Ban compounds from archery season - thoughts ??
11-26-2002 | 08:28 AM
#141
Giant Nontypical
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 5,541
Likes: 0
From: Phoenixville, PA USA
RE: Ban compounds from archery season - thoughts ??
I have read this topic front to back. My eyes are sore, and I wish I had spent a couple of hours doing something else. I pretty much knew where this thread was going before I even opened it when I saw the topic and saw the author. In retrospect I wish I would have never opened it. Before I respond to the meat and potatoes of this thread, I will respond to the supposed topic at hand.
IF crossbows were to be made legal in general archery season to any hunter and an ethical hunter decided to make this his weapon of choice and practiced with it and worked hard to hunt with it I would embrace him as a fellow hunter. I would rather see a guy like this who cares about hunting and the game he hunts than some guy that buys a bow 2 days before the season and heads out to the woods, or a guy who takes 12 shots at game and only has one animal to show for it but thinks it's OK because he shoots traditional gear. If someone were to get a crossbow simply to try to whack some deer and put no effort into learning his gear, but simply wanted to take advantage of what he views as an "easy" opportunity, I would not want to share the woods with him either. That being said, I disagree with crossbows being entered into an archery season because in my opinion it does not take archery skills. The form used in shooting a bow (compound, recurve, or longbow) is essentially the same. Upright posture, bow arm extended, DRAW the string, anchor, aim, and shoot. That is archery and that is why I shoot a bow more than I shoot a gun. A crossbow has all of the same mechanics as shooting a gun. Load the weapon, bring the stock to your shoulder, brace your cheek on the stock, aim, and shoot. There is your difference. One does not have to learn and apply the mechanics and skills of shooting a bow to shoot a crossbow and that is why I feel it does not belong in archery season.
Now to the real point of this thread.
Stealthycat, I have read your drivel on this board since you have taken up your new love of traditional archery. Since then you have time and again posted things to boost your opinion of yourself for making such a switch.
C903 had asked what the point of this thread is. That is all that it is about. It's just you using another vehicle (crossbows vs. compounds vs. traditional) to sing your own praises about how you have switched to a longbow and now you are a "true" hunter.
As this thread drags on you continue to backpeddle and go back to "traditional gear is harder than a compound." You say how hard it is and how you and your friends keep missing and wounding game, but when someone says you need more practice you rebut with, "oh, but there were twigs in the way." If you hit a twig then you screwed up and it has nothing to do with your gear. You say if you had a compound the trajectory would have been different and you would have missed the twig. Number one, how do you know if you didn't know it was there? Number two, the trajectory difference of any arrow inside of 20 yards (which you must have been shooting since trad is more difficult) is not that great. Number three, it is your job as an archer to know your trajectory and be able to judge the shot prior to dropping the string. Yes, things happen while hunting. However, it seems that the identical thing happened twice to you (get me once shame on you, get me twice shame on me) and these things seem to happen a lot to your band of merry men.
You also continue to make comparisons between traditional gear and fully equipped compounds despite the fact that it has been brought to your attention many times that many people shoot compounds bare bow.
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote<font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>Lets see, a crossbow has a release, a compound has a release, a crossbow has sights, a compound has sights, a crossbow is geld full draw, a compound can be held for several minutes, a crossbows gets 250-300 fps, a compound gets 250-300+ fps .... what were we comparing again ?? <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>
Last time I bought a compound (and I buy them more often than my better half would like) all I got was a bow, two cams, string, cables and a cable guard. I had to buy a release, sights, etc. separately. Not to mention (even though it has been several times already) those items you bring up can be put on your beloved traditional gear. In fact, the guys that put that stuff on their carbon limbed, machined riser recurves can shoot the pants off of most compound shooters a lot of times.
You keep bringing up let-off and while it is an advantage the average amount of time I spend at full draw before shooting at an animal is about 6 seconds with the longest being 20 seconds. I don't know about you, but I cannot hold my bow back for several minutes and expect to accurately shoot my bow. If you are holding for several minutes and shooting at game, you need to rethink your ethics IMO. Then again you pal around with people that feel it's normal to have a combined 1-17 kill to shoot ratio so I'm not surprised.
I don't understand why feel this is OK. There are many traditional shooters that have had great success year in and year out and don't say, "look at my success and I did it with traditional gear." On the flip side there are many compound hunters that are not having the same success. Yet you still continue with your posts that have no other purpose that boasting your new found love.
With all this being put on the table I will say this, I am very happy for you that you have found something that you are passionate about and wish you all the best with it. Just do the rest of us a favor and quit trying to prove (whether it be to us or yourself) how great you are for it.
For those of you that feel this post is a little personal it is. This guy has been doing this for over a year now and apparently on several boards. Those of you that know where I am coming from...well, enough said.
IF crossbows were to be made legal in general archery season to any hunter and an ethical hunter decided to make this his weapon of choice and practiced with it and worked hard to hunt with it I would embrace him as a fellow hunter. I would rather see a guy like this who cares about hunting and the game he hunts than some guy that buys a bow 2 days before the season and heads out to the woods, or a guy who takes 12 shots at game and only has one animal to show for it but thinks it's OK because he shoots traditional gear. If someone were to get a crossbow simply to try to whack some deer and put no effort into learning his gear, but simply wanted to take advantage of what he views as an "easy" opportunity, I would not want to share the woods with him either. That being said, I disagree with crossbows being entered into an archery season because in my opinion it does not take archery skills. The form used in shooting a bow (compound, recurve, or longbow) is essentially the same. Upright posture, bow arm extended, DRAW the string, anchor, aim, and shoot. That is archery and that is why I shoot a bow more than I shoot a gun. A crossbow has all of the same mechanics as shooting a gun. Load the weapon, bring the stock to your shoulder, brace your cheek on the stock, aim, and shoot. There is your difference. One does not have to learn and apply the mechanics and skills of shooting a bow to shoot a crossbow and that is why I feel it does not belong in archery season.
Now to the real point of this thread.
Stealthycat, I have read your drivel on this board since you have taken up your new love of traditional archery. Since then you have time and again posted things to boost your opinion of yourself for making such a switch.
C903 had asked what the point of this thread is. That is all that it is about. It's just you using another vehicle (crossbows vs. compounds vs. traditional) to sing your own praises about how you have switched to a longbow and now you are a "true" hunter.
As this thread drags on you continue to backpeddle and go back to "traditional gear is harder than a compound." You say how hard it is and how you and your friends keep missing and wounding game, but when someone says you need more practice you rebut with, "oh, but there were twigs in the way." If you hit a twig then you screwed up and it has nothing to do with your gear. You say if you had a compound the trajectory would have been different and you would have missed the twig. Number one, how do you know if you didn't know it was there? Number two, the trajectory difference of any arrow inside of 20 yards (which you must have been shooting since trad is more difficult) is not that great. Number three, it is your job as an archer to know your trajectory and be able to judge the shot prior to dropping the string. Yes, things happen while hunting. However, it seems that the identical thing happened twice to you (get me once shame on you, get me twice shame on me) and these things seem to happen a lot to your band of merry men.
You also continue to make comparisons between traditional gear and fully equipped compounds despite the fact that it has been brought to your attention many times that many people shoot compounds bare bow.
