Go Back  HuntingNet.com Forums > Archery Forums > Bowhunting
 Heavy arrow, more KE....light arrow, more speed..?? >

Heavy arrow, more KE....light arrow, more speed..??

Bowhunting Talk about the passion that is bowhunting. Share in the stories, pictures, tips, tactics and learn how to be a better bowhunter.

Heavy arrow, more KE....light arrow, more speed..??

Old 12-22-2006, 02:58 AM
  #51  
Boone & Crockett
 
Rickmur's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 1997
Location: Cheasapeke and Delaware Bay Region
Posts: 10,485
Default RE: Heavy arrow, more KE....light arrow, more speed..??

And I honestly think they hear the arrow more than the bow.
Rob, I don't know about that. I have stood behind the side of a barn while someone shot arrows downrange. When they went past my location I could hear them go by, especially the ones with vanes, feathers wern't too bad but still could be heard. Reliezing this I poked my head around the corner and couldn't hear the arrow coming but did so as they passed by. So I question weather a deer can hear the arrow coming at him or not, but then again I am hard of hearing or as I perfer to say it, I have selective hearing.
Rickmur is offline  
Old 12-22-2006, 07:17 AM
  #52  
Fork Horn
 
whitetailsoldier's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Woodstock, ILLINOIS
Posts: 243
Default RE: Heavy arrow, more KE....light arrow, more speed..??

I go with the need for speed!!
I saw my buddy shot at a doe and the doe turned its head before the arrow got there, he's only pulling back 50 or so pounds w/ alluminum arrows. The point is they both do the trick.
Confidence is the key. Whatever gets the job done. And heavy and light arrows both do the job. It's personal preference.
whitetailsoldier is offline  
Old 12-22-2006, 07:21 AM
  #53  
Boone & Crockett
 
Germ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Michigan/Ohio
Posts: 11,682
Default RE: Heavy arrow, more KE....light arrow, more speed..??

ORIGINAL: whitetailsoldier

I go with the need for speed!!
yes but look what happen toGoose[&:]
Germ is offline  
Old 12-22-2006, 07:52 AM
  #54  
Dominant Buck
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Blossvale, New York
Posts: 21,199
Default RE: Heavy arrow, more KE....light arrow, more speed..??

I haven't had a complete passthru in 5 bucks. Exit holes yes, arrow out of the deer, no
I don't know that that's necessarily NOT a good thing. I'm sure the arrow in their slapping and flopping might cause some deer along the way to take and extra spurt in his flight, but probably not. What that arrow hanging out both sides would do is work on the holes to keep them open and probably allow more blood to get to the ground. IF the arrow penetrates both sides in the beginning, as far as I'm concerned you're good to go with a blood trail. I would think it's a matter of time before one doesn't go all the way through though. The 8 point I shot this year the arrow passed through and stuck in root system below ground level of a maple. I worked up a sweat getting it out.
davidmil is offline  
Old 12-22-2006, 08:17 AM
  #55  
Nontypical Buck
 
huntingson's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Southwest Ohio
Posts: 2,849
Default RE: Heavy arrow, more KE....light arrow, more speed..??

There are a lot of good points in this thread. My thoughts are that with my set up (see signature) I get somewhere in the mid to high60's ft-lbs of KE. That has resulted in complete pass throughs of adult elk, caribou, white tail, and mule deer. The only non-pass through was a far shoulder stick on a whitetail buck last year and a near shoulder hit a few years ago[:@]. My largest bull caribou was quartering away, the arrow entered just in front of the rear rib and exited just behind the far shoulder (about 2 feet or moreof caribou) and still had enough on it to stick in a tree behind him. I had a complete pass through on a mule deer buck at 42 yards and the arrow was sticking a couple inches in the ground.Thus, I conclude that the mid 60'sis plenty of KE for hunting any North American big game. Like David, I have a short draw length and must therefore try to squeeze every bit of weight off my arrow that I can in order to get the speed that I want to be able to have one pin out to 30 yards.

This does bring up how ludicrous it is to have draw weight minimums instead of KE minimums. I don't think anyone would argue that a 60 pound recurve shoots less KE on average than a 45 pound compound. So, CO and other states allow people to hunt with the recurves but you also have to have a 60 pound compound... stupid, stupid, stupid.

