooth draw charicteristics for when I have to draw slow and steady. With the big let-off bows they have today, I'm afraid of jumping the arrow off my rest. That is not smooth. I'm a data nut and have plotted draw force curves for all of my bows. I'd like to see all bows come with a card showing their draw curve. It would save you some time while shopping. You could see everything before you ever drew it back. But since they don't come with one, you have to go out and test draw all the bows. Then you pick the one that felt the best to you. Shoot them too.

RE: Does It REALLY Matter????
 

I have never picked up a bow that I couldn't draw smooth and slow no matter how the draw curve was. To me it's a non factor. This is my point, how in the world could it matter? If the draw curve makes that big a difference, then I suspect the person drawing is WAY overbowed!

I didn't mean you in particular GregH, just in general. Do you not agree?

RE: Does It REALLY Matter????
 

I guess I'll agree to a point, but why should a guy of slight build, have to shoot a 50 lb harsh drawing bow, when he could be shooting a smooth 60 lb bow? For hunting, speedisn't that big of an issue that a guy needs a totally uncomfortable bow. In this respect, draw force makes a difference.

RE: Does It REALLY Matter????
 

I don't agree.

Some bows do not draw as smooth as other bows, period.

Can you draw them all smooth and slow? Sure. But some will draw smoother than others.

When I was looking for a bow this year I drew and shot every bow I could get my hands on, I'll use two for example;

I shot both the Allegiance and Martin's Bengal the same day, back to back. When testing bows I plan on purchasing I always draw as if I've got a deer in front of me. I draw as slow as I can in order to really feel what the bow is doing.

I drew the Allegiance back and it was smooth as slik. It built up nicely and rolled over smoothly. There was no harshness in the draw.

The Martin however seemed I was pulling all 70# back at once. The draw cycle wasn't smooth and when the cams rolled over you really felt it. Because of this, while drawing slow, there was noticable movement on my part from hitting the wall harshly.

I think it matters, but its just personal preference.

RE: Does It REALLY Matter????
 

The force curve on a compound could also be important to a person with bad shoulders. ;)

RE: Does It REALLY Matter????
 

You guys are acting like a smooth drawing bow makes70lb feel like 50lb.:DHey the scale doesn't lie, no matter what at some point during the cycle, you still have to pull the weight it is set at.Dan I never said some bows don't pull smoother than others read my post, what I did say isdoes it really matter? I can pull ANY 70lb bow out there just as smooth as silk in any position and in any weather. I still contend it's over rated.

I do think that it's important to those who are at the very limit of their pulling stength limits.;)

GregH, does a harsh drawing 50lb bow really pull harder than a smooth 60lb?I don't think so,maybeI'm wrong.

RE: Does It REALLY Matter????
 

If it comes down to draw force curve then that person is overbowed no doubt about it. Maybe that person should back it down a few lbs huh? That will save his/her shoulders more than the draw force curve they choose.

RE: Does It REALLY Matter????
 

I understand your point, but thats why I said that its personal preference. Maybe its because I'm a smaller guy that I tend to want to draw a bow that doesn't necessarily feel like I'm drawing the max weight.

I can tell you that my 2007 70# Allegiance draws a hell of a lot smoother than my 2003 60# Jaguar.

Personaly preference.

RE: Does It REALLY Matter????
 

I don't know that the pull is any harder, but keeping the letoff from crashing into the valley is easier with a smoother drawing bow as is a lighter poundage bow (harsh).

You have to remember, not everyone is strong as heck!;)

Even though I once shot an indoor season at 82 lbs, I have migrated to easier smoother pulling bows. I like to feel totally comfortable at all stages of the draw cycle. I may have to stop instantly for some reason. I sure don't want it to be at some point with a tremendous mechanical disadvantage for me. You know, like at the big hump where it starts to break over like that of a harsh drawing bow.

RE: Does It REALLY Matter????
 

What 70 lb bow wouldn't an ex-NFL football player beable to draw back slowly and smoothly?:D

I agree that some bows draw back and feel smoother. All 70 lb. bows will hit 70 lbs somewhere in the draw cycle but it's where and when it hits 70 lbs and how the weight builds up and drops off that gives a bow a percieved feeling of being smoother than another. It's all personal preference IMO.

RE: Does It REALLY Matter????
 

Draw force does matter. And I think test shooting a new line up of several manufacturers is very important. The draw force in one bow say the 2005Bowtech Allegiance compared to its new version the 2007 is very different to me. I prefer the 2007 over the 2005 and I think that's what most of the new technology in compound bows has been working on these past five or more years.

RE: Does It REALLY Matter????
 

