Are we really hunting anymore?
 

A couple of recent threads have started me thinking about the apparent changes inhunting philosophies over the last 60 years of my hunting experiences. A recent thread which virtually warned a newbie to stay out of bedding areas or the deer would leave, never to return, (my own literary license). Another which advises, in context, find a trail set up a tree stand and wait for them to come. Everyone seems to be in the trees in ambush mode these days, the extreme being rattling dem horns and shooting over feeders.

Some background, I'm 71 years young. I started with a 25# longbow on Christmas day of 1946 at the age of 11. I learned to hunt by tracking and stalking rabbits in the snow to an optimumdistance of 3 to 6 paces, (11 year old's) and shot only if I got that close without jumping them. They were needed to supplement the family larder so it was more than just a game to me. I killed a lot of rabbits in the next few years but what was most valuable to me wasthat I was devloping the skill to read sign, stalk, shoot, in other words, hunt.Those early years are what allowed me to track and stalk 5 whitetail bucksto their beds, three of which I took, one I nicked a branch that I had overlooked causing a clean miss and the other Iwatched for an hour because it was too thick to get an arrow through, all the while hoping he would get up and come out in my direction. He didn't...All 5 bucks were within 15paces and 1 was 8 1/2 paces. (adults) There were also many others that were taken while in their normal routine of nibbling and walking around at midday.

The point of the above is,those bucks were killed in their bedding areas. I regularly still hunted in those bedding areas. What was uncommon was that itwould take me2 to 2 1/2 hours to work through a 60 to 70 acre woodlot, depending on conditions, while others would take 15 to 20 minutes.

There's no question that it's easier and less complicated to throw a stand up in a tree and sit in wait but there is nothing to compare with going one on one on the ground. Those 5 deer gave me the greatest hunting thrills of my life. I recommend it to all of you.

By the way, I have killed deer out of trees, with and without stands so I'm not a fanatic but I'd trade 10 shots out of the trees for one that I've stalked.

Last point, I raised three bowhunters now in their 40's and I've got a new one, (bowhunter son)just turned 16. Although I much prefer longbows and recurves, we're both shooting Legacies with releases. The arthritis, hands and shoulders is a killer. Oh well, it's a lot better than the alternatives.

RE: Are we really hunting anymore?
 

Well said to some degree but I think your blanketing everyone by the statements of a few. Sorta profiling, if you will.

And welcome to the forums. I look forward to learning something from your 71 years young. Enjoy and please share.

RE: Are we really hunting anymore?
 

Thank you, Sir for your input. I agree, times have changed BUNCHES! New school, so to say. I was in the fire service for 10 years and much the same applies there as well. The "older" guys had their way and the "younger" guys had their way. I always used to say if we could get the 2 to mingle, and collectively put together those 2 styles, man alive, how good could we be!!???

I see younger guys coming up and just not pay any attention to the "old salts" at all. "What do they know?" they ask. I challenge them to sit with one and find out. What a wealth of information is to be had!!

You are right. Hunting is more for sport now than necessity.....Now, don't ya'll jump on me here, I know folks rely on the meat, no question. BUT, if need be, you could go to the store and buy some. Not in those days you couldn't, which is my only point. The equipment was much different, and in short, woodsmanship was MUCH more needed then than now....Not that it's not needed now though....I don't mean that either.

I've always been told to stay out of bedding areas as well. Hunt the "fringes." I've given serious thought to hunting one now that the season is running late, and almost over. You've just inspired me to do just that.

Welcome to HNI, and I certainly hope to hear more from you.

RE: Are we really hunting anymore?
 

It generally takes a LOT of skillto have perfected a bowhunting method from the ground and because of this reason, many of the deerhunters today, for one reason or another, prefer treestands. Of course some can do both, and may still prefer treestands for any number of reasons.


Definately the hunting business is geared towards "stand=hunting", as there is not much to sale somebody that really knows what they are doing:D;)

RE: Are we really hunting anymore?
 

Well I am that younger generation. I come from a long line of Non-hunters
wheather it was banned or considered wrong no one hunted. So i'm the first to tread into huntings new water. I am glad to hear you have passed your knowledge onto your kids. If us "rookies" sound ignorant and new school, Its because we are, but most of us are willing and eagerto learn
[hr]
You teach Ill learn

RE: Are we really hunting anymore?
 

That is what we are here for, after all. Welcome to the forum and I look forward to reading more of your excellent posts.

Merry Christmas and God Bless

RE: Are we really hunting anymore?
 

I've never taken a deer that didn't mean something to me. Doesn't matter to me how they were took. I wouldn't trade any of them.