Rob, I think your non-pass throughs have to be broadhead related seeing as how you have 30% more KE than me and I am getting them on larger animals.Either that or you hit the far shoulder every time and are the man.

I'm no expert, this is just what I think.
huntingson is offline  
Old 12-22-2006, 08:45 AM
  #56  
Fork Horn
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Western NY
Posts: 148
Default RE: Heavy arrow, more KE....light arrow, more speed..??

I've pretty much come to the conclusion that KE is nothing more than a tool that bow manufacturers use to sell new bows. Kinetic energy, in a simplified formula is mass x velocity squared. So this formula leans more towards the speed of an arrow. When it comes to killing a deer, what I believe is far more important is momentum, which is mass x velocity. Why? because when you kill a deer you want the arrow to smash and break any bones, ie ribs, in the way of gettting to the heart lung area. That's why heavier arrows have more momentum, and penetrate further. The faster an object goes, the harder it has to hit in order to have the same penetration. That is why a rifle bullet will stop in a bucket of sand, but an arrow will go through.

The trade off of course is that a faster lighter arrow is more flat shooting, but it can also be louder. A heavier arrow will usually be quieter, but you have to aim higher to shoot farther, so to speak.

In the end, what matters most is shot placement. However, a heavier arrow will kill a deer better than a lighter arrow in my opinion.

Just my $.02. Would love to talk with a physicsguy about this,

c_str is offline  
Old 12-22-2006, 09:27 AM
  #57  
Giant Nontypical
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 9,175
Default RE: Heavy arrow, more KE....light arrow, more speed..??

Well, I know everyone's been expecting me to post up on this'n and I hate to disappoint, so...[8D]

Everyone seems to finally concede that heavier arrows penetrate better in all situations, so the debate is how far in the mud do you want to bury the arrow after it passes through, right? I agree that light arrows will generally do the job on thin skinned, medium size game like deer. Generally. But stuff happens. A little extra weight in the arrow could mean the difference between a short blood trail and a long one. I'd rather bury the arrow a little deeper in the mud on a solid passthru than be in a situation where I need the extra penetration and not have it.

Next, I hate it when I hear someone say they want to shoot light and fast so the arrow will go exactly where they want it. Since a heavy arrow will shoot exactly where it's aimed as well, I can only assume what they mean is they expect the speed and trajectory to bail their arses out when they screw up their yardage estimation. Stinkin' thinkin'!

If you can't judge yardage, buy a flippin' rangefinder AND USE IT!

With whitetail deer being taken at somewhere around 18 yards, on the national average, speed and flat trajectory is a bunch of baloney. There is no trajectory advantage that close. Time of flight between a 300 fps arrow and a 250 fps arrow at 18 yards is something like two one-hundredths of a second. Less than a blink of the eyes. The deer isn't going to move more than an inch further trying to dodge the slow arrow vs the fast one.

And if the heavier arrow is quieter, Mr Antlers might not hear it in time to dodge at all.

If you want speed to flatten out the trajectory for taking pot shots at 40-50 yards and beyond, again, that's stinkin' thinkin'. First, you are admitting to the world that you're so crappy a hunter you can't get within solid bow range of the animal and you'd be better off with a nice little carbine instead of a bow. Besides that, that light, fast arrow will bleed off MUCH more of it's energy than the heavier one will over that much distance.

Just to make some rough comparisons, I ran a few arrows through the ballistics program at www.bowjackson.com I adjusted them all to 70 ft lbs of energy at the bow but, in reality, the heavier arrows will actually have more than that:

350 gn arrow
0 yards 350 fps 70 ft lbs
50 yards 275 fps 59 ft lbs

400 gn arrow
0 yards 280 fps 70 ft lbs
50 yards 260 fps 60 ft lbs

500 gn arrow
0 yards 252 fps 70 ft lbs
50 yards 238 fps 63 ft lbs

800 gn arrow (just to be silly [8D])
0 yards 199 fps 70 ft lbs
50 yards 193 fps 66 ft lbs

The 350 gn arrow loses 75 fps and 11 ft lbs of energy over 50 yards. The 800 gn arrow loses only 6 fps and 4 ft lbs over the same 50 yards.

