DBL-LUNG

What is the opinion on culling out spike bucks. I have heard several different ideas about improving the heard.

I have 100 acres to hunt, which butts up to 770 acres of county park that no one is supposed to hunt. We are implementing a six point and bigger rule. This is the fourth year of it, and wow! what a difference we have seen in the amount of buck plus the quality. But that problem of shooting scrubs and spikes keeps arising. We are noticing that there are a few more spikes than I thought should be there. Is the nutrition not high enough or is it genetics. Do we shoot them so they don't breed? Or should we "Let them go, so they can Grow"

Questions?????

mez

You need to read the last issue of Bowhunter. There is a very informative article on spike buck development. The article stated that by 3.5 years the bucks that were spikes have better antlers than the forkhorn bucks. It will answer your question.

Ia-bowman

Sounds like you have a pretty good plan in place. I would let the spikes continue to develope. Your dominant bucks in the area are not going to let them breed much anyway.

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TxCowboy

Here is my 2 cents. I hunt deep in the Piney Woods of East Tx. We have almost 1,000 acres and out neighbor does too. We have been managing this land for the last 6-7yrs. We have alot of bucks in the 130 class range and one was killed a couple years ago that scrored over 150. That is huge for our area. Anyway, an average 1.5 yr old buck on our land is either a 6pt or some are even small 8pts. Rarely is a yearling buck under 6pts. That being said we have made it a rule to shoot every spike,3pt and 4pt that does not have a heavy rack. The reason is that we have tons of 6pt and bigger yearlings. Any buck 2.5 yrs old or older that doesn't have atleast 6pts is a cull in our management plan. In our woods, these smallers bucks are inferior. However, I will not say that these spikes will never grow up to be big bucks, that is possible but less likely. They already have alot of catching up to do.

In many places where the buck/doe ratio is very badly out of porportion, killing spikes might not be a good idea until you get your doe numbers down.

So after all of that, it just depends on your area and the quailty of your deer herd. It is amazing what setting some quality standards and shooting does, and passing up young bucks will do for a herd. The results will be amazing. Good luck and keep up the QDM!!

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Hunting the Piney Woods of Deep East Texas.

IndyHunter

There was a big debate on this very topic over the summer. The problem is that so many "experts" from both sides do their research and come up with conflicting results. One article will say it's okay to take them out, the next article will say the opposite. Spend a while doing searches on the internet for the topic and you will see what I mean. One big problem with much of the research is that it is done on managed game farms which generally does not reflect the overall genetics of free-ranging private and public lands. The one thing that the articles did agree on, is that there is no amount of nutrition that will make a "scrub" buck into a monster buck. They have to contain the genetics first, and the nutrition is what can help them reach their potential. No doubt some spikes can grow up to be trophies, and others will not. Do you guys keep records on paper of the deer you see? Some accurate records over a couple year period may help your decision, and maybe put in a call to the DNR whitetail biologist with your findings. They might be able to give you a better idea on what is normal or abnormal for you area. A few spikes here and there probably isn't a cause for concern, but an unusually high number of them might be. If that county park you are talking about is like the state parks here in Indiana, then the deer use those as a safe haven. The pictures of the deer that came from the parks before they were hunted, and the pictures you see now (a few years later) are quite different. Before, the deer were skinny and most were small or odd looking racks. After a few years of hunting the herd in that area finally started looking normal. Could be a similar situation in your area if there are an unusually high number of scrubby looking bucks. I don't have an answer for you, just thinking through my keyboard.

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BOWFANATIC

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote<font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
Genetics are too difficult to do much about and technically don't affect your property anyway as fawns born to &quot;your&quot; does will disperse off your property.
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According to a study that someone posted here awhile back , if you shoot the adult does , the young bucks will hang around.
The study showed that adult does will run off the button bucks once they reach a certain age to prevent inbreeding. The same study showed that a huge percentage of those button bucks stayed in the same area when the adult does were killed. Now , I know we need to have a balanced herd , but by shooting the adult does to keep more bucks in the area , wouldn't this cause inbreeding? Maybe the big number of basket racks in his area are a result of inbreeding<img src=icon_smile_question.gif border=0 align=middle> Does this mean we need to be more selective in our doe harvest? Harvesting the 1 1/2 year old does and letting the old mature does do natures thing to prevent inbreeding?

schmalts

dbl-lung, heres the scoop. You cannot judge a bucks potential the first year it has horns unless you have a real close buck/doe ratio. heres why; In a poor buck/doe ratio area adult does do not usually let the young bucks breed them, instead they will wait until her next cycle and thats 28 days. this will go on for 3 months possibly if there is a lack of mature bucks. Those does that get bred in Jan. instead of oct or nov will have a fawn later in the spring. Now you need to consider the fact that a 1 1/2 year old buck is putting a lot of nutrition into growing, not antler developing so a buck thats 3 months younger will not have a 8 pt rack the first year like the bucks that were born early in the spring. by the time they are 2 1/2 yrs old they kind of catch up as far as body and antler size because the percentage of age difference from the 3 mo older buck gets smaller each year. So based on this you should not shoot spikes, unless he seems unusually huge, and may be an actual 2 1/2 yr old or older crap buck. Yes sometimes a spike means its a poor genetic buck but studies shows that it is usually because he is a few months older than the 6 or 8 pt 1 1/2 year old buck. Lets put it this way, look at the difference in nubbin buck nubs are because of a couple months!
The other comment that made me cringe was the 6pt, or even 8pt rule. If you are shooting 1 1/2 or 2 1/2 old 8 pts then for sure you are killing your best stock of bigger bucks for seasons to come and possibly damaging your genetics in your area. You need to get educated about what a mature buck should look like in your geographic area, and face the fact that you may loose a few shots at deer because you didnt have enough time to check him over good enough to shoot.
The 6pt rule is not QDM and is not reconized as one of their policies to follow. One other thing to consider is to shoot does to get a better buck/doe ratio. This will help all the does to get bred early in the season resulting in a older fawn come the first winter, and thats important in the north.
Having a closer B/D ratio make sthe hunting better too, you will see FAR MORE buck activity due to competition. you will see less total deer but who cares if every other deer is a buck!

schmalts

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote<font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
Genetics are too difficult to do much about and technically don't affect your property anyway as fawns born to &quot;your&quot; does will disperse off your property.
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>

, wouldn't this cause inbreeding? Maybe the big number of basket racks in his area are a result of inbreeding<img src=icon_smile_question.gif border=0 align=middle> Does this mean we need to be more selective in our doe harvest? Harvesting the 1 1/2 year old does and letting the old mature does do natures thing to prevent inbreeding?
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote> when you shoot a doe you just kept the interbreeding from happening by removing her. Unlike humans, deer only need to be one generation out to keep from interbreeding. Breeding with your aunt or cousin is fine in the deer world. so orphan those button bucks and dont feel bad about it.

BOWFANATIC

I dont see how you eliminate inbreeding by shooting any doe<img src=icon_smile_question.gif border=0 align=middle> The mature doe runs the button bucks off to prevent inbreeding. Shoot the mature doe and the button buck stays in the area and breeds with siblings.

<---Doug---<<<