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote<font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>Lets see, a crossbow has a release, a compound has a release, a crossbow has sights, a compound has sights, a crossbow is geld full draw, a compound can be held for several minutes, a crossbows gets 250-300 fps, a compound gets 250-300+ fps .... what were we comparing again ?? <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>
Last time I bought a compound (and I buy them more often than my better half would like) all I got was a bow, two cams, string, cables and a cable guard. I had to buy a release, sights, etc. separately. Not to mention (even though it has been several times already) those items you bring up can be put on your beloved traditional gear. In fact, the guys that put that stuff on their carbon limbed, machined riser recurves can shoot the pants off of most compound shooters a lot of times.
You keep bringing up let-off and while it is an advantage the average amount of time I spend at full draw before shooting at an animal is about 6 seconds with the longest being 20 seconds. I don't know about you, but I cannot hold my bow back for several minutes and expect to accurately shoot my bow. If you are holding for several minutes and shooting at game, you need to rethink your ethics IMO. Then again you pal around with people that feel it's normal to have a combined 1-17 kill to shoot ratio so I'm not surprised.
I don't understand why feel this is OK. There are many traditional shooters that have had great success year in and year out and don't say, "look at my success and I did it with traditional gear." On the flip side there are many compound hunters that are not having the same success. Yet you still continue with your posts that have no other purpose that boasting your new found love.
With all this being put on the table I will say this, I am very happy for you that you have found something that you are passionate about and wish you all the best with it. Just do the rest of us a favor and quit trying to prove (whether it be to us or yourself) how great you are for it.
For those of you that feel this post is a little personal it is. This guy has been doing this for over a year now and apparently on several boards. Those of you that know where I am coming from...well, enough said.
11-26-2002 | 10:46 AM
#142
Thread Starter
Nontypical Buck
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 3,643
Likes: 0
From: ......
RE: Ban compounds from archery season - thoughts ??
HuntingBry - Great post, well though out. Sorry your eyes are sore.
<font size=1>IF crossbows were to be made legal in general archery season to any hunter and an ethical hunter decided to make this his weapon of choice and practiced with it and worked hard to hunt with it I would embrace him as a fellow hunter. I would rather see a guy like this who cares about hunting and the game he hunts than some guy that buys a bow 2 days before the season and heads out to the woods, or a guy who takes 12 shots at game and only has one animal to show for it but thinks it's OK because he shoots traditional gear. If someone were to get a crossbow simply to try to whack some deer and put no effort into learning his gear, but simply wanted to take advantage of what he views as an "easy" opportunity, I would not want to share the woods with him either.</font id=size1>
Question - Do you think my coworker, after shooting the compound we set up and consistantly hitting 4" groups at 20 yards after only two days of shooting ... do you agree with him hunting over Thanksgiving with it and why ?
<font size=1>That being said, I disagree with crossbows being entered into an archery season because in my opinion it does not take archery skills. The form used in shooting a bow (compound, recurve, or longbow) is essentially the same. Upright posture, bow arm extended, DRAW the string, anchor, aim, and shoot. That is archery and that is why I shoot a bow more than I shoot a gun. A crossbow has all of the same mechanics as shooting a gun. Load the weapon, bring the stock to your shoulder, brace your cheek on the stock, aim, and shoot. There is your difference. One does not have to learn and apply the mechanics and skills of shooting a bow to shoot a crossbow and that is why I feel it does not belong in archery season.</font id=size1>
Archery skills ... like being able to pick up a compound and never having shot one and hitting a 4" group, that kind of skill ? I will agree that you hold a crossbow like a gun, but the mechnical release of the string and the way the arrow is propelled is that of a bow as defined. But you do have a point.
<font size=1>C903 had asked what the point of this thread is. That is all that it is about. It's just you using another vehicle (crossbows vs. compounds vs. traditional) to sing your own praises about how you have switched to a longbow and now you are a "true" hunter. "</font id=size1>
Okay, I'll play your game a bit. But first do me this favor ... go to this thread and read it.
http://www.bowsite.com/stickbow/tf/t...ges=8&forum=23
Paraphrased it says ...
[/i] I've been shooting a recurve for about 8 months now after 12 years with a compound and I want to share some things that I've learned and conclusions I've come to during the past few months.These are only my opinion and am sure some of these will change as I progress in shooting.
3.Snap shooting for me was a very inconsistent way to shoot.It took me a while but I finally trained myself to come to a solid anchor and hold for a bit before release and my shooting is much more accurate and consistent. 4.Shooting at a deer with a recurve and having to pick a spot is much more difficult than I thought.(I've missed two and wounded one).I am shooting well during practice and think that the next shot I get I will be able to remain calm,slow down,and pick a spot.After my misses I am now practicing on intense concentration on a spot. 5.Traditional archery is much more fun and rewarding than shooting a compound.I only wish that I would have begun years ago. 8.It takes alot of time and practice to be consistently accurate with a recurve.I shoot almost daily and after 8 months am just now consistent out to 18 yards.I shoot out to about 25 yards some but so far,I'm confident out to about 18,maybe 20 yards on a good day.Under 18,I'm very confident.With my compound,baseball size groups at 40 yards was the norm.Traditional archery takes a committment in time and effort to be a good shot.A compound shooter can be good in a few weeks. 9.For me,I like instinctive shooting.It seems to fit traditional archery.If I wanted to gap shoot,then I may as well go back to a compound.I'm not trying to offend the gap shooters.I can't say that I shoot purely instinctive because I am aware of the arrow but I don't aim with it and for me that is one of the joys of traditional archery.It is just you and the bow.No sights or gadgets of any kind. 11.My friends think I'm nuts for trying to kill a deer with a recurve.After my misses,they think I'm not ready to hunt with one but I'm not giving up.I just have to chalk those up to the learning process.I'll miss again,I'm sure,but I hope that in time,my misses will be few and far between. [/i]
Maybe I am not in the minority afterall.
To your game - am I tooting my horn ? Maybe I am, but I don't think so and here why. Theres three season in AR
(1) modern gun (rifles, shotguns and pistols)
(2) Muzzleloader (inline, caplock, flintlock)
(3) Archery (compound, crossbow, recurve/longbow)
Who uses what in each season the most ? Rifles in modern gun season, inlines in Muzzleloader season and compounds in archery (maybe a 50-50 split between compounds and crossbows, I have no stats on it). What then does that say ? They are the easiest weapons to use, most accurate and thats what people to use to kill animals with. I got not problems with that either. But to anyone who says contrary to that, that maybe inlines are just as hard to use as a flintlock, or that a rifle is harder to use than a shotgun or that a recurve is easier and better to use for archery hunting (as a general overall statement) its simply not true.
You want to know the people who really challenge themselves in archery ? Self bowyers who make the stuff themselves and primitive archers.
So back to the game. I do have a feeling of pride that I have spent the hours to learn my longbow and to shoot it like I can. I still got a long way to go though, and just like the thread above and those that responded to it, I didn't really think it would be this hard. If I were an elitest, I would call for a seperate traditional season altogehter, wouldn't I ? If I were against crossbows based on the way they are drawn, or held, or the mechnical release or the technology that they are wrapped up in, then its not hard to also draw the very same conclusion between compounds and recurves/longbows. You'll see that attitude on the LW and in fact, I am exactly the opposite I think as I approve of crossbows, longbow, recurves and compounds altogether.
