<font size=2>1. I skirted nothing for you. I've laid out my position many MANY times on different forums...for you. For that, you chase your tail, pretend that I never answered you, and lied about me to try to get me to engage you in your &quot;issues&quot;. You need some help.</font id=size2>

Uh, yeah, you did. You haven't answered a single question on your opinion on crossbows so far. What you may or may not have said on another forum, whether I or anyone else read it and whether we exactly remember it, or you, thats NOT an answer in any way, shape or form.

<font size=2>2. You, TxCowboy, and BOWFANATIC have already made up your minds that the ONLY reason to oppose crossguns in archery seasons is selfishness. You're minds are closed, and the name-calling begun. Why entertain you three further? Is there a point to it?</font id=size2>

A lie as defined by you. I ASKED if that was the reason, never did I say it. Please reread and edit that lie.

<font size=2>When you get to the point where you understand why archery seasons were started, by whom they were started, and the underlying premise of them, maybe you'll get it. When you start to understand who has fought for decades for your right to bowhunt, and who has conributed nothing to the equation, maybe you'll understand. I doubt it though.

Until then you hang you hat on catering to the least common denominator, and making everything as easy as possible. And you call others selfish? That's laughable at best.

When you think that the sole purpose of archery seasons is to let you grab something with a string, go into the woods, and kill a critter with a sharp stick flying through the air...don't start calling anyone else selfish. You're the case-in-point.</font id=size2>

Humble me. Again I ask - what did Mathews or Bowtech do for archery season ? Is that part of the equation, who did what and for whom ?

<font size=2>SC...

I understand how you got to the point that you are now. From what I've seen of you over the past year, you somehow got the impression that hunting with a longbow would be &quot;cool&quot;. Maybe it was one too many Fred Bear videos or something? You started pounding your chest, talking about how you had &quot;given up the training wheels&quot;, sold your compounds, and &quot;committed yourself&quot; to being a &quot;traditional bowhunter&quot;. You got a longbow, shot it for a while, and headed to the woods. After just one month, and having taken no deer, it didn't suit you anymore. Suddenly, the &quot;en vougue&quot; of trad lost its shine and you, admittedly, went with something you refer to as easier.</font id=size2>

I bought and shot my first longbow, a Thunder Mountain Cougar in 1995. In 1998 I think I started getting ready for bowseason early summer. First few shots with my compound were dead on - and it ust wasn't that fun anymore. I shot more in the early 1990's than most people have in 20 years. Contracting and single shooting a bow was the only thing I did. Anyway, a friend of mine shoots a BW, and I strated shooting it some. And I found it very challenging. OL Adcock made me a longbow and I got it in January 2001. I shot it all that spring and summer and by fall wasn't consistant enough to go hunting. So I bought another compound and hunted with that in 2001. This year I sold the compound and yes, I &quot;committed&quot; myself to shooting the longbow. I shoot well enough in my eyes to hunt, and the first day in CO I hit a limb and missed a big elk. I hunted semi-hard (between work and kids) in Arkansas and didn't even get a shot. So 4 weeks ago before my Kansas hunt (I waited two years for that tag) I borrowed the HC compound I started this thread off with, tuned it and took it to KS. I switched between it and my longbow, but the last few days used my longbow only. I was shooting every night in the basement of my friends and was shooting better than either of them do. And yep, I again had my arrow hit a limb and missed a big KS buck. VERY frustrating, because I have spent two years practicing, getting my equipment ready, ASKING questions on the LW, and failing to fill my tags. I have goals, I make them every year, and this year I had 4 and have failed in 2 of them.

So you see, you DON'T understand, not anymore than I do your anti-crossbow sentiment, but I DO answer questions when asked of me. Brose the BBS archives and LW and you too could read what I just wrote.

<font size=2>&quot; You're not unique. I see your kind every year by the boat-load. Hollier-that thou trad shooter one day...compound-toting trad-basher the next. You float of the winds of whatever suits your needs and damn the rest of us for not agreeing with you. The guys that I shoot and hunt with, compound and trad alike, just sit back and laugh at you and your type. &quot;</font id=size2>

My kind ? You haven't a clue Jason. I hunt with one BW shooter, my Dad (a Q2 shooter) and my uncle, a crossbow shooter. Trad basher ? Explain that one or edit it please, as it again follows what you consider to be the defintion of a LIE.