Dan, there is no way you are going to convince me that your 70lb Allegiance is easier to draw than your 60lb Jaguar. Smoother yes but not easier. I know you didn't say easier but I feel with that statement you're implying that it's easier to draw.

I can say that a 100lb bowis smoother than a 40lb if it had a smoother draw cycle but that is not what I'm asking. To me some people make the draw force their "deal breaker" on buying or not buying a bow and I think it has more to do with the draw weight than anything.

Example: If all bows on the market maxed out at 40lbs you would not hear any discussion about the draw force curve because it would be easy for everybody to draw them no matter what position, weather, etc....

The ease of pulling makes the draw force curve a moot point and makesMY point that people get so close to theirability to pull back the bow that they NEED a smoother draw cycle. That translates (to me at least) they are overbowed to begin with.

RE: Does It REALLY Matter????
 

imo, I think you should shoot whatever bow makes you comfortable/confident thats all that matters. anything new is "good for now"....I choose whatever bow fits me the best!

RE: Does It REALLY Matter????
 

You hit the nail on the head here GregH.......Alot of people cannot do this and I feel it has more to do with the weight they are pulling than the draw cycle.

I like a smooth drawing bow just like the next guy, I think I purchased a very smooth bow in the Ross CR334 but I don't think that the draw cycle of this bow or any other really mattered. They all were different (slightly) but all were good enough to hunt the way you described above.

RE: Does It REALLY Matter????
 

I had my old XI Demon at between 55-53lbs. I could shoot it all day long. (teeny little wheels)

When I ordered the Bowtech I had it set at 53lbs.

I seriously could not pull that puppy back more than once or twice in a row when it arrived.

Even now I can only shoot it about 30 times in a row before I start to lose feeling in my arm/hand.

Draw force or whatever.... there certainly is a huge difference for me. [:-]

RE: Does It REALLY Matter????
 

There's a difference. It's a theory as old as leverage, in fact it's exactly that. Move the fulcrum and it's either easier or harder even though it's the same weight.

RE: Does It REALLY Matter????
 

I find that it's easier to pull more weight early in the draw cycle than later in the draw cycle. The farther back my arm gets the weaker I seem to feel. In this sense, draw force curves are important to me. I wouldn't want to have maximum weight at the end of the draw cycle. That would be uncomfortable for me.

Another important factor is "how big is the valley?" Do you have some room to creep a tad, or will the bow want to jerk your arm off unless you maintain constant pressure against the wall.... If a deer is in front of you and you have to alter your position at full draw I'd want some valley to play with.

RE: Does It REALLY Matter????
 

Exactly, remove a bolt toruqed to 50 lbs. with a small wrench. Remove the same bolt with a large wrench. It's night and day. Thats gospel right there.

RE: Does It REALLY Matter????
 

The problem with that theory guys is it does not apply to thepull weight. That applies to the force weight the cams are placing on the limbs. While you are pulling 70 lbs the cams do the leverage and input far more force into the limbs. The fact that you are still pulling 70 lbs does not change.

This is why some bows are faster and more efficient than others but has NOTHING to do with draw weight. The scale does not lie, if it registers 70lbs then you are indeed pulling 70lbs at one point in the draw cycle. I don't care how much more or lessit's leveraging into the limbs.

This is the difference between the speed modules and the smooth modules BowTech offers I'm sure........but even with those, if your bow is set at 70lbs you're still pulling the same weight.;)

RE: Does It REALLY Matter????
 

Again, I understand different bows with different cam designs will draw some what differently but that's my questions, does it really matter?

I will ask again, if every bow offered only maxed out to 40lbs would people even care about draw cycle force?

At that point nobody would care ifone bow drew slightly different from the next because it would still be easy to shoot. It's only when you start to get close to what you can pull does this start to matter.;)

I still think that if it has come to the point that the draw curve of the bow is the deal breaker then you are way overbowed.

RE: Does It REALLY Matter????
 

BigJ12, I can tell you I purchase my Bows for the same reasons GregH does. It isALL about the draw curve. Now Ihave an old93# Jennings elephant bow with 50% let off, I can shoot this bow all day long, No Grunting, Belching, or Farting involved, bow arm pointing stright at target, and smooth draw stright to anchor point staying on target the whole time. Now I drew all the new bows the other day and thay were from 60 to 7o lb. Some, the peak draw weight was on the very back side, so your going stright from 70 to 14 lb with a 1" valley befor you hit the wall!! I could not keep these bows from jerking when thay broke over. (This is one reason the Whisker Biscut is such a popular rest these days!) So my Question is, why should I buy Brand A in a 60lb pull (because from what you said 70lb is to much for me) When I can buy brand B,with a good draw curve in 90lb without the Jerk? So for me it's all about the Draw Curve!