<font size=1>You keep bringing up let-off and while it is an advantage the average amount of time I spend at full draw before shooting at an animal is about 6 seconds with the longest being 20 seconds. I don't know about you, but I cannot hold my bow back for several minutes and expect to accurately shoot my bow. If you are holding for several minutes and shooting at game, you need to rethink your ethics IMO. Then again you pal around with people that feel it's normal to have a combined 1-17 kill to shoot ratio so I'm not surprised.</font id=size1>
I can hold a very long time with a compound and shoot well - I practiced that way. I know my ethics. I never said I felt it was normal to have a 1-17 record, did I ? <font color=red>But humble me - what criteria should I use to pick a hunting partner ? </font id=red>
"With all this being put on the table I will say this, I am very happy for you that you have found something that you are passionate about and wish you all the best with it. Just do the rest of us a favor and quit trying to prove (whether it be to us or yourself) how great you are for it.
For those of you that feel this post is a little personal it is. This guy has been doing this for over a year now and apparently on several boards. Those of you that know where I am coming from...well, enough said.
Best luck to your hunting as well. I AM a better hunter for trying more challenging equipment, that I know just as I became a better hunter when I started using a compound, and I'll make no apologies for that. I have been "doing this" for really closer to 3 years I think, and that being posting my thoughts about sensitive issues, presenting my reasoning and seeing how it hold up to against scrutiny. Abortion, 2000 Presidential Elections, Clinton, quartering to and frontal shots on game, broadhead choice, how to hunt elk, and yep, even crossbows. My "several" board are this one and the LW - I can send you a link if you want the address, but the search engiine over there doesn't work as well as this one, but the traditional archery information that can be found is tremendous.
This thread has come near to full circle I think, lots of great input by some and by other just trash talk and dodging because they are anti-crossbow but cannot debate why. Anyone else like to take a potshot before this thread dies a firey death ?? Anyone ?
Stealthycat's Photo's
<font size=1>IF crossbows were to be made legal in general archery season to any hunter and an ethical hunter decided to make this his weapon of choice and practiced with it and worked hard to hunt with it I would embrace him as a fellow hunter. I would rather see a guy like this who cares about hunting and the game he hunts than some guy that buys a bow 2 days before the season and heads out to the woods, or a guy who takes 12 shots at game and only has one animal to show for it but thinks it's OK because he shoots traditional gear. If someone were to get a crossbow simply to try to whack some deer and put no effort into learning his gear, but simply wanted to take advantage of what he views as an "easy" opportunity, I would not want to share the woods with him either.</font id=size1>
Question - Do you think my coworker, after shooting the compound we set up and consistantly hitting 4" groups at 20 yards after only two days of shooting ... do you agree with him hunting over Thanksgiving with it and why ?
<font size=1>That being said, I disagree with crossbows being entered into an archery season because in my opinion it does not take archery skills. The form used in shooting a bow (compound, recurve, or longbow) is essentially the same. Upright posture, bow arm extended, DRAW the string, anchor, aim, and shoot. That is archery and that is why I shoot a bow more than I shoot a gun. A crossbow has all of the same mechanics as shooting a gun. Load the weapon, bring the stock to your shoulder, brace your cheek on the stock, aim, and shoot. There is your difference. One does not have to learn and apply the mechanics and skills of shooting a bow to shoot a crossbow and that is why I feel it does not belong in archery season.</font id=size1>
Archery skills ... like being able to pick up a compound and never having shot one and hitting a 4" group, that kind of skill ? I will agree that you hold a crossbow like a gun, but the mechnical release of the string and the way the arrow is propelled is that of a bow as defined. But you do have a point.
<font size=1>C903 had asked what the point of this thread is. That is all that it is about. It's just you using another vehicle (crossbows vs. compounds vs. traditional) to sing your own praises about how you have switched to a longbow and now you are a "true" hunter. "</font id=size1>
Okay, I'll play your game a bit. But first do me this favor ... go to this thread and read it.
http://www.bowsite.com/stickbow/tf/t...ges=8&forum=23
Paraphrased it says ...
[/i] I've been shooting a recurve for about 8 months now after 12 years with a compound and I want to share some things that I've learned and conclusions I've come to during the past few months.These are only my opinion and am sure some of these will change as I progress in shooting.
3.Snap shooting for me was a very inconsistent way to shoot.It took me a while but I finally trained myself to come to a solid anchor and hold for a bit before release and my shooting is much more accurate and consistent. 4.Shooting at a deer with a recurve and having to pick a spot is much more difficult than I thought.(I've missed two and wounded one).I am shooting well during practice and think that the next shot I get I will be able to remain calm,slow down,and pick a spot.After my misses I am now practicing on intense concentration on a spot. 5.Traditional archery is much more fun and rewarding than shooting a compound.I only wish that I would have begun years ago. 8.It takes alot of time and practice to be consistently accurate with a recurve.I shoot almost daily and after 8 months am just now consistent out to 18 yards.I shoot out to about 25 yards some but so far,I'm confident out to about 18,maybe 20 yards on a good day.Under 18,I'm very confident.With my compound,baseball size groups at 40 yards was the norm.Traditional archery takes a committment in time and effort to be a good shot.A compound shooter can be good in a few weeks. 9.For me,I like instinctive shooting.It seems to fit traditional archery.If I wanted to gap shoot,then I may as well go back to a compound.I'm not trying to offend the gap shooters.I can't say that I shoot purely instinctive because I am aware of the arrow but I don't aim with it and for me that is one of the joys of traditional archery.It is just you and the bow.No sights or gadgets of any kind. 11.My friends think I'm nuts for trying to kill a deer with a recurve.After my misses,they think I'm not ready to hunt with one but I'm not giving up.I just have to chalk those up to the learning process.I'll miss again,I'm sure,but I hope that in time,my misses will be few and far between. [/i]
Maybe I am not in the minority afterall.
To your game - am I tooting my horn ? Maybe I am, but I don't think so and here why. Theres three season in AR
(1) modern gun (rifles, shotguns and pistols)
(2) Muzzleloader (inline, caplock, flintlock)
(3) Archery (compound, crossbow, recurve/longbow)
Who uses what in each season the most ? Rifles in modern gun season, inlines in Muzzleloader season and compounds in archery (maybe a 50-50 split between compounds and crossbows, I have no stats on it). What then does that say ? They are the easiest weapons to use, most accurate and thats what people to use to kill animals with. I got not problems with that either. But to anyone who says contrary to that, that maybe inlines are just as hard to use as a flintlock, or that a rifle is harder to use than a shotgun or that a recurve is easier and better to use for archery hunting (as a general overall statement) its simply not true.
You want to know the people who really challenge themselves in archery ? Self bowyers who make the stuff themselves and primitive archers.
So back to the game. I do have a feeling of pride that I have spent the hours to learn my longbow and to shoot it like I can. I still got a long way to go though, and just like the thread above and those that responded to it, I didn't really think it would be this hard. If I were an elitest, I would call for a seperate traditional season altogehter, wouldn't I ? If I were against crossbows based on the way they are drawn, or held, or the mechnical release or the technology that they are wrapped up in, then its not hard to also draw the very same conclusion between compounds and recurves/longbows. You'll see that attitude on the LW and in fact, I am exactly the opposite I think as I approve of crossbows, longbow, recurves and compounds altogether.