<font size=2>In the course of this, you somehow became a self-proclaimed expert on hunting with a trad bow. You seem to think that your fruitless month in the woods negates the experiences of people like Paul Brunner, who has 45 years as a bowhunter under his belt. How? I have no idea.</font id=size2>

Age is wisdom to some, to be respected to be sure. but it doesn't make everyone older than me right. ANYBODY pro-abortion is wrong, and I can prove it through pogical and reasonable and FACTUAL discussions. Whatever you are referencing, be it kill/wound/miss threads or crossbow thread or how a longbow/recurve is more difficult threads - you will rarely if EVER see me post my opinion without something to back it up. Opinions hold absolutely NO weight in a debate or discussion.

<font size=2>What I do find funny is that you only came to this great conclusion of yours after you bombed out, like a druggy on the SAT test, at hunting with a longbow. Look...you want to give up the longbow and go back to a compound...fine. Who cares other than you? I hunt with guys who make the P&Y equipment rules look like a Model T, and I couldn't care less. I hunt with guys who's idea of fair chase is 300 yards accross a bean field with a 7mm...so what? They hunt their way, I hunt mine, and we don't think any less of each other for it. You're the only one who has made your own equipment choice such a massive internet issue. I don't know if its some sort of unfounded guilt on your part, or your just looking for a way to bow out of your previous &quot;training wheels&quot; remarks.</font id=size2>

Yes, I am 0 for 2 so far, I have failed in what I am trying to accomplish. Is that waht you are referring ? Today I shoot a longbow Jason, and if I cannot kill animals with it to MY ethical standards, then I will buy me a compound and hunt that way and so be it. I have little problems in admitting that I am not good enough to be hunting with it. Is this a bad thing ? And if I become disabled, or in some way need to use a crossbow, I'll do that do and thank whoever in Arkansas made it possible for me to do that.

<font size=2>When you first &quot;found God&quot; in the form of a longbow, you came accross as hollier-than-thou, and I didn't much care for it then. When you fell flat on your face and went searching for a way out, you still came across as hollier-than thou...and I still don't care for it.</font id=size2>

What ?

<font size=2>You can vent your unfounded guilt at me all you want by calling me names and lieing about me. That's fine. When you get your own personal issues sorted out, let me know. Until then, you might want to watch those &quot;hollier than thou&quot; and &quot;selfish&quot; rocks you're throwing, because your glass house is becoming a total wreck.</font id=size2>

Question - What rocks ? Were my posts not in the way of questions more than accusations ? I edited the one post as I admitted I was wrong. What then am I throwing to break glass ? My arguments are quite solid I think, from &quot;drawing the string&quot; issue to &quot;accessories&quot;, to &quot;who has done more or less for hunting seasons&quot; to &quot;selfishness&quot;.



Stealthycat's Photo's

Edited by - Stealthycat on 11/23/2002 18:01:55

And a one, and a two, and a...

Yawn....

JRW

Once you've committed to allowing non-archery equipment (crossbows) into an ARCHERY season (particularly by reasoning of &quot;it's easier&quot; or &quot;I don't have the time to become proficient with bows&quot; or &quot;I want every technological edge I can get to help me kill a deer if one comes by&quot, you may as well accept flintlocks, in-lines, shotguns, rifles into the archery season as well.

If you feel that you would have no chance of killing a deer with a bow and that your chances of killing game would be nill or your time spent would be little more than a &quot;nature walk&quot;, then hunt the general big game seasons like everyone else who doesn't use a bow. If you are afraid you can't shoot a bow well enough to kill a deer cleanly beyond 10 or 15 yds, then don't shoot at one past 10 or 15 yds. No one said bowhunting is easy. If your kids can't pull a 35# or 40# bow back, bring them along to sit in the woods with you. They'll learn alot and enjoy the experience until they've matured the following year.

Some people seem to care less if archery season were done away with altogether. I think some would be quite pleased to have one 3 week season where anything goes. As for me, I'll be damned if I want to risk Pennsylvania's already-short archery season get cut back due to increased kills by an influx of crossbows or guns into the ARCHERY season...particulary not for people who wants to use &quot;easier&quot; or &quot;less demanding&quot; equipment.