Glad your here and look forward to reading more about a guy that's been hunting for so many seasons. Like to here more about how to stalk.

RE: Are we really hunting anymore?
 

i hunt there beds always have and always will but a tip is go on a trail in the bedding area and set up a blind now that is fun to me and we all have ur own definitions and that is just me now nice to meet you sir and have a nice holiday weekend

RE: Are we really hunting anymore?
 

Hunting for sport and hunting to eat are two very different circumstances. One must be way more aggresive when a familys belly is growling. I hunt somewhat to relax now as compared to when mom said go get a rabbit. I to look forward to more of your post.

RE: Are we really hunting anymore?
 

you are absolutely right!
I am 23 years old and I have tried the sit and wait, It is ok if you found and researched the area. (meaning with a trail camera and finding out when and where the deer are). It is ok but I have gotten more deer walking and stalking deer than waiting for them to come to me. I have tried lures, calling, scents, trail cameras, and rattling. I am better at stalking. It is also easier and more exciting to stalk than to sit.


JUST MAKE SURE YOU ARE CAREFULL WHEN DOING IT!!!!!

RE: Are we really hunting anymore?
 

I am intrested to know what weather conditions were when you took those 3 bucks in their beds. I would imagine that a fresh snow is easier to stalk 'cause you're just following fresh prints to their ends whereas stalking in dry conditions would be a great deal harder.

I'm certainly not ready for this type of hunting yet as I'm still relatively new to this but I'd like some tips for the future. Please share. Thank you.

RE: Are we really hunting anymore?
 

Sounds about right............most anyone out there could be ready to "hunt" within a couple days with current compounds. Pretty much all you have to be able to do is shoot reasonably well and not break your neck climbing the tree.

Congrats.........you sir, are playing a game that 99.9% of us are not familiar with.........myself included big time.


Technology eliminates the need for human input(skill).........always has, and always will. Most everything marketed to hunters these days is done so in an effort t make killing a deer easier. I say these things knowing full well that I tote more then my fair share of gadgets into the woods and spend tons of hours sitting in a tree waiting for one to walk by............I just don't kid myself into thinking it is something it is not.

Take away our toys and we would be wallpapering our houses with tags.

Don't know if that is good or bad or right or wrong........but I do know it is true.

RE: Are we really hunting anymore?
 

Do you have a mouse in your pocket atlas? [8D]

I spend a ton of time on the ground and understand that true still hunting is a lot harder than people think. It takes too much control not to move fast and to pay attention.

RE: Are we really hunting anymore?
 

I don't get it.

RE: Are we really hunting anymore?
 

You serious? Nevermind............:eek:

RE: Are we really hunting anymore?
 

I enjoyed the gentlemans post and look forward to more from him.All of us young,old,experienced,inexperienced want to learn more to understand more and so on.I have tremendous respect for those that can stalk deer and consistently kill them with any weapon,much less archery equipment.
In the high pressure area's I typically archery hunt I am very reluctant to bump a mature buckfrom his bedding area.There are to few mature bucks in my area's to run the risk of letting one know that I am hunting it.I find it enough of a challenge to consistently put big deer on the ground.

RE: Are we really hunting anymore?
 

MonsterBuckDreams,
Of the 5 bucks that Ireferred to above,3 were tracked in the snow andone I picked up in the mud of a picked corn field and tracked him up the edge ofstream to his bed. Kind of a print here, someoverturned leaves there, another print with water still seeping in, etc.. Total distance about 400 to 500 yards. He was the one I missed. The other was not really a tracking job. I was still hunting through a small woodlot, maybe 80 acres, with a very strong wind blowing. I was moving verrry slowly when I came to a blowdown. I eased my way around it studying everything in about a 300* arc when I noticed something different. I really didn't know what it was but it caught my attention. I kept looking away from the object and back again several times and finally I realized I was looking at the eye of a deer. After several more minutes I could make out his head and shoulders but his rack was not visible through the brush and saplings so I moved slowly to a position where I could get a good look at him but still could not get an arrow in there. He was the one that eventually walked away.