<font size=1>You keep bringing up let-off and while it is an advantage the average amount of time I spend at full draw before shooting at an animal is about 6 seconds with the longest being 20 seconds. I don't know about you, but I cannot hold my bow back for several minutes and expect to accurately shoot my bow. If you are holding for several minutes and shooting at game, you need to rethink your ethics IMO. Then again you pal around with people that feel it's normal to have a combined 1-17 kill to shoot ratio so I'm not surprised.</font id=size1>
I can hold a very long time with a compound and shoot well - I practiced that way. I know my ethics. I never said I felt it was normal to have a 1-17 record, did I ? <font color=red>But humble me - what criteria should I use to pick a hunting partner ? </font id=red>
"With all this being put on the table I will say this, I am very happy for you that you have found something that you are passionate about and wish you all the best with it. Just do the rest of us a favor and quit trying to prove (whether it be to us or yourself) how great you are for it.
For those of you that feel this post is a little personal it is. This guy has been doing this for over a year now and apparently on several boards. Those of you that know where I am coming from...well, enough said.
Best luck to your hunting as well. I AM a better hunter for trying more challenging equipment, that I know just as I became a better hunter when I started using a compound, and I'll make no apologies for that. I have been "doing this" for really closer to 3 years I think, and that being posting my thoughts about sensitive issues, presenting my reasoning and seeing how it hold up to against scrutiny. Abortion, 2000 Presidential Elections, Clinton, quartering to and frontal shots on game, broadhead choice, how to hunt elk, and yep, even crossbows. My "several" board are this one and the LW - I can send you a link if you want the address, but the search engiine over there doesn't work as well as this one, but the traditional archery information that can be found is tremendous.
This thread has come near to full circle I think, lots of great input by some and by other just trash talk and dodging because they are anti-crossbow but cannot debate why. Anyone else like to take a potshot before this thread dies a firey death ?? Anyone ?
Stealthycat's Photo's
11-26-2002 | 11:19 AM
#143
Typical Buck
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 871
Likes: 0
From: chattaahoochee fl
RE: Ban compounds from archery season - thoughts ??
got a ? for yall.
if the State said you could not load the xbow untill your are redy to shoot would that satify the bows are pulled the xbow is set aurgement?
where does the draw-lock fit in?
and as far as scopes go on the xbow. they are not allowed in Fl. during bow seasion. the bow and the xbow have the same gide lines during bow sesion.
it does not matter to me one way or the other if xbow are made leagle for general use. i have my permite.
i would like to see the xbow allowed in general use at least on priet land.
now going by most of the ani xbow thereds i have sean "on other boards to" the 2 bigest reasions i have sean #1 more people will be in the woods "shelfiss reasion to keep hunter # down" #2 we would have more slob hunter in the woods. a slob hunter is a slob no mater what "tool" they hunt with. and a ehical hunter is one nomater what tool they use. "elitles maybe"
some of the other popular reasions. i dont want the sesion to be shorer "selfshis reasion"
they "the x hunter" have an unfair anvantge they dont have to pull the arower back.
well if the xbow is leagle and you think there is an avanatge use one or dont complan about the differance "in gun seasion how many time have you ever heard a singleshot hunter complaying about the grater raped fire capabiltys of a boltgun?"
and sence when has hunting become a compitision? how does what one hunter dicides to hunt with efect you? espicaly if you could chose to hunt with the same tool?
L. O. D. Charter member and L.O.S.
if the State said you could not load the xbow untill your are redy to shoot would that satify the bows are pulled the xbow is set aurgement?
where does the draw-lock fit in?
and as far as scopes go on the xbow. they are not allowed in Fl. during bow seasion. the bow and the xbow have the same gide lines during bow sesion.
it does not matter to me one way or the other if xbow are made leagle for general use. i have my permite.
i would like to see the xbow allowed in general use at least on priet land.
now going by most of the ani xbow thereds i have sean "on other boards to" the 2 bigest reasions i have sean #1 more people will be in the woods "shelfiss reasion to keep hunter # down" #2 we would have more slob hunter in the woods. a slob hunter is a slob no mater what "tool" they hunt with. and a ehical hunter is one nomater what tool they use. "elitles maybe"
some of the other popular reasions. i dont want the sesion to be shorer "selfshis reasion"
they "the x hunter" have an unfair anvantge they dont have to pull the arower back.
well if the xbow is leagle and you think there is an avanatge use one or dont complan about the differance "in gun seasion how many time have you ever heard a singleshot hunter complaying about the grater raped fire capabiltys of a boltgun?"
and sence when has hunting become a compitision? how does what one hunter dicides to hunt with efect you? espicaly if you could chose to hunt with the same tool?
L. O. D. Charter member and L.O.S.
11-26-2002 | 12:51 PM
#144
Nontypical Buck
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 1,231
Likes: 0
From: Montgomery IL USA
RE: Ban compounds from archery season - thoughts ??
SC,
Well, since you offered...
What I find sad, yet humorous, is that you seem to be very selective when you discuss what "your experiences" are, depending on what side of the fence your feet are planted on at the time.
For example, and from the link Arrowsmit posted (these are your words, and your experiences)...
<font color=red>"As for my take on this issue, I live in Arkansas. Crossbows are legal."</font id=red>
So, you have a lot of experience with the issue? Great. Let's look at what your "experience" bore out when it was fashionable for you to be, as you said, "anti-crossbow"....
<font color=red>"Its been my experience that crossbow hunters pick their crossbows up the day before they go hunting, shoot a few shot and then they're off."</font id=red>
Your "experience" was that crossgun hunters don't practice much at all.
<font color=red>"You dont hunt Camp Robinson, do you ? Man, hat place is loaded with crossbow hunters. Mostly Little Rock archer wannabe's who buy their crossbow on Friday or pull it out of the closest and hunt on Sat and Sun with it." "I'm about 5 miles from Camp Robinson North entrance, about 2 miles from Bell Slough."</font id=red>
Your "experience" was, again, that crossgun hunters don't practice much at all.
<font color=red>"What you are saying is a reflection of the type of hunters that use crossbows in general. Not real good hunters, not really into spending time to learn their equipment, mostly men who want to fill an easy tag. The result ? Wounded and lost deer..."</font id=red>
Your "experience" was that, due to lack of practice, crossgun hunters wound and lose game.
<font color=red>"Safety does not have a relevancy to what weapons are used, an idiot with a crossbow is every bit as dangerous, possibly more with no one wearing blaze orange to catch his eye, as an idiot with a gun."</font id=red>
Your "experience" was that "idiots" (your word) with crossguns are dangerous.
<font color=red>"My experience this past year? I don't remember seeing any other archery hunters at all that I could identify their weapons, period, because of where and how I hunt. I did however see my neighbor take his dusty crossbow out of his closet, shooting 3 different kinds of arrows and rusty broadheads and hitting a 10" groups the day before he was to go hunting. THERE is the problem I think with crossbows. Oh, and the guy on the 4 wheeler, crossbow cocked and ready driving through the woods. Oh, and a guy I know buying one on Friday and shooting one of the biggest bucks my Dad ever seen (it passed his stand about 30 minutes after the guy shot it). Long bloodtrail, it started raining, deer never found."</font id=red>
Your "experience" was that crossgun hunters were slobs.
<font color=red>"The difference lies in that you and I can pick up a crossbow and have it shooting 3 inch groups in about 5 minutes, and while compounds nowdays are also easy to master, its not that easy."</font id=red>
Your "experience" was that compounds were not as easy to master as crossguns.
One of my favorites...