Now, why do the heavier arrows retain more speed and energy downrange than the light ones? Because light arrows can't even penetrate AIR better than heavy ones. Why? Because air resistance increases the faster the projectile goes. Ever stuck your hand out the car window at 70 mph and noticed how much harder it is to hold it against the wind than it is when you're driving 30 mph? Faster speed, greater resistance. Duh!

It takes more of the light arrow's energy to overcome resistance. It's also going to need significantly more energy to penetrate as well as the heavier, slower arrow when it gets to the animal. (Flesh gives a lot more resistance than air, ya know.)

I'm not about to tell anyone what arrows to use, as long as they have some clue about how arrows and penetration works. Some people like skating on the thin edge, some like the odds stacked more in their favor. Always been that way, always will be. I'm pretty darn conservative and like to maximize my penetration potential because I've run into far too many situations in the woods where Murphy did his level best to kick my butt.

Heavier arrows are not any kind of disadvantage to me. I can judge yardage, and I'm good enough of a hunter to get close enough so that trajectory is a non-issue anyway (30 yards and less). And the challenge of getting close is why I choose to hunt with a bow instead of a rifle. To top it off, I've almost exclusively chosen to use a recurve or longbow over the years instead of a compound. And I shoot barebow (not 'instinctive.' There's a difference), so I'm visualizing the trajectory in my mind while I'm aiming.

I use trajectory as an aiming device and, besides that, there are few things in hunting I think are as beautiful as the flight of an arrow. I pity those poor sods who shoot arrows so light and so fast they can't see their arrows, because I think they are truly missing out on something special.

Anyway, to get back to the point... Bottom line is, if you're going to shoot light arrows, you darn sure BETTER be putting out a butt load of energy, 'cuz you're gonna need it. If you're using a bow that's not putting out that much energy, then you're doing yourself and the animals you hunt a huge favor by going up in arrow weight.


Arthur P is offline  
Old 12-22-2006, 09:32 AM
  #58  
Boone & Crockett
 
Germ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Michigan/Ohio
Posts: 11,682
Default RE: Heavy arrow, more KE....light arrow, more speed..??

ORIGINAL: Arthur P

Well, I know everyone's been expecting me to post up on this'n and I hate to disappoint, so...[8D]

Everyone seems to finally concede that heavier arrows penetrate better in all situations, so the debate is how far in the mud do you want to bury the arrow after it passes through, right? I agree that light arrows will generally do the job on thin skinned, medium size game like deer. Generally. But stuff happens. A little extra weight in the arrow could mean the difference between a short blood trail and a long one. I'd rather bury the arrow a little deeper in the mud on a solid passthru than be in a situation where I need the extra penetration and not have it.

Next, I hate it when I hear someone say they want to shoot light and fast so the arrow will go exactly where they want it. Since a heavy arrow will shoot exactly where it's aimed as well, I can only assume what they mean is they expect the speed and trajectory to bail their arses out when they screw up their yardage estimation. Stinkin' thinkin'!

If you can't judge yardage, buy a flippin' rangefinder AND USE IT!

With whitetail deer being taken at somewhere around 18 yards, on the national average, speed and flat trajectory is a bunch of baloney. There is no trajectory advantage that close. Time of flight between a 300 fps arrow and a 250 fps arrow at 18 yards is something like two one-hundredths of a second. Less than a blink of the eyes. The deer isn't going to move more than an inch further trying to dodge the slow arrow vs the fast one.

And if the heavier arrow is quieter, Mr Antlers might not hear it in time to dodge at all.

If you want speed to flatten out the trajectory for taking pot shots at 40-50 yards and beyond, again, that's stinkin' thinkin'. First, you are admitting to the world that you're so crappy a hunter you can't get within solid bow range of the animal and you'd be better off with a nice little carbine instead of a bow. Besides that, that light, fast arrow will bleed off MUCH more of it's energy than the heavier one will over that much distance.

Just to make some rough comparisons, I ran a few arrows through the ballistics program at www.bowjackson.com I adjusted them all to 70 ft lbs of energy at the bow but, in reality, the heavier arrows will actually have more than that:

350 gn arrow
0 yards 350 fps 70 ft lbs
50 yards 275 fps 59 ft lbs

400 gn arrow
0 yards 280 fps 70 ft lbs
50 yards 260 fps 60 ft lbs

500 gn arrow
0 yards 252 fps 70 ft lbs
50 yards 238 fps 63 ft lbs

800 gn arrow (just to be silly [8D])
0 yards 199 fps 70 ft lbs
50 yards 193 fps 66 ft lbs

The 350 gn arrow loses 75 fps and 11 ft lbs of energy over 50 yards. The 800 gn arrow loses only 6 fps and 4 ft lbs over the same 50 yards.

