Shooting Does!!??
 

Why does everyone want to shoot so many does...killing one doe is like killing 10 deer and probably 5 bucks....in some areas where there is a lot of deer i can see taking a doe or two....but it seems like people act like we need to kill does to reduce the herd and I dont see why hunters would want a reduced deer herd.....I guess i just get frustrated because i hunt on public land and the ammount of doe tags and earn a buck stuff the DNR has done has pretty much destroyed hunting in many areas......

RE: Shooting Does!!??
 

Because where I live.....the land just won't sustain the number of deer we'd have if no does were taken.

Also the overall SIZE of the deer herd where I live is stunted due to the sheer number of animals.

The bucks can't DIRECTLY make more deer.....so the best way to control the population is to go to the source. That's what we do (as a hunting community).

YOUR area may not need the does thinned. Do some research and find out.

Jeff

RE: Shooting Does!!??
 

Because they taste good!!

RE: Shooting Does!!??
 

I spend a lot of time in the woods and talk to a lot of land owners in the area...I dont need to go read what some PHD from the DNR who has never been in the woods tells me...I know how many deer the area can handle by spending time in the woods....a few years ago you could walk in the woods and see deer trails and sign....now you have to spend half a day to find ONE deer trail.....

RE: Shooting Does!!??
 

Then don't shoot 'em?

What do you want to hear?

Jeff

RE: Shooting Does!!??
 

The reduction of does can have a great effect on the quality of the deer herd in your hunting area. Killing a doe is really like taking 3 deer out of the environment. Reducing the amount of does will reduce the number of deer being born that coming spring, (bucks and does). It will also help in making the public land you hunt hold a much better quality deer herd by reducing the amount of browse needed to sustain a deer herd. Not many state lands are planted with deer friendly foods. Also reducing the buck to doe ratio will help in seeing more bucks during the chase and post rut periods as competition for does is higher. Less does more bucks means they have to fight for breeding rights. Planned reduction of does will lead to a quality deer herd if done properly. Earn a buck programs are used to fight the stigma of people not shooting does and forces a hunter to participate in a doe harvest to get the opportunity to shoot a buck. In some areas in Michigan deer are thought of as nothing more than large rats that destroy croplands and cause car accidents, creating an enormous economic impact(your insurance premiums). In case you haven't noticed Whitetails means $$$ to many people, in and out of the hunting industry.

RE: Shooting Does!!??
 

Wow.I don't even know what to say to that.

Hunting is always going to be a double-edged sword. We all want to see more and bigger deer, but at the same time we as hunters are a tool that is used to manage the deer herd and keep it to an acceptable level. This is not only to ensure the health of the overall herd, but to reduce the impact on the environment, reduce crop damage in agricultural areas, minimize car/deer collisions, etc. In most areas of the country the buck/doe ratio is not what it should be and deer are simply overpopulated, hence the need to kill more does than bucks. By doing so you're not only improving the health of the herd as a whole, but you're improving your hunting quality as well. A more balanced herd makes for a more intense rut and more buck sightings. You might not see the huge groups of 10-15 does that you once did, but overall you should see more bucks.

There are very few, if any, areas of the country with whitetail populations that are hurting. Not seeing the ridiculous amount of sign you once did means that hunters are doing their job at controlling the population, and this is achieved through earn-a-buck type regulations, than so be it.

Remember, we're not hunting to increase the population of deer, we're hunting to maintain or decrease it. ;)

RE: Shooting Does!!??
 

I wasnt trying to say it is wrong to shoot does, I guess it would just be nice if people took a genuine look at how many deer are in the area they are hunting before they do shoot does....I realize that with a bow any deer is a trophy....and i also know that in many areas of the country it is important to take a few does to manage the herd..... I just dont see why everyone is so gung ho about reducing the deer population....

RE: Shooting Does!!??
 

Seems like a DNR with a PHD would perhaps knowjust a little bit more about the carrying capacity of a particular area than you suggest.
However, I will agree they are not always correct.

RE: Shooting Does!!??
 

About20 years ago my friend, who owns about 350 acres in Western New York, started paying closer attention to how he (and the very few of us he allows to hunt on his land) harvested deer. We implemented a self-imposed rule of "eight-points or better", while at the same time we took all mature bucks (2 1/2 years or older) that had what we deemed "inferior" racks (stunted antler growth, cow-horns, etc.). To add to this we took as many does as we wanted, provided they weren't huge does (what we call "Doezillas"), or dominant does...Yes, believe it or not, there is such a thing as a dominant doe (She's the one who always appears to be watching over the others, you know, the one who always busts you!). As a result, his land is populated with a large number of nice "clone" eight-points, with a few 10's and 12's in the mix, too. There are still plenty of does, but because (as a result of our methods) the buck to doe ratio is now pretty close to 1:2, only the dominant bucks successfully breed, and you can rattle in deer easier. We have seen the health and size of the deer improve greatly, their bone structure, teeth, and the density and gloss of their coats are fantastic, and even the venison tastes better (at least in my opinion). And these deer are not fed from feeders. There are plenty of crops (corn, alfalfa, oats) as well as clover, buckwheat and apples for them to eat. This method may, or may not, have any scientific basis...but it works, and I've seen it with my own eyes!

RE: Shooting Does!!??
 