<font color=red>"We simply cannot have high wounding rates and slob hunters in our ranks and survive IMO. Crossbows invites those kinds of hunters - I've seen it, I know it. The examples I gave are from this year alone. Last year I saw the same thing, year before and year before that."</font id=red>
That one speaks for itself.
You accuse others of not being able to debate, and dodging, but you exemplify the concept of selective memory?
When Arrowsmit calls you to the mat for this, you simply explain it with "I was wrong". Well, what were you "wrong" about? These are your experiences, not your opinions. Did your eyes not see what they saw for all those years?
And this, SC, is why I ROTFLMAO every time I see you start another one of these threads. Tell me I can't debate? Heck son, you can't even debate your own "experience". <img src=icon_smile_dissapprove.gif border=0 align=middle>
JRW
Edited by - jrw on 11/26/2002 13:56:10
Well, since you offered...
What I find sad, yet humorous, is that you seem to be very selective when you discuss what "your experiences" are, depending on what side of the fence your feet are planted on at the time.
For example, and from the link Arrowsmit posted (these are your words, and your experiences)...
<font color=red>"As for my take on this issue, I live in Arkansas. Crossbows are legal."</font id=red>
So, you have a lot of experience with the issue? Great. Let's look at what your "experience" bore out when it was fashionable for you to be, as you said, "anti-crossbow"....
<font color=red>"Its been my experience that crossbow hunters pick their crossbows up the day before they go hunting, shoot a few shot and then they're off."</font id=red>
Your "experience" was that crossgun hunters don't practice much at all.
<font color=red>"You dont hunt Camp Robinson, do you ? Man, hat place is loaded with crossbow hunters. Mostly Little Rock archer wannabe's who buy their crossbow on Friday or pull it out of the closest and hunt on Sat and Sun with it." "I'm about 5 miles from Camp Robinson North entrance, about 2 miles from Bell Slough."</font id=red>
Your "experience" was, again, that crossgun hunters don't practice much at all.
<font color=red>"What you are saying is a reflection of the type of hunters that use crossbows in general. Not real good hunters, not really into spending time to learn their equipment, mostly men who want to fill an easy tag. The result ? Wounded and lost deer..."</font id=red>
Your "experience" was that, due to lack of practice, crossgun hunters wound and lose game.
<font color=red>"Safety does not have a relevancy to what weapons are used, an idiot with a crossbow is every bit as dangerous, possibly more with no one wearing blaze orange to catch his eye, as an idiot with a gun."</font id=red>
Your "experience" was that "idiots" (your word) with crossguns are dangerous.
<font color=red>"My experience this past year? I don't remember seeing any other archery hunters at all that I could identify their weapons, period, because of where and how I hunt. I did however see my neighbor take his dusty crossbow out of his closet, shooting 3 different kinds of arrows and rusty broadheads and hitting a 10" groups the day before he was to go hunting. THERE is the problem I think with crossbows. Oh, and the guy on the 4 wheeler, crossbow cocked and ready driving through the woods. Oh, and a guy I know buying one on Friday and shooting one of the biggest bucks my Dad ever seen (it passed his stand about 30 minutes after the guy shot it). Long bloodtrail, it started raining, deer never found."</font id=red>
Your "experience" was that crossgun hunters were slobs.
<font color=red>"The difference lies in that you and I can pick up a crossbow and have it shooting 3 inch groups in about 5 minutes, and while compounds nowdays are also easy to master, its not that easy."</font id=red>
Your "experience" was that compounds were not as easy to master as crossguns.
One of my favorites...
<font color=red>"We simply cannot have high wounding rates and slob hunters in our ranks and survive IMO. Crossbows invites those kinds of hunters - I've seen it, I know it. The examples I gave are from this year alone. Last year I saw the same thing, year before and year before that."</font id=red>
That one speaks for itself.
You accuse others of not being able to debate, and dodging, but you exemplify the concept of selective memory?
When Arrowsmit calls you to the mat for this, you simply explain it with "I was wrong". Well, what were you "wrong" about? These are your experiences, not your opinions. Did your eyes not see what they saw for all those years?
And this, SC, is why I ROTFLMAO every time I see you start another one of these threads. Tell me I can't debate? Heck son, you can't even debate your own "experience". <img src=icon_smile_dissapprove.gif border=0 align=middle>
JRW
Edited by - jrw on 11/26/2002 13:56:10
11-26-2002 | 12:53 PM
#145
Giant Nontypical
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 5,541
Likes: 0
From: Phoenixville, PA USA
RE: Ban compounds from archery season - thoughts ??
Stealthy, I'll answer your questions and reply to some of your comments.
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote<font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>Question - Do you think my coworker, after shooting the compound we set up and consistantly hitting 4" groups at 20 yards after only two days of shooting ... do you agree with him hunting over Thanksgiving with it and why ? <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>
From what you indicated in the initial post and the fact that he has only been shooting 2 days, absolutely not. There is a lot more to bowhunting (which someone with as many years under their belt as you would agree to I'm sure) than simply hitting a spot with an arrow. He needs to be able to hit that spot from 40 yards consistently and practice in the different standing, sitting, contorted positions he will potentially face while hunting. If he, or anyone else for that matter, is not doing that prior to entering the woods, he is not being fair to the game he is after.
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>Archery skills ... like being able to pick up a compound and never having shot one and hitting a 4" group, that kind of skill ? I will agree that you hold a crossbow like a gun, but the mechnical release of the string and the way the arrow is propelled is that of a bow as defined. But you do have a point. <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>
I don't consider someone who can hit a spot on a target at 20 yards to be skilled in archery. I could do that in 5th grade gym class with a plastic recurve (albeit not well) and I would not have considered myself a skilled archer at that time. With a compound I consider a skilled archer to be consistent at the greater distances (40 yards and above) making the 20 yard shot a chip shot. With traditional gear there is different criteria due to the nature of the gear.
As far as the rest of your post goes, I don't think anyone that has shot both traditional gear next to modern compounds will argue that traditional gear offers a unique set of challenges that take time and effort to master. I applaud you for taking up the challenge. Overall, I don't think you are a bad guy I just hope that you don't dislocate your shoulder patting yourself on the back, because it will be mighty hard to shoot any archery gear if you do. Well, except maybe a crossbow.<img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_evil.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_tongue.gif border=0 align=middle>
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote<font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>Question - Do you think my coworker, after shooting the compound we set up and consistantly hitting 4" groups at 20 yards after only two days of shooting ... do you agree with him hunting over Thanksgiving with it and why ? <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>
From what you indicated in the initial post and the fact that he has only been shooting 2 days, absolutely not. There is a lot more to bowhunting (which someone with as many years under their belt as you would agree to I'm sure) than simply hitting a spot with an arrow. He needs to be able to hit that spot from 40 yards consistently and practice in the different standing, sitting, contorted positions he will potentially face while hunting. If he, or anyone else for that matter, is not doing that prior to entering the woods, he is not being fair to the game he is after.
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>Archery skills ... like being able to pick up a compound and never having shot one and hitting a 4" group, that kind of skill ? I will agree that you hold a crossbow like a gun, but the mechnical release of the string and the way the arrow is propelled is that of a bow as defined. But you do have a point. <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>
I don't consider someone who can hit a spot on a target at 20 yards to be skilled in archery. I could do that in 5th grade gym class with a plastic recurve (albeit not well) and I would not have considered myself a skilled archer at that time. With a compound I consider a skilled archer to be consistent at the greater distances (40 yards and above) making the 20 yard shot a chip shot. With traditional gear there is different criteria due to the nature of the gear.