Now, why do the heavier arrows retain more speed and energy downrange than the light ones? Because light arrows can't even penetrate AIR better than heavy ones. Why? Because air resistance increases the faster the projectile goes. Ever stuck your hand out the car window at 70 mph and noticed how much harder it is to hold it against the wind than it is when you're driving 30 mph? Faster speed, greater resistance. Duh!

It takes more of the light arrow's energy to overcome resistance. It's also going to need significantly more energy to penetrate as well as the heavier, slower arrow when it gets to the animal. (Flesh gives a lot more resistance than air, ya know.)

I'm not about to tell anyone what arrows to use, as long as they have some clue about how arrows and penetration works. Some people like skating on the thin edge, some like the odds stacked more in their favor. Always been that way, always will be. I'm pretty darn conservative and like to maximize my penetration potential because I've run into far too many situations in the woods where Murphy did his level best to kick my butt.

Heavier arrows are not any kind of disadvantage to me. I can judge yardage, and I'm good enough of a hunter to get close enough so that trajectory is a non-issue anyway (30 yards and less). And the challenge of getting close is why I choose to hunt with a bow instead of a rifle. To top it off, I've almost exclusively chosen to use a recurve or longbow over the years instead of a compound. And I shoot barebow (not 'instinctive.' There's a difference), so I'm visualizing the trajectory in my mind while I'm aiming.

I use trajectory as an aiming device and, besides that, there are few things in hunting I think are as beautiful as the flight of an arrow. I pity those poor sods who shoot arrows so light and so fast they can't see their arrows, because I think they are truly missing out on something special.

Anyway, to get back to the point... Bottom line is, if you're going to shoot light arrows, you darn sure BETTER be putting out a butt load of energy, 'cuz you're gonna need it. If you're using a bow that's not putting out that much energy, then you're doing yourself and the animals you hunt a huge favor by going up in arrow weight.
This is the greatest post I have ever read!!!!
Germ is offline  
Old 12-22-2006, 09:50 AM
  #59  
Giant Nontypical
 
BobCo19-65's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location:
Posts: 7,571
Default RE: Heavy arrow, more KE....light arrow, more speed..??

opps
BobCo19-65 is offline  
Old 12-22-2006, 10:43 AM
  #60  
Nontypical Buck
 
huntingson's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Southwest Ohio
Posts: 2,849
Default RE: Heavy arrow, more KE....light arrow, more speed..??

"If you want speed to flatten out the trajectory for taking pot shots at 40-50 yards and beyond, again, that's stinkin' thinkin'. First, you are admitting to the world that you're so crappy a hunter you can't get within solid bow range of the animal and you'd be better off with a nice little carbine instead of a bow." -Arthur P

That's hilarious. You really have no clue do you? I get so tired of this crap on here. There are so many self proclaimed experts who are the world's best hunters. It is nice to touch base with absolutely great hunters like you so I can learn so much. 40 yards? You really cosider that a pot shot. Perhaps you are a terrible shot but that is a slam dunk shot as far as I am concerned. Oh well, let's not start the long range shot thing again... You really could be a great hunter, but you make yourself sound like an arrogant ass making statements like that. I bet you are thinking deer too and probably from a stand. There are a lot of times when stalking game that not needing to know if they are 20 or 30 is a huge advantage because you don't have time to bring up your range finder. Of course, I am sure you know that. What could you possibly learn from someone else?

The numbers are higher down range for a heavier arrow there is no arguing that. However, if my lighter arrow passes through a quartering away mule deer at 43 yards and sticks in the ground at 59 ft-lbs then who cares? The numbers may be higher, but you also have to look at the physical results from those numbers, which no one does. They think higher KE must be better, but in reality anything higher is basically useless because it is already going to go all the way through anything except perhaps something like a moose or grizzly.
huntingson is offline  

Quick Reply: Heavy arrow, more KE....light arrow, more speed..??


Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service -

Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.