If crossbow hunters aren't content using their weapons in the general seasons, then they can fight for their own season instead of trying to ride in on the coat tails of bowhunters. They sure don't belong in ARCHERY season.

AK - At least you have an opinion and can post it !

<font size=2>&quot; Once you've committed to allowing non-archery equipment (crossbows) into an ARCHERY season (particularly by reasoning of &quot;it's easier&quot; or &quot;I don't have the time to become proficient with bows&quot; or &quot;I want every technological edge I can get to help me kill a deer if one comes by&quot, you may as well accept flintlocks, in-lines, shotguns, rifles into the archery season as well. &quot;</font id=size2>

First off, crossbows go back centuries as archery equipment. To say they are not simply isn't so. Also, as crossbows are easier than compounds, certainly compounds are much easier that longbows/recurves. Your analogy doesn't take into account maximum range of a weapon. With todays techonology, I think thats important. Why ? An inline muzzleloader is legal in most if not all states, and it certainly isn't as traditonal as a cap lock or flintlock. Neither are the sabots and rifle bullets and podwer pellets that make them accurate at 200+ yards with scopes ! But they are legal. See the comparison ? Look at the HUGE changes in compounds in the last 15-20 years - they are nowhere near the same weapons as before.

<font size=2>If you feel that you would have no chance of killing a deer with a bow and that your chances of killing game would be nill or your time spent would be little more than a &quot;nature walk&quot;, then hunt the general big game seasons like everyone else who doesn't use a bow. If you are afraid you can't shoot a bow well enough to kill a deer cleanly beyond 10 or 15 yds, then don't shoot at one past 10 or 15 yds. No one said bowhunting is easy. If your kids can't pull a 35# or 40# bow back, bring them along to sit in the woods with you. They'll learn alot and enjoy the experience until they've matured the following year. </font id=size2>

Personally I feel like I am capable of killing a deer with my longbos and I know when to shoot and when not to. I haven't proved it yet obviously, but both shots I missed &quot;felt&quot; good had I not hit branches. I did not have the confidence last year, and I didn't hunt with my longbow. I agree though, be able to hit what you aim at/look at and practice and work hard at it.

<font size=2>Some people seem to care less if archery season were done away with altogether. I think some would be quite pleased to have one 3 week season where anything goes. As for me, I'll be damned if I want to risk Pennsylvania's already-short archery season get cut back due to increased kills by an influx of crossbows or guns into the ARCHERY season...particulary not for people who wants to use &quot;easier&quot; or &quot;less demanding&quot; equipment.</font id=size2>

I don't know about Penn, but Arkansas is 5 months, liberal bag limit with does, the woods are never crowded and we allow crossbows, have for over 30 years I believe. I don't believe the reality of crossbows taking season and limits away - its certainly never happened here. HOWEVER, as with IL and archers taking 40+% of the kill, then I can see the possibility now. But in that crossbows need a seperate season, so do compounds, right ? Keeping crossbows out now becomes a selfish issue, wanting to keep hunter numbers down to keep archery season open longer, right ? Thats the track I get from VC's post, can more hunters EVER be a bad thing ?

<font size=2>If crossbow hunters aren't content using their weapons in the general seasons, then they can fight for their own season instead of trying to ride in on the coat tails of bowhunters. They sure don't belong in ARCHERY season.</font id=size2>

Same exact thing can be said of compounds, and was 25 years ago, wasn't it ? Following your line of logic, we shouldn't allow more advances in archery products for fear of something else like the compound to come along and totally revolutionize archery, right ? P&Y is still hung up on 65% letoff when most bows that are being bought are 80% or variable, right ? And again I ask, what did Matthews and Bow Tech do for creating archery seasons 25 years ago ? Nothing. What they HAVE done is create radical techonology and the best damn shooting compounds available that take accuracy, forgiveness and quietness to a new level - making for a more efficient hutnign tool that is easier to use.