RE: Does It REALLY Matter????
 

Sliverflicker,

I don't recall saying 70lbs was too much for you, please post where I said that.

I also know about the drop intothe valley and yes there is a difference in the bows out there but I have yet to find one that "jerked" when the bow broke over to where I was worried about my arrow bouncing off of the rest or to where I could not keep it on target either.

You know as do most that there is only so much draw length the designers have to work with. In this, the cams need to build up and store the energyinto the limbs then drop into a reasonable valley in which to hold at full draw. This all needs to be done in a way that you are not pulling 70lbs in the first inch and dropping it all down in the last inch of draw so it's not like there is going to be a night and day difference from bow to bow.

Some are sharper than others, some valleys are more narrow, but there is only so much room the bow companies have to work with. I have yet to find one that can't be drawn slowly into the let off.

I can understand the reason for your example however my findings are no way near yours, I too can shoot a 100lb bow all day. Pulling a 70lb bow to me is as simple a cake and I have no problem with the let off into the valley of any bow.Maybe you need to work on your form.....I don't know.:eek:

RE: Does It REALLY Matter????
 

A few years ago(2002) I crashed my bike and injured my shoulder. At the time I was shooting a Golden Eagle set at 70 lbs
After my crash I could not draw it back without a lot of pulling,pain and making funny faces. I hear stuff moving,tearing in my shoulder.
I crashed the first Sunday of May and was thinking I was going to not be able to bowhunt that season come Oct.
Try as I might, drawing my GE hurt, a lot!
I went and looked for a new bow since 70 lbs was the minimum draw on my GE bow.
I picked up a Mathews FX and drew it back, no pain, no pulling,no funny faces needed.
I asked Roger what it was set at and said, 70 lbs. I did not believe him. We put it on the bow scale and sure enough, it was right at 70 lbs.
I had him back it off to 65 and bought it that day. Saved my season
Was it the curve? Heck I don't know, but it sure pulled easier than the old bow.

RE: Does It REALLY Matter????
 

I had the same thing happen to me when I was shopping for bows, one was so smooth I also didn't think it was all the way up to 70lbs. I think the differnet types of cams can and do make the draw "feel" lighter but I don't think iteffects the drawas much as we would like to think it doesbecause when it's all said and done we are indeed pulling (at some point) the amount the bow isset at. It's hard to tell someone that they didn't "feel" what they did. I'm glad you were able to find a bow that you could pull with your injury.

Again I still contend that if it has to come down to how the draw curve feels, I think the bow needs to be turned down and ego's put in check. Maybe I should put it this way....I don't think the draw curvecycle should matter as much as it does to most. How's that sound?

My sister-in-law hunted all year set at 42lbs andthe bow (Martin) did great on two deer. She started out at 50lbs and while she could pull it back it was right on the edge of where she was comfortable.She complained that at a certian point of the draw it was difficult for her to get past.When she dropped the weight she not only shot better but was able to feel more confident while hunting knowing she didn't have to worry about pulling her bow back on cold days after sitting still for a few hours. That confidence translated into two great kills for her.

RE: Does It REALLY Matter????
 

Your shoulder is the fulcrum. Have a bow peak from the get go and it will be hard. Letit build until your elbow gets back and the leverage will work for you. Same weight just more leverage. When at anchor the hand is over the shoulder (you holding the long end). The cycle starts with you holding the short end and trying to lift an object on the long end. Switch it and walla, there you have it. I'm sure it also has a lot to do with the kinds of stress that part of the body can handle and using it's strengths efficiently.

RE: Does It REALLY Matter????
 

I understand what you are trying to say however I'm not sure how it applies here.

Anywho, you have it slightly wrong...if I'm reading you correctly. The human body has FAR more strength when you start to pull. When your arm is moving back your ability to pull diminishes quickly. You no longer have the help of the large muscle group in your back and are pulling with more shoulder and arm muscles.The leverage at this point is against you. If there is one thing I know it's muscle/body dynamics and it's effect on lifting weights!

This is one reason why you see different types of lifting events in the World Strongest Man competition. It tests your overall muscle strength not just the basic lifts that only utilize the major muscle groups. I should know I competed in the west regional USA strongest man competition whenI was in college. I tried for a spot on the Worlds Strongest Man main event but fell short of making it (won in the sectional finalsbut lost in the regional finals). Had a great time though and got to pull a Grayhound bus!:D

RE: Does It REALLY Matter????
 

Why the Dig?

RE: Does It REALLY Matter????
 

I'm a fairly big guy.....DI catcher in college....yada, yada.....and I've endured shoulder surgery. I've also only been shooting a bow for a little over a year. I starte dout shooting 58#'s.I quickly went to 64 whenI trained those muscles.....then to 70 with my new allegiance.