As far as the rest of your post goes, I don't think anyone that has shot both traditional gear next to modern compounds will argue that traditional gear offers a unique set of challenges that take time and effort to master. I applaud you for taking up the challenge. Overall, I don't think you are a bad guy I just hope that you don't dislocate your shoulder patting yourself on the back, because it will be mighty hard to shoot any archery gear if you do. Well, except maybe a crossbow.<img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_evil.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_tongue.gif border=0 align=middle>
11-26-2002 | 01:55 PM
#146
Thread Starter
Nontypical Buck
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 3,643
Likes: 0
From: ......
RE: Ban compounds from archery season - thoughts ??
JRW -
" You accuse others of not being able to debate, and dodging, but you exemplify the concept of selective memory? When Arrowsmit calls you to the mat for this, you simply explain it with "I was wrong". Well, what were you "wrong" about? These are your experiences, not your opinions. Did your eyes not see what they saw for all those years?
And this, SC, is why I ROTFLMAO every time I see you start another one of these threads. Tell me I can't debate? Heck son, you can't even debate your own "experience". "
What I wrong about is judging others on the equipment they use and their hit/miss ratios. What I was wrong about was the ease of use of crossbows compared to the ease of use of compounds - they are not all that different. My opinion and view has changed over the past year or so, thats clear, isn't it ? But you know, I aint ashamed of that nor will I apologize for it. JRW - you ever changed your mind about something ? I don't often, I am not easily swayed nor convinced, but on the crossbow debate I was. Why is the question I think you're wanting answered.
I applied the same logic to compounds vs longbows/recurves. Seriously. Those things I said a year ago - that argument was based on two things - #1 that crossbows are so easy to use and #2 that people are irresponsible with them. I think now that compounds are not all that more difficult and are in fact better weapons to use (and I have posted time and gain facts to back that), and that trying to regulate the archery population to adhere to a certain stadard be it ethical or functional - that too isn't possible nor is it the way things work.
Fact is, no one can stop that coworker of mine from hunting this weekend with his compound. He has a bow he's shot twice and can outshoot most recurve/longbow shooters at 20 yards. What more need he do ? Practice at 40 yards, practice at 60 yards ... whats the criteria and is that REALLY where we want archery to go - some kind of mandatory break in period or proficiency testing ? A lot of people would fail that - you and I on a given day might fail that, and then, even then you cannot stop a person from taking an ill advised shot - even 11 out of 12 ill advised shot if that were the case.
So yes, I was wrong in all of those assumptions, I was wrong on jumping on the bandwagon of the crossbow haters and ethcial police as the term goes. Quite a few people on here are thinking use what you want to as long as its legal and make smart shots - no judging, no my season and your season, not slurs on the equipment used. I think I have matured towards that and you know, I am fine with it as long as crossbows do nothing to take away from archery season. When its proven that they do then they need to be looked at again. Hasn't happened in Arkansas in 30+ years.
<u>Charlie P said that recurve/longbow shooters made the same cases against compounds early on - the more accurate comments, the easier to use comments, the whole drawing and holding weight issues, the slob hunters side ... in other words had they won, the majority of you posting and reading this topic would never have gotten a chance to use a compound bow - an easier to use and more effective overall weapon - in legal archery season. Think about that. Thats imnportant. how many of use shoot flintlocks ? How many inlines ? Be honest with yourself and tell me you choose a easier to use wepon because it better fits your hunting style ? And THATS FINE, and its exactly what crossbow shooters do. They still have to get 20-25 yards from an animal just like anyone else. Yes, they have a weapon that some consider easier to use, and some consider compounds that much easier to. Perspective - its all about perspective.</u>
So you might have been posting all those quotes to slur me or it might have been to prove an obscure point, but in no way was it debating the topic of compounds, crossbows and traditional style bows, was it ? When I was 16 I said a lot of things I didn't mean, when I was 23 I said and did a lot of things I shouldn't have and wouldn't again and I figure I'll continue to learn and grow throughout my life. Your anti-crossbow argument, the one you post in not so many words and expect people to assemble themselves over the course of a thread, doesn't hold water. I was on your side JRW, I argued too and eventually it dawned on me that I was saying MY archery season, MY opinons on what people should use, MY definiton of ethical - just like you are doing. I'm not saying rules shouldn't exist and that technology isn't going to far - in fact I have some other unpopular views that I like to voice occassionally - but to ban a bow such as a crossbow when the glaringly obvious similarities exist between it and a compound without applying the same in comparison with longbows/recurves - it just doesn't make sense to me and to a lot of people it seems.
On a personal note - I'd like to see people shooting longbows/recurves. I think they'd find its a lot of fun - something archery should be. But it ISN'T for me to decide nor dictate. Maybe not for you either. The G&F in Arkansas made that decision years ago ( you were going to tell me how long, right ??) so did Ohio and a couple of others I think and what do we have today ? Record deer herds, bigger bucks than ever, 5 month seasons and libieral bag limits. Crossbows are not bad here (based on those reasons, NOT opinion), I think states elsewhere are seeing that.
Stealthycat's Photo's
" You accuse others of not being able to debate, and dodging, but you exemplify the concept of selective memory? When Arrowsmit calls you to the mat for this, you simply explain it with "I was wrong". Well, what were you "wrong" about? These are your experiences, not your opinions. Did your eyes not see what they saw for all those years?
And this, SC, is why I ROTFLMAO every time I see you start another one of these threads. Tell me I can't debate? Heck son, you can't even debate your own "experience". "
What I wrong about is judging others on the equipment they use and their hit/miss ratios. What I was wrong about was the ease of use of crossbows compared to the ease of use of compounds - they are not all that different. My opinion and view has changed over the past year or so, thats clear, isn't it ? But you know, I aint ashamed of that nor will I apologize for it. JRW - you ever changed your mind about something ? I don't often, I am not easily swayed nor convinced, but on the crossbow debate I was. Why is the question I think you're wanting answered.
I applied the same logic to compounds vs longbows/recurves. Seriously. Those things I said a year ago - that argument was based on two things - #1 that crossbows are so easy to use and #2 that people are irresponsible with them. I think now that compounds are not all that more difficult and are in fact better weapons to use (and I have posted time and gain facts to back that), and that trying to regulate the archery population to adhere to a certain stadard be it ethical or functional - that too isn't possible nor is it the way things work.
Fact is, no one can stop that coworker of mine from hunting this weekend with his compound. He has a bow he's shot twice and can outshoot most recurve/longbow shooters at 20 yards. What more need he do ? Practice at 40 yards, practice at 60 yards ... whats the criteria and is that REALLY where we want archery to go - some kind of mandatory break in period or proficiency testing ? A lot of people would fail that - you and I on a given day might fail that, and then, even then you cannot stop a person from taking an ill advised shot - even 11 out of 12 ill advised shot if that were the case.
So yes, I was wrong in all of those assumptions, I was wrong on jumping on the bandwagon of the crossbow haters and ethcial police as the term goes. Quite a few people on here are thinking use what you want to as long as its legal and make smart shots - no judging, no my season and your season, not slurs on the equipment used. I think I have matured towards that and you know, I am fine with it as long as crossbows do nothing to take away from archery season. When its proven that they do then they need to be looked at again. Hasn't happened in Arkansas in 30+ years.