Somethingthat I noticed in all of the deer that I've seen asleepis thata thin membrane comes down over the eye like an eyelid. However it's transparent or transluscentnot opaque. It seems as though they rely on sound and smell during this period and not sight, (their ears are constantly turning like antennas and you can see the nostrils flaring as they take in scents). So if you're very careful, one can move. In the case of the first deer I killed in bed, I tracked him in the snow and first saw him laying down quartering about 30 yards away. No shot.So I crawled to a broken tree trunk between him and me. When I got there I was only 11 paces (measured later) but I couldn't figure out how to shoot. I was on my knees, he was laying down, as result , no angle. So, I decided to try and stand up slowly and get a shot off. I drew my recurve behind the stump and slowly stood up. He was looking right at me but evidently could not see me. I could clearly see the membrane so it gave me insight in future hunts.Key points: Make sure you're in an area known to harbor deer, move very slowy then stop and scan ahead as far as you can see and then back to a few feet ahead, then back out as far as you can see, stop then do it all over again.

I grew up incentral NY. Great farming countrynot too different from most of the midwest. Corn, wheat, milo, woodlots, hedgerows, etc.. I never have been too successful in the, "big woods" areas. Haven't had the experience in patterning in those environments. Hope I haven't bored you too much.

laxdad

RE: Are we really hunting anymore?
 

Heaven's no, Sir...you surely have NOT.....anytime you feel like sharing..PLEASE do.....Excellent story.

RE: Are we really hunting anymore?
 

Yup..........can't say I ever heard that expression before.

RE: Are we really hunting anymore?
 

atlasman, when someone says "we" like you did in the quote....someone says, We? What do you have a mouse in your pocket?....meaning there has to be two of you to say we, you and who else....you and the mouse in your pocket otherwise it's I.

Hell that was confusing in itself.

RE: Are we really hunting anymore?
 

Hell around here we say, Are you pregnant or got a turd in your pocket?

RE: Are we really hunting anymore?
 

See........thats what I like about this forum,Rob and mobow I thought you guys were going to tear laxdad apart, you know, I use to walk to school uphill in 2 ft of snow uphill both ways,Instead everyone respects the experience of true stalk hunting and is more than willing to accept and learn the old ways. what I mean is, lets face it most of us just hang a treestand and wait.........and it still is a challenge,imagine stalking up on a deer bedded, a mature deer at that. Laxdad, welcome aboard, and I am looking forward to hearing more of your experiences.

RE: Are we really hunting anymore?
 

I have never heard that expression before...........and truthfully when I started reading your explanation I thought you were gonna say that when someone says "we".........it is a sound someone with a mouse in his pocket might make

I said "we" because I meant "we"

RE: Are we really hunting anymore?
 

Rob's just happy he is not the oldest one here anymore :eek:

RE: Are we really hunting anymore?
 

Thanks Rob! Sorry to confuse you Atlas! [8D]

RE: Are we really hunting anymore?
 

very and I mean VERY FEW people possess the patience and skill required to stalk like that... by no means do I intend to compare ambush, treestand hunting to stalking... but take it from someone who's struck out more times than I can count... it aint exactly easy neither... My hat is off to anyone who takes a deer with a bow... period...

Most especially those though who stalk them.

RE: Are we really hunting anymore?
 

laxdad has posted 6 posts and i have learned so much so far:):Dlookin forward to more posts

RE: Are we really hunting anymore?
 

Laxdad,

Welcome to the forum. I have to say, you are like a breath of fresh air.What I mean is, it is good to hear from someone new that has a different perspective on things and experiences to share.You speak(type) in a gentlemanly fashon.You've gain respect right away on here. We've all noticed that. I admire that.In your 71 years, I'm sure there are lots to be said. I look forward to hearing it.

RE: Are we really hunting anymore?
 

RE: Are we really hunting anymore?
 

and don't forget, lax did it (X3) with a longbow

On that note, imagine if someone could stalk turkey and stickem with a longbow.

Oooh or how about with a spear? Better yet, an armyknife? Best yet, a rock!

JK, but seriously though, I think someday I'd like to try stalking. Maybe I'll start out in fresh snow.

RE: Are we really hunting anymore?
 

Laxdad, I hunt mostly from the ground, and Ive taken many deer still hunting, stalking, or just sitting on the ground and waiting for one to show up.Ive tracked deer as you have for miles through the snow, and Ill admitt most times it doesnt end for me with a kill, sometimes I lose the track completely, sometimes all I find at the end is a warm melted out bed and know Ive screwed up and been busted.

Im not nearly as old as you and havent near your experience.But I guesse I look at treestand hunting and its popularity a little differently.When I started hunting it was at a time when there was an open door policy for much of the land, you could hunt almost anywhere without worrying about tresspassing or running into posted ground.If you did ask a farmer or landowner for permission it was almost a strange thing for them, nobody cared where you hunted and theyd just give you a funny look and tell you to go ahead, most times theyd tell you you didnt need to ask every year.There were a few places then that didnt like hunters and everyone knew which ones they were and just steered clear of them.