My opinion.....if you can't set your sight pin on your target....and keep it on there smoothly during your draw cycle....you're over-bowed. I see guys on TV over-bowed (im MYopinion) ALL THE TIME.

Having a smooth draw cycle makes it more enjoyable for me to shoot. I shot 200+ arrows, last week. If I had to fight my bow.....I'd practice less. That's just being honest.

RE: Does It REALLY Matter????
 

Maybe try to sit back and listen to other views, before cutting down opinion. This has to do with the LEARNING CURVE.

I'm not a doctor, however, when I used traditional or compounds with eccentric wheels I had no problems with my draw side shoulder. However, when cams started to get more radical (draw force curve also changed dramatically),I started gettingproblems. Draw weight did not matter. I always shot between 60 and 70 pounds. Went back to traditional exclusively a few years agoand have not had any problems, even with my 74# longbow. Personally, I think this all has to do with the draw force curve.

RE: Does It REALLY Matter????
 

I totally understand what you are saying and to an extent I agree. I do believe that different bows with different style cams can make the drawsfeel different and I agree some are easier to draw even at the same weight.

My issue, and the point of my question is I feel alot of people have purchased bows with high poundage and maxed them out only to be just able to pull them back. Then and only then I contend the draw curve makes a difference. I have pulled alot of 60lb and 70 + pound bows back in my life time and I have yet to pull even the harshest of 60 pounders that even came close to the draw of a 70lb bow not even with the "Super Duper Butter Smooth Modules":D. You just can't hide 10lbs like that.

I'll say it again, if all of the bows maxed out at 40lbs NOBODY would be making draw cycle force a talking point. Why???? because it would be easy to draw, not because of the cams that are on it but because of the weight it is set at.

RE: Does It REALLY Matter????
 

I don't appreciate words being put into my mouth.

I apologize for the dig........but it was just a little one.:D

RE: Does It REALLY Matter????
 

BigJ I see what you are getting at. 70 is 70 is 70. If you are having trouble drawing a bow at 70 compared to another at 70, you are most likely over bowing your self and perhaps should bump her down 5 or 10 pounds rather to split hairs at the dealer deciding what bow to buy based on the draw characteristics .

But, I also see what the other guys are saying as well. I myself wouldn't want a very stout draw (no matter the poundage) that drastically drops off into the valley as this wouldbea uncomfortable transition to have such a sudden change in your draw force.



[/align]

RE: Does It REALLY Matter????
 

Jeff,

This was one of the reasons why I posted this question, I was watching a hunting show and the guy shooting had a hell of a time pulling his bow back. Later in the show he's talking to his buddy about his bow and says something to the effect of how he would like to try the smooth mods that are available forit. I don't need to tell you what bow he was shooting I think we all can figure it out plus it does not matter.

I sat there and thought to myself "how about turning that rig down a few lbs instead!"

RE: Does It REALLY Matter????
 

Wow, you just summed up what I have been trying to say........in two paragraphs!! thanks for showing me up:D I like a smooth bow just like the next guy, I have said that in this very thread.

I'll put it this way....If all bows were set to the correct poundage so that the shooter could draw with ease and keep on target the entire time, be able to shoot all day like this, I suspect draw forcewould not be as big a factor as it has become to some and thus.....wouldn't REALLY matter. Nice to have but not essential.

Gotta run...be back later

RE: Does It REALLY Matter????
 

Without knocking on any of you guys, I'm just glad I can't enjoy the intricate details that I read about in this thread. It seems that when I concentrate too much on these, it ruins my enjoyment of something. Being able to get a bow that I can afford, within budget, without taking food from my kids mouths makes buying one a fairly easy decision. I know there are differences, extreme and subtle, that cancontribute to long term enjoyment and accuracy.It's good to see and hear that people who can afford high dollar equipment actually look for something more than the price tag and prestige involved in owning it. I commend every one of you for this. Should the opportunity to get a new bow arise, I now know to focus on the draw back and pay attention to the details instead of the overall fit and feel. And I also believe that unless a flat out steal of a bargain comes along, I'll be shooting my $100 used bow for a while longer to save more toward a new, better than I would have bought, bow. I think in the long run, this thread will probably contribute to an extended period of enjoyment rather than regretting a purchase. Thank you.

RE: Does It REALLY Matter????
 

Don't worry Beezer, draw force curve is not new and applies to even older bows.........so does being overbowed, so feel free to join in!;)

Oh BTW, I have been at this archery thing since I was about seven, that's 35+/- years and I just purchased my first "brand new" bow ever so you still have time.