<u>Charlie P said that recurve/longbow shooters made the same cases against compounds early on - the more accurate comments, the easier to use comments, the whole drawing and holding weight issues, the slob hunters side ... in other words had they won, the majority of you posting and reading this topic would never have gotten a chance to use a compound bow - an easier to use and more effective overall weapon - in legal archery season. Think about that. Thats imnportant. how many of use shoot flintlocks ? How many inlines ? Be honest with yourself and tell me you choose a easier to use wepon because it better fits your hunting style ? And THATS FINE, and its exactly what crossbow shooters do. They still have to get 20-25 yards from an animal just like anyone else. Yes, they have a weapon that some consider easier to use, and some consider compounds that much easier to. Perspective - its all about perspective.</u>
So you might have been posting all those quotes to slur me or it might have been to prove an obscure point, but in no way was it debating the topic of compounds, crossbows and traditional style bows, was it ? When I was 16 I said a lot of things I didn't mean, when I was 23 I said and did a lot of things I shouldn't have and wouldn't again and I figure I'll continue to learn and grow throughout my life. Your anti-crossbow argument, the one you post in not so many words and expect people to assemble themselves over the course of a thread, doesn't hold water. I was on your side JRW, I argued too and eventually it dawned on me that I was saying MY archery season, MY opinons on what people should use, MY definiton of ethical - just like you are doing. I'm not saying rules shouldn't exist and that technology isn't going to far - in fact I have some other unpopular views that I like to voice occassionally - but to ban a bow such as a crossbow when the glaringly obvious similarities exist between it and a compound without applying the same in comparison with longbows/recurves - it just doesn't make sense to me and to a lot of people it seems.
On a personal note - I'd like to see people shooting longbows/recurves. I think they'd find its a lot of fun - something archery should be. But it ISN'T for me to decide nor dictate. Maybe not for you either. The G&F in Arkansas made that decision years ago ( you were going to tell me how long, right ??) so did Ohio and a couple of others I think and what do we have today ? Record deer herds, bigger bucks than ever, 5 month seasons and libieral bag limits. Crossbows are not bad here (based on those reasons, NOT opinion), I think states elsewhere are seeing that.
Stealthycat's Photo's
11-26-2002 | 02:07 PM
#147
Nontypical Buck
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 1,231
Likes: 0
From: Montgomery IL USA
RE: Ban compounds from archery season - thoughts ??
<font color=red>"I think I have matured towards that and you know, I am fine with it as long as crossbows do nothing to take away from archery season."</font id=red>
Oh, but wait a dog-gone minute here. When I quoted stats to show that IL, which does not allow crossguns carte blac, has more liberal bag limits for archery season than Ohio, who does allow them across the board...the wailing and whooping of "selfish" was heard throughout the land.
So, it's alright for you to use "do nothing to take away from archery season" as a litmus test, but not for people with whom you disagree? <img src=icon_smile_dissapprove.gif border=0 align=middle>
JRW
Oh, but wait a dog-gone minute here. When I quoted stats to show that IL, which does not allow crossguns carte blac, has more liberal bag limits for archery season than Ohio, who does allow them across the board...the wailing and whooping of "selfish" was heard throughout the land.
So, it's alright for you to use "do nothing to take away from archery season" as a litmus test, but not for people with whom you disagree? <img src=icon_smile_dissapprove.gif border=0 align=middle>
JRW
11-26-2002 | 02:30 PM
#148
Nontypical Buck
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 1,097
Likes: 0
From: Goose Creek SC
RE: Ban compounds from archery season - thoughts ??
Stealthy,
This is a rather intriguing thread. I think your arguements are self-defeating, however.
It does not matter what the weapon of choice is, if you do not spend extensive time practicing and getting to know the weapon, you will not have the skill levels required to use it in the woods. That is applicable to reifles, with or without scopes, shotguns, with or without scopes, crossbows, with or without scopes, compound bows, with or without sights, and traditional bows.
The key to all of these weapons is practicing enough with them so that you know what your maximum effective range is and setting up so that you will be well within that range when a deer follows the trail you expect it to trail. You must also know the entire area around your stand with known distances to trees in your vicinity so you will know if a deer is within your effective range if it happens to meander through the woods by some means other than the trail you expected.
With archery gear, which I would choose to define as compounds and traditional bows, you must also practice enough to train the muscle groups that are necessary for drawing and holding the bow for the shot. Why did I give up the compound for traditional gear? Because the comnpound was jarring my shoulder joints when I drew and had to letdown without shooting. I have found the traditional bow to actually be therapeutic in that regard.
I do believe you have changed your opinion within this thread as you have endeavored to defend/debate some of the other things you have said. The title of the thread is "Ban compounds from archery season"> Personally, I think you have achieved your purpose by stimulating a lengthy debate. However, in your last couple of posts you said something to the effect of "I have not suggested that compounds be banned from archery season." I believe the thread title suggests just that.
Give it a rest.
Bill
Praise the Lord, He is worthy
This is a rather intriguing thread. I think your arguements are self-defeating, however.
It does not matter what the weapon of choice is, if you do not spend extensive time practicing and getting to know the weapon, you will not have the skill levels required to use it in the woods. That is applicable to reifles, with or without scopes, shotguns, with or without scopes, crossbows, with or without scopes, compound bows, with or without sights, and traditional bows.
The key to all of these weapons is practicing enough with them so that you know what your maximum effective range is and setting up so that you will be well within that range when a deer follows the trail you expect it to trail. You must also know the entire area around your stand with known distances to trees in your vicinity so you will know if a deer is within your effective range if it happens to meander through the woods by some means other than the trail you expected.
With archery gear, which I would choose to define as compounds and traditional bows, you must also practice enough to train the muscle groups that are necessary for drawing and holding the bow for the shot. Why did I give up the compound for traditional gear? Because the comnpound was jarring my shoulder joints when I drew and had to letdown without shooting. I have found the traditional bow to actually be therapeutic in that regard.
I do believe you have changed your opinion within this thread as you have endeavored to defend/debate some of the other things you have said. The title of the thread is "Ban compounds from archery season"> Personally, I think you have achieved your purpose by stimulating a lengthy debate. However, in your last couple of posts you said something to the effect of "I have not suggested that compounds be banned from archery season." I believe the thread title suggests just that.
Give it a rest.
Bill
Praise the Lord, He is worthy
11-26-2002 | 02:46 PM
#149
Nontypical Buck
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 1,231
Likes: 0
From: Montgomery IL USA
RE: Ban compounds from archery season - thoughts ??
Further more, and apparently I failed to illustrate the point sufficiently...
Previously, when you were, as you put it, "anti-crossbow", you used isolated incidents of slobs carrying crossbows to draw conclusions about crossbow hunters across the board...which was wrong. In all the times I've debated this issue, here, on the Bowsite, other sites, and in person, I've never once tried to play the "slob card" that's so en vogue. Personally, I've never had the inherent ability to determine someone's ethics by the legal equipment they carry afield.
Now that you've flip-flopped, you're still using isolated incidents to draw conclusions across the board, and it's still wrong. For example...Pat and his missed grizzly bear, your buddies the "pin cushion brigade", and your co-worker who took to a decked-out compound like a fish to water.
Just like before, you ignore anyone else's experiences that contradict your assertions, but hail those which do. For example...Paul Brunner's experience, my experience, and all of the wounding threads on this forum by hunters using compounds.