Growing up hunting in these conditions was a kids dream, you could just walk out your back door and keep walking till you got what you were after, if you scared the game you could go on and find more, or pick up the track and go after it..Fast forward to today, everythings posted or leased, most guys have small chunks of land they have access to limited time to hunt.It can be difficult to get legally shot game back if it so much as crosses a property line.

When I see everyone hunting out of stands or a younger person warning against something like hunting a deer bedding area its usually because of these reasons.With limited ground to hunt trying to learn the art of still hunting, or stalking or hunting where the deer are bedding you risk the chance of chasing deer off a property that may not hold a lot of deer to begin with.Often these daystheres not the option of just moving on to a more productive area if you burn one out.

Im lucky, we have miles of public ground and 20 years worth of landowners that Ive connected with that will let me hunt.I can still hunt that way and if I do happen to mess up bad enough to run the deer out I can move on untill they come back into that area.Ive killed over 20 deer from the ground with a bow without the use of blinds or anything.Im not bragging, just leading up to my next thought.Even with that many kills I dont consider myself really good at hunting them from the ground, I still bump deer, I still get into positions where everything goes well but I cant shoot, sometimes I just flat out make bad decisions.Had I grown up only having 10,20, or even 100 acres to hunt Id have probably never gotten the limited skills I do posses now much less the chance to get really good at it.

RE: Are we really hunting anymore?
 

I wasn't confused.

RE: Are we really hunting anymore?
 

I grew up in the Adirondacks much the same as you. Poor family with 5 kids, about 2 1/2 acres of gardens, ran a trap line, raised our own chickens for eggs and food, picked and canned everything that grew wild(didn't have a freezer so you had to can) I'd unload the bus, be stripping off "My School clothes" so I could get in an hour or two of hunting. Our season went from walleyes in the spring to bullheads to partridge, to rabbits and deer, to snow shoe rabbits, the trap line twice a dayand back to walleyes. Did it until I went off to college and got drafted. My hunting style has changed for a couple reasons. One, time restraints. Todays families are hustle bussle from sun up to midnight. Land restraints limit how much sneaking and peaking most of us can do today. Most of us could only stalk for about 15 minutes and we'd be on posted ground and arrested. You can't do a lot of stalking on 25 and 50 acre patches. You sit and wait for the deer passing through in most cases. Even those lucky enough to have a sizeable chunk of ground have to share it. Nothing creates more hard feelings than sitting in a tree with deer around you and have someone come walking through scaring them away. Many more hunters today. In the old days deer herds were dismal by todays standards. Bow kills were also dismal. The guy who got a shot was lucky. You had to cover ground or you might see nothing for days. In those days you pretty much could hunt where you choose when you choose. A lot of the stalking was done in conjunction with drives. There were few if any bowhunters. There were no posted signs. Today the smart choice with so many animals is to sit and wait in most cases. It's not hunting as it was 40 years ago, but it is hunting the "SMART" way today. THe animals often don't realize you're around. You can let them pass and take your pick or wait for a specific animal. In the days 40 years ago it was, "If he has horns you shoot him". No need for that today. I don't think we've necessarily forgot how to hunt. I think we've learned a new and more efficient way given our personnal time restraints, land restraints, traspass laws etc. Oh it would be great to set out and not have to worry about crossing a property line or messing up the other guys in the woods. Today we work further from home, the kids have more time restraints parents are involved in. It's just the times. My brother still stalks the Adirondacks. The boy can't sit still. He doesn't bow hunt, but piles up a ton of deer meat every year. It took me 15 years to get him in a tree. He'll sit there until the sun is up and then he's moving.

RE: Are we really hunting anymore?
 

Great post Dave!

RE: Are we really hunting anymore?
 

Not that I was but I did get a chuckle from that one.

Double Creek, I agree, good post Dmil.

RE: Are we really hunting anymore?
 

Indians are many times credited with being the "ultimate hunters", but I would like to point out that when Europeans came to North America and brought horses and firearms, Indians were quick to adopt the use of them.

It is perfectly normal for any animal, including humans to look for a way to make the hunting kill more efficient, in other words easy.

In modern times, we have reached a point where technology has required game laws to regulate equipment and methods for taking game. Otherwise people would be using helecopters and machine guns to harvest trophy bucks.

Indians used to herd buffalos and force them off of cliffs so they would fall to their deaths. I assume they did this because it was easier to harvest a large number of animals with minimal effort.

RE: Are we really hunting anymore?
 

This is a great thread.
laxdad, you feel free to post as much and as often as you want. I could read your stuff all day. Thx for sharing.