I'll tell you why you should shoot does. If you start off in the perfect world with a 1:1 buck to doe ratio, over time, the ratio will deteriorate. You will end up having way too many does. This is because the mortality rate is greater for bucks than it is for does. Does disperse their buck fawns each spring. This leaves the buck fawns to head out to unfamilar territory in search of a new home ground. This can be dangerous because not knowing the land makes them easy prey for predators and greatly increases their chances of being killed on the roads. Also, older breeding bucks spread themselves thin during the rut. Sometimes they wear themselves down so much that they will not survive the winter. Worn down bucks are also easy prey for predators. They also travel into unfamiliar territory during the rut and become at risk the same as the dispersed yearlings. By just this, in itself, you can see why the does will start out numbering the bucks. Now throw hunting into the equation. Hunters by tradition have always sought out bucks way more than does. A lot of state regulations helped add to the problem by making it mandatory to hunt only bucks. Over time this leads to disaster. I've hunted in areas where there was a 1:20 buck to doe ratio. This is bad because EVERY buck is going to breed. Even the 1 1/2s, spikes, forks, every buck. There goes the "survival of the fittest". The gene pool becomes weak, you have gross overpopulation and the end result is an unhealthy deer herd.

I have an example of this. I hunted a place near my home since I was 12 years old. At first,I never saw any deer or even knew that they existed in this place. By the time I was 15, I started seeing tracks and finally spotted my first deer. When I was 25, I had a decent population of deer and started hunting them. At this time every 1 1/2 year old deer that I saw (buck), had a small 8 point rack. I even shot one that had 10 points as a 1 1/2. All of the 3 1/2s and some of the 2 1/2s would make P&Y. There were no spikes, forks or even any 6 pointers that I saw. This lasted for about 10 years.Thenthe land around there started being sold and developed. No one would let you hunt. They wanted to see all the deer. I was still able to hunt because my landowner was the last one to sell. I got about 5 more years there. Pretty soon, with changing weather patterns and abundant food supply, things began to change. I started seeing more and more does, 1 1/2s that had 4 and 6 points, then finally one day I was shocked.... I saw a SPIKE!!! What was going on? Well, like I said up top, more and more younger, inferior bucks began breeding, due to warmer winters, more and more doe fawns began breeding and before I knew it, the quality of the herd had drastically went down. I saw a 2 week old fawn on the opening of archery season (Sept. 23) Back track from there 210 days. That doe was bred in late Feb or early March. Usually the prime breeding bucks have lost their antlers and have become sterile by then. The breeding was most likly accomplished by a younger less desirable buck. Not a good situation.

I hope this makes sense to you so you can see the importance of doe harvests and its impact on the quality of the herd.

HRAOP

RE: Shooting Does!!??
 

Once again, great post by GregH.
Thanks for the education!

RE: Shooting Does!!??
 

GregH.....

Wow.

Thanks.

Jeff

RE: Shooting Does!!??
 

And there ya have it. Not too many get to see that first hand, something that has happened to PA long ago and why PA needed straightend out and now it's happening and Greg explained it perfectly. It's something not too many think about. I know you don't need to hear it from me but Great Post GregH.

RE: Shooting Does!!??
 

You hit the nail on the head with this great post!

RE: Shooting Does!!??
 

Well for maby the first time i think i understand the importance of taking doe`s more than i did?Thanks for explaning things GregH.

RE: Shooting Does!!??
 

Thanks passthru for bringing up this post. it just got some really good info to surface on this forum. Greg that was an amazing explanation on buck doe ratios. passthru what state are you hunting in?
Dan

RE: Shooting Does!!??
 

Thanks for the ARAPPAHO award, Rob. What the heck does that mean?

RE: Shooting Does!!??
 

Honoray Rack Award for Outstanding Post!

It can only be given by a mod, non-mods and self imposed don't count. ;)

RE: Shooting Does!!??
 

Thanks again, Rob.

RE: Shooting Does!!??
 

Maybe look at it this way. Killing off some does makes more room for other deer to move in from other areas. We know that most bucks are pushed from their birth territory early in life. If they find lots of cover, food, low competitionand space they'll settle in your area. They pick a home territory NOT based on lots of does to breed in a 2 week period. They pick it for the reasons stated above. I agree the DNRs have gone over board in some areas and states and they find out when kill numbers fall. They then revamp their doe permits etc. NY has had a big decline in doe tags in some countiesand more in others the past 2 or 3 years. They do it based on kill reports. That's why it's important to file them as required by law.

RE: Shooting Does!!??
 

Greg pretty much summed it up. Charles Alsheimer wrote that with too many does the bucks would spend an overly amount of time breeding when they should have gotten back to eating before the harsh weather sets in, thusly adding to their weakened state and adversely affecting their chances of survival. He also suggested there was no real "second rut" but that actually what was happening was with so many does the bucks aren't able to service all of them and the ones that don't get breed in the rut go into a dormant stage and come into heat later in the season, therefore later breeding by bucks instead of foraging. NCYankee also has a good post and something that could be missed. I always thought taking a large older doe was the best but saw a show that was indicating younger does should be taken to reduce herds as the older does would be drying up and less productive in their olde years as opposed to a younger doe which would have more years ahead for production.

RE: Shooting Does!!??
 

Where im at. Were forced to shoot a doe, Before we can shoot a buck. I dont like it. But owell

The more does we kill the better chance of buck ratio. Theres to many does in our area. so the WDNR has found a way to get rid of some does. because alot of people wont shoot a doe. I have no problem shooting a doe. I even shoot does when its not required to shoot a doe before a buck. A doe is a deer isnt it? It has meat dosnt it? You dont eat horns do ya? There ya go.

RE: Shooting Does!!??
 

Here's a statistic (can't remember the source) for you that might give you a clue:
Number of deer-related vehicle accidents in Fairfax County, Virginia: more than 5,000

Any more questions?

RE: Shooting Does!!??
 

this is totally off topic but I thought that arappahoe thing was queen Latifa!