Stealthycat's Photo's

Stealthy, Yes, crossbows date back many centuries. That still doesn't make them ARCHERY equipment. While I make my own wooden hunting bows and arrows, I certainly don't expect every bowhunter to do the same. Nor do I expect bowhunters to use only manufactured, glass-laminated longbows or recurves. I DO, however, expect bowhunters to use hand drawn, hand held BOWS in the ARCHERY season. If nothing else, the movement and physical effort required to pull a bow shot off at game is a critical point as to whether or not the hunter spooks the game.

As to more hunters being a good thing... In reality, allowing crossbows will likely not generate many NEW hunters. Allowing crossbows in the ARCHERY season does stand to generate an enormous amount of existing rifle hunters to 2-season crossbow converts however. In a state of 1,000,000 hunters and 250,000 bowhunters, there is the potential for 750,000 additonal converts to find their way into the ARCHERY season. Bowhunters are already limited to a 6-week fall and 2-week winter ARCHERY seasons, with a one buck limit and up to 3 doe tags in most of the state. (Though realistically, most counties sell out of their alloted doe tags after the first or second round of tag issuance, leaving the hunter with 1 buck and 1 or 2 doe tags.) Add to that mix that we have game commissioners who openly declare their desire to shorten the bow season, and there exists a very real danger of the ARCHERY season becoming shortened if deer kills rise in the ARCHERY season.

Bowhunters wanting to preserve the integrity and heritage of a season set aside for them to use more difficult equipment is hardly selfish. Non-bowhunters trying to intrude their advanced weapons into such a season is. Pennsylvania has at least disallowed the use of draw-lock devices from the archery season...though typical of game commission logic, has allowed the limited use of crossbows for use in the ARCHERY season in special regulation areas only. In PA, flintlock hunters are also battling the cap 'n ball and in-line shooters trying to squeeze their way into the winter flintlock season under similar guises. I feel for them as well.

Crossbow hunters should at least have the guts to admit that crossbows are what they are, and to either use them in the general big game seasons or stand up and fight for their own season if they truely want one. Though I suppose in a society where education has been &quot;dumbed down&quot; to make it easier for students to pass classes, where infant pre-birth murder is condoned to eliminate unwanted responsibilities of parenthood, where instant gratification has become the norm, we should only expect that trivial things like ARCHERY hunting seasons are made to make &quot;easier&quot; to accomodate those who lack inclination to face even recreational challenge.

My final words (hopefully) on the subject:
Crossbows are NOT NEARLY as similar to ANY bow, as a compound is to a trad bow. To say otherwise lacks common sence.
You need not draw, hold wieght, maintain proper form and follow through, and it's really tough to accidently shoot yourself with a bow.
IF you simply cannot shoot a bow (handicapped) I would allow a Xbow. if you CAN shoot a bow...bring one come archery season....or don't come.
Trad bows are harder to shoot than a compound with sights....that does NOT mean they (compounds) are not bows!
The drawing holding and releasing of an arrow, who's energy comes entirely from the archer drawing the bow, to me is what a bow is. I don't care if it's zero let off, or 90%. as long as it isn't 100%.
Tell me, SC, what about compounds without sights? That's kinda tough too...is THAT OK by your book?

My final words (hopefully) on the subject:
Crossbows are NOT NEARLY as similar to ANY bow, as a compound is to a trad bow. To say otherwise lacks common sence.
You need not draw, hold wieght, maintain proper form and follow through, and it's really tough to accidently shoot yourself with a bow.
IF you simply cannot shoot a bow (handicapped) I would allow a Xbow. if you CAN shoot a bow...bring one come archery season....or don't come.
Trad bows are harder to shoot than a compound with sights....that does NOT mean they (compounds) are not bows!
The drawing holding and releasing of an arrow, who's energy comes entirely from the archer drawing the bow, to me is what a bow is. I don't care if it's zero let off, or 90%. as long as it isn't 100%.
Tell me, SC, what about compounds without sights? That's kinda tough too...is THAT OK by your book?

More like a muzzle-loader or shotgun than any bow in its operation, a crossbow is a short range, one shot rifle that shoots a bolt instead of a bullet. It has no place in any general archery season.

[Deleted by Admins]

In either case you have to be able to tell distance or you are going to miss your shot altogether anyhow so what would be the real difference in a compound or crossbow?All bows are the same if you really look at the perspective on it.