GR8atta2d

Yeah Figured that was coming.... I love camo..I can't wait to see the new stuff coming soon. I just hate to see the slams (intended or not) to the Bill Jordans and Toxey Haas' of the world. These guys were pioneers. We'd still be wearing Army Fatigues if it wasn't for them.Now that, that stuff has saturated the market, and everyone has it..what? it's no good? People kill more deer in one day in advantage camo than in an entire season of Engima (or any other upstart). Is engima great? sure it is (going by your reviews)! But lets no degrade the folks who got us there and set the bar.

Rob, you hold a position of some influence..and you use it to bolster companies products. I will also say, withrespect, thatI'm sure you don't do it for free..you'd be a fool if you did. I'm not saying that they directly send you check. But I bet you don't pay sticker for many hunting supplies. You may even have a band of "me too" guys who will back up your every word for a nice discount.. Yeah put me on the list I'll sing the praises too! I'm not above that!

As for ASAT did the product just turn bad? The pattern suddenly isn't as good as it was a year ago?? Doubtful, I imaginesome aspect of the business agreementfell apart. So find another company to promote..same guy, perhaps.. just different company and slightly altered product and all is well and good.

As for the Badatta2d part..maybe..maybe not.Maybe it's the fact that seasons are ending but everyone is looking to stir that crap then when I take a spoonful..I'm the bad guy. I don't start these threads. I'm just not a tongue biter. I'm gonna tell ya my side. Obviously, I took a lot of liberties in my assumptions but I bet I'm more right than wrong?? Rebuttal??

Washington Hunter

It isn't so much that those brands/patterns are no longer any good. As time has gone on we've come to understand better how the game we pursue see the world.

Open patterns such as Enigma, ASAT, and Predator allow for our outlines to be broken up. While the big name cmoflauges still do this, they only do it to an extent and not a great one at that.

The market is saturated with these brand names, you're right. But the same points you're making about Rob can be said about any big name celebrity. How many hundreds of hunters out there wear a certain brand of camoflauge clothing because [insert well known figure's name here] wears it? Quite a few I bet.

And about you not being a tongue biter...

Ever hear the expression that it's not what you say its how you say it?

You can speak your mind without coming off confrontational. Just an idea.

Rob/PA Bowyer

Rebuttal hhmmm,

Now, I haven't read all the posts herein but I don't recall see any slams of Bill or Toxey. They certainly are pioneers but I believe we would still see the open patterns of today. If you didn't know, ASAT was invented in the early 80's just before Toxey's MO but it was the eye appeal of MO that won over science. Bill's been around for sure, but again, eye appeal camo. In the same aspect of what your saying, isn't it true that deer were killed wearing Woolrich red and black plaid? Prolly more than RT and still can be however, it's not such a great idea when moving or hunting turkeys, deer have evolved, adapted. Deer didn't use to look up in trees, today they do.

To some perhaps, to others, not in the least. I don't use my position to bolster any company's products, at least no more or less than I would if I were a member and I don't consider it bolstering as much as I do recommending fantastic products. I don't recommend anything that I wouldn't use myself or anything I don't believe in. If I didn't believe in it, I would never suggest it, take MO and RT for instances, I used them, they failed me from time to time, I don't find them to be at the top of the heep in that industry. I never stop looking for a better product and when I find one, I use it. Same for broadheads, sights, bows, treestands, scopes, turkey guns etc....I push, bolster what I researched and use as superior in their field, as my experience as taught me, no more, no less.

Call me a fool as I suppose I am in your eyes. I don't make a penny off of anything I "bolster" or push on this or any other site. I highly recommend Viper Archery Products, Predator Pro-MT bow sight. I bought two, at full price. I haven't received anything for free including my Enigma camo. Did I receive a discount, yes I did but trust me, I wouldn't have spent a penny on a product I did not feel justified it. Chuck and I have been friends for a long time. That friendship started when I met him making a comment on ASAT camo. I wore ASAT camo long before many of you even bowhunted, not all but many. Do I think ASAT is a superior camo, yes, I love the ASAT pattern but I'm a firm believer that Engima is every bit as good a camo as ASAT ever was minus a few tweeks that you will see come out with Enigma both through my suggestions as well as many others here on HNI. I won't get into the real reason why I no longer back ASAT, it's not the pattern, it's the company...that's all I'll say about that. I'm not a whore in the industry. I don't switch products because suddenly I get something free. I've turned down prostaff positions to companys that I didn't believe in. That's called integrity. When Chuck approached me about Enigma, I told him if I don't like it or it fails me I won't use it and Chuck wanted nothing more than the truth and I like many at first wasn't sold on it. I tested it, I purposely tried to get noticed by deer and didn't. It proved itself, Chuck is a great guy and I'll back him. If the product sucked or didn't work, I'd tell Chuck that and I would probably wear Predator and recommend it even though it is a seasonal specific camo, the only flaw it has vs ASAT and Engima which is a all season, every situation camo. But again, there's issues in other areas when it comes to ASAT, the company and I.

You know, when your little one was born, I saw a very positive change in you and that's when you changed your username. Now I never expect anyone to ever bite their tongue or hide how they feel, I would never do that myself except my "mod" title causes me to bite mine more times than I want to. There is a diplomatic way of approaching every situation. I still think your a great guy, you've been here as long as anyone and perhaps your right, it might be the long season, the closing of the season and the winter lull, I see it in everyone including myself. Don't take that too serious, it's not an issue. Yes, you took alot of liberties and I won't say your neither wrong, nor right.

Germ

I am just a friend.

MOTOWNHONKEY

I'm pretty much a dickhead year around but atleast I'm consistant.

Double Creek

Very cool move on Chuck's part, but I wouldn't compare his company to Bill Jordan's multi-million dollar company...Entirely different beasts...

PA Hardwoods

Correct DC, but this kind of service and caring from the small company is what makes me want to do business with the little guy.

GMMAT

BINGO, PA Hardwoods.....BINGO.

THAT was the premise behind my thread title.

Jeff

MC Bowhunter

Hey guys nobody has mentioned Jim Crumley andTrebark camo. I mean here is a guy who got a white t-shirt and with a magic marker drew a bark pattern on it and colored it in. Then proceded to make lots of money with the idea. I'm not sure but wasn't he one of the first camo clothing guys before the realtree and mossy oak guys? He may have helped start this whole craze...lol

MC Bowhunter

GMMAT

Yeah....but he never called me, either

Jeff