You expect folks to accept your experiences as the rule, while dismissing other's as the exception. SC, that's not what "debating" is all about. That's what hypocricy is all about (not to be rude).
This is what CharlieP tried to tell you, on this very thread, when he said something to the effect that you seem to think that your experiences are indicitive of the way things are everywhere. But, you missed what he tried to say, time and time again.
In addition, you talk about debating things, but you have repeatedly failed to grasp some obvious and indisputable facts concerning your arguments. It was stated to you that the only effective difference between compounds and trad bows is the let-off. Everything that you mentioned in order to increase the difference (sights, machined risers, releases, etc.) are all things that can be used, or incorporated into, trad bows. I thought you understood this. You seemed to understand this. But later in this very thread, you went right back to it again...going full circle for the ump-teenth time.
This, SC, is why I keep asking if you've caught your tail yet.
Look...I have no problem debating crossguns in archery seasons. What I refuse to do is "debate", while the other person ignores indisputable facts and keeps spinning in circles.
If you ever want to really debate me on this, I'd be happy to. But, I refuse to help you chase your tail again. Much like Tim Allen's stand-up routine, it was cute once or twice, but it's just gotten old, stale, and boring.
JRW
Previously, when you were, as you put it, "anti-crossbow", you used isolated incidents of slobs carrying crossbows to draw conclusions about crossbow hunters across the board...which was wrong. In all the times I've debated this issue, here, on the Bowsite, other sites, and in person, I've never once tried to play the "slob card" that's so en vogue. Personally, I've never had the inherent ability to determine someone's ethics by the legal equipment they carry afield.
Now that you've flip-flopped, you're still using isolated incidents to draw conclusions across the board, and it's still wrong. For example...Pat and his missed grizzly bear, your buddies the "pin cushion brigade", and your co-worker who took to a decked-out compound like a fish to water.
Just like before, you ignore anyone else's experiences that contradict your assertions, but hail those which do. For example...Paul Brunner's experience, my experience, and all of the wounding threads on this forum by hunters using compounds.
You expect folks to accept your experiences as the rule, while dismissing other's as the exception. SC, that's not what "debating" is all about. That's what hypocricy is all about (not to be rude).
This is what CharlieP tried to tell you, on this very thread, when he said something to the effect that you seem to think that your experiences are indicitive of the way things are everywhere. But, you missed what he tried to say, time and time again.
In addition, you talk about debating things, but you have repeatedly failed to grasp some obvious and indisputable facts concerning your arguments. It was stated to you that the only effective difference between compounds and trad bows is the let-off. Everything that you mentioned in order to increase the difference (sights, machined risers, releases, etc.) are all things that can be used, or incorporated into, trad bows. I thought you understood this. You seemed to understand this. But later in this very thread, you went right back to it again...going full circle for the ump-teenth time.
This, SC, is why I keep asking if you've caught your tail yet.
Look...I have no problem debating crossguns in archery seasons. What I refuse to do is "debate", while the other person ignores indisputable facts and keeps spinning in circles.
If you ever want to really debate me on this, I'd be happy to. But, I refuse to help you chase your tail again. Much like Tim Allen's stand-up routine, it was cute once or twice, but it's just gotten old, stale, and boring.
JRW
11-26-2002 | 03:00 PM
#150
Thread Starter
Nontypical Buck
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 3,643
Likes: 0
From: ......
RE: Ban compounds from archery season - thoughts ??
" Oh, but wait a dog-gone minute here. When I quoted stats to show that IL, which does not allow crossguns carte blac, has more liberal bag limits for archery season than Ohio, who does allow them across the board...the wailing and whooping of "selfish" was heard throughout the land.
So, it's alright for you to use "do nothing to take away from archery season" as a litmus test, but not for people with whom you disagree? "
Are you then saying that crossbows are the reason Ohio has less of a season/less bag limits BECAUSE of crossbows ? I called the Ohio Division of Wildlife at (614) 644-3925 and asked if, since 1976 when crossbows were made legal if they could tell me if archery season had been shortened or bag limits changed for archery hunters and they said no and no. I browsed a bit and couldn't find hard stats on it so I called. IF there was a rduction of season or limit and crossbows were the reason, then I will admit you have a very strong point and would debate that and listen closely. I guess I am asking you to prove that a smaller season in OH is directly due to crossbows being legal - the G&F says no.
state hunters kills
Illinois 105,000 35,400 33.7%
Arkansas 70,000 20,500 29.2%
Ohio 180,500 26,000 14.4$
http://www.hoyesoutdoor.com/success.htm
Is archery season based on managment principles ? In other words, if the success rate climbs too high or if too many deer are killed are the seasons or bag limits scaled back ? Has this happened ? Success rates show the two states with crossbows actually having lower success rates. I don't know how the correlation is between how many archery hunters vs how many total hunters.
http://hunting.about.com/library/weekly/aa020716a.htm
A goog read.
Bill - You are right in that the title was not literal and that points have been made. My bussy is amazed at the crossbow animosity that still exists. I heard the other night at a meeting here in AR at a private company planning an on-grounds hunt that two guys - a compound shooter and a crossbow shooter, had to be seperated the argument got so heated. Amazing, isn't it ? And the compound shooter never once thought that a longbow/recurve shooter could have laid the same claims to him that he did to the crossbow shooter.
Is enough enough ? I HAVE been trying lately to let threads die (Jacko and the airline debates to name a couple) ... I will this one as well soon enough. And I will edit the Thread Title too ...
Stealthycat's Photo's
So, it's alright for you to use "do nothing to take away from archery season" as a litmus test, but not for people with whom you disagree? "
Are you then saying that crossbows are the reason Ohio has less of a season/less bag limits BECAUSE of crossbows ? I called the Ohio Division of Wildlife at (614) 644-3925 and asked if, since 1976 when crossbows were made legal if they could tell me if archery season had been shortened or bag limits changed for archery hunters and they said no and no. I browsed a bit and couldn't find hard stats on it so I called. IF there was a rduction of season or limit and crossbows were the reason, then I will admit you have a very strong point and would debate that and listen closely. I guess I am asking you to prove that a smaller season in OH is directly due to crossbows being legal - the G&F says no.
state hunters kills
Illinois 105,000 35,400 33.7%
Arkansas 70,000 20,500 29.2%
Ohio 180,500 26,000 14.4$
http://www.hoyesoutdoor.com/success.htm
Is archery season based on managment principles ? In other words, if the success rate climbs too high or if too many deer are killed are the seasons or bag limits scaled back ? Has this happened ? Success rates show the two states with crossbows actually having lower success rates. I don't know how the correlation is between how many archery hunters vs how many total hunters.
http://hunting.about.com/library/weekly/aa020716a.htm
A goog read.
Bill - You are right in that the title was not literal and that points have been made. My bussy is amazed at the crossbow animosity that still exists. I heard the other night at a meeting here in AR at a private company planning an on-grounds hunt that two guys - a compound shooter and a crossbow shooter, had to be seperated the argument got so heated. Amazing, isn't it ? And the compound shooter never once thought that a longbow/recurve shooter could have laid the same claims to him that he did to the crossbow shooter.
Is enough enough ? I HAVE been trying lately to let threads die (Jacko and the airline debates to name a couple) ... I will this one as well soon enough. And I will edit the Thread Title too ...
Stealthycat's Photo's