RE: Are we really hunting anymore?
 

Petsux/Davidmil,

Excellent posts and very reflective of the changes that have occurred inourhunting environments over the last, "n" years. Trying to keep track of which of you said what is too difficult so I'll address your very similar posts in general. First, MOST BY FAR of my hunts ended at a warm or steaming bed that was empty. That's part of the thrill when you are successful.

I never tracked an animal for miles! Because of the speed, or lack thereof, at which I would move while stalking, I could not spend hours on a track. Just like today, time was a valuable commodity and I would not waste it on on animal that may be heading for parts unknown. I, like most of you, scouted, (and still scout) an area to locate feeding, travel and bedding areas. Around 9:00 -9:30 AM I would and still do,circle the feeding area looking for a single, good sized track that was heading for an area that was known to hold beds. Then, if the terrain was conducive, I'd circle the bedding area forthatparticular track to be coming out. If it came out and headed into another area on land that I could hunt, I stayed on the track. If not, I went to another feeding area and started over. This technique is one that I developed hunting rabbits. Find fresh tracks going into a field, find none or fewer coming out and the odds were high one was somewhere in that field.

If, however, the particular track could not be found coming out, like rabbit hunting,I felt pretty confident that the animal was still in that particularbedding area. Did I get confused at times by the number of different tracks? You bet I did!! Did I get on a track and come up empty?? You bet!! Probably 10 times to every time I caught up to the animalpursued. Did the animal sometimes turn out to be a doe and not a buck? Absolutely!! (I only hunt bucks six points and up so the season would last and I'd get more time in the field. In the beginning of the season it's 10s or better. Sixes were and are reserved for the last couple of weeks.)

All of your combined points are valid. I will dispute one though and that's your conclusion that small 20-50 acre patches are not productive. In my experience they are some of the most productive, especially as pressure increases. You may protectyour "ideal" areas from incursion but I can guarantee others including the landowner will be in there cutting firewood, logging, etc.. In addition, what happens when everyone gets out of their treestands and heads for home at 8:30 AM? Notice the time I'd get serious about the time (9:30)to begin still hunting? The woods are emptying out and they'll quiet down until mid afternoon. A great time to test your skills.

By the way, I'm from the finger lakes area of NY, not the adirodack park region. Like I said, I've never been very successful in the "big" woods. I'm a farm area hunter.

And PLEASE, everyone has their own style and I do respect it. I've just attempted to offer alternatives to techniques that many of you are using. Also, I an NO expert on deer hunting. Just a man that has spent a lot of time in the outdoors enjoying himself and has been successful in teaching his sons to have a great respect for what is still available to us, even if it is different than it used to be. I've never been about killing but I've always been about hunting.

Forgive me while I babble on, but I've found gaining permission to hunt is more successful if I am cleanly shaved and in neat hunting clothes when I'm in front of the landowner. I think it may be the notion that if a person takes care of his/her appearence, then the they may respect the property as well.

I'm very self conscious of the length and tone of my posts but I'm doing the best I can. I am attempting to avoid being critical and do not want to start any p---ing contests. I am also overwhelmed by the interest in my posts. Thank you all for an exceptionally warm reception to this forum and if you're all good and I get some time today, I'll start a new thread entitled, " My Christmas Bow". After all,t'is the season......

Merry Christmas/Happy Holidays,

laxdad

RE: Are we really hunting anymore?
 

And you did it well. No P---ing contest going on in this thread. Agreed, 25-50 acre patches are probably ideal since you can cover the whole area and if the deer are there you should find them. Use the wind and the old 1 step... wait 3 steps would do well. And yes, most such ventures do end up in failure, but like you say.... it is a rush. I've shot a few deer will sneaking and peaking, but honestly most successes for me in this were happening upon and seeing an approaching animal before he saw me. My closest such success was at a distance of 7 feet. He was the 11 deer in a line that were passing through, and it was in a 35 acre patch. I was bowhunting and sneaking and peaking to try and herd some deer toward a couple muzzleloader hunters. The watchers herded them my way because of the wind direction change. He'll always be one of my favorite deer.

RE: Are we really hunting anymore?
 

laxdad- Very good stuff, thanks for the posts.

I absolutely love pooching around still hunting. To me it is the ultimate in hunting. To be able to stalk and kill a whitetail on their grounds with a bow is really cool. I've been succesfull in the past with it. I've never killed a big mature buck on the ground, but I have taken several deer. I am partial to still hunting in a standing corn field :D;).

Where abouts in the Fingerlakes area laxdad? I hunt around Auburn/Throop/Sennett area.