jethropew

Well I look at it this way. Our state departments of wildlife and fish have sensible members within their ranks. They decide what is considered legal for taking game within the state. They take into account ethics and game management. I'm quite sure they are looking out for the best interests of the wildlife within the state. The terrain and how game is best persued is left up to their capable hands. I like to think that they are not influenced by any one religion or the special interests of any particular group of people. Hunting wasa way of like in the beginning and it continues today. Good sportsman respect game and isn't that what we are all supporting good sportsman.Sure we allhold ourselves to different standards and that is to be commended, but consider that there are standards that our government creates to be fair to all sportsman. So as long as a hunter or fisherman is operating within these standards he or she should be commended and accepted as a fellow hunter/fisherman.
Dogs if it is legal sure, bait if it is legal sure, crossbows if their legal sure because if they are within the law then more power to them! and Those anti-hunter groups have no right to interfere with law abiding citizens who are doing their part for wildlife conservation and enjoyment!!

Rack-attack

Sorry...........

Still don't like cross-bows

Abuelo

Since my earliest memories of the hunt, I was taught that hunting is about values and ethics. Dad never got mad if I didn't get a deer. But he tanned my hide if Iviolated the values of the hunt, whetheron the mountain or in town. Now Dad's gone and I'm a grown man, but I'm not going to give up thosevalues, and I'm sure not going to do itfor the sake of politics. That's not to say that I won't keep an open mind, either.We're never too old to learn something.

Values and ethics are quickly disappearing from the hunt. Foremost among those values is respect - respect for the land, respect for wildlife, respect for yourself,respect for people.Lack of respect indiscussions between huntersis what's harmful. Simply accepting any and all"hunting" practices is, to me, unethical. Sorry.

NEW61375

Wow, I didn't expect this thread to go this direction but I guess I'm not really that surprised. Bowbuilder, first I am from Va and unfortunately I understand the problems with dog hunting that you speak of. However, I know several dog drivers that behave exactly opposite of how you described. They are aware that they are in the public eye and genuinely care about their dogs and presenting a positive image. In any activity you can think of,people break rules, laws, etc. You do not punish everyone for the illegal actions of a small group. I personally know that if your local wardenis not controlling his area and enough people contact the VA DGIF they will address the problems. It might take a couple of seasons to start getting their point across (tickets, fines) but they will respond. I know you brought dog hunting up because it is very visible to you, let me ask you this, do you think they are the only ones breaking hunting laws??
Second, I see your point about the WHA. Someone did organize it and start it so I guess that group of people sees it as hunting but it is only hunting in the dictionary definition sense of the word (to pursue game). If you look at it that simply you could stretch or morph hunting into anything you wanted but I feel most people on this site know that hunting is much more than that. Abuelo you are absolutely correct. Values, respect, morals, and ethics are things of the past. Not just in hunting but in society. This post was not meant to say support all hunting or things you don't believe in. I had hoped it would cause some soul searching. If you don't like certain kinds of hunting,it's easy , don't participate. Mentor someone new in the methods you believe focusing more on values, respect,morals, ethics, and things of that nature. Focus more on principles rather than methods. However, I still feel you should respect other hunters even if you dont' agree with their methods(as long as their methods are legal and approved by your local Game Dept.) It's easy to tear someone or something down but don't we have enough other people/organizations trying to do that for us? That's all for me I just thought the article was good and brought to light some good points.

MA Jay

New, thanks for posting the thread and link to the article.

I have to admit that as a hunter I do not fall in lock step with all issues and organizations related to hunting. I have had my own mentors, experiences and opinions that guide my actions and support. I do not support combining archery and crossbow seasons as 1 "archery season", but do support crossbows as a legal hunting weapon. That stance has me squarely against other hunters. I personally do not support fenced game killing, but that stance also has me squarely against fellow hunters. I often stand up against the few "radical" QDM people I know who push their own viewson what consitutues harvestable animals on othersto aggressively; and this also has me occasionaly squarely against other hunters.

You makea very valid point concerning hunters who feel that their sports longevity is important should be active in recruiting and setting high standards. If one were to not feel the same way as you, that is alright to. Sometimes it is fine for a guy to be "just a hunter" and not be a political activist, member or lobbyist. As long as ahunter follows the rules and laws, isn't italright for some to just "support" hunting by buying a license and go about it legally and ethically? As a "hunter" I get buried in junk mail and announcements that without my support "and oddly MONEY is always a part of it" hunting as we know it is going to end. I personally don't think so. It may change, but then again it has since my Dad started and even since I have. The future isn't all that bleak if you ask me.

One last point, for those guys who think that "pirates" within the hunting ranks are a strictly new thing, (like the bad dog club mentioned earlier) I beg to differ. They have been around as long as hunting had rules and any guy who doesn't know of old time deer camps where "camp meat" was never tagged and reported hasn't been around all that long. Some of the worst I have known ofare long gone themselves now.

quiksilver

I'm with MA Jay on this one. The "sky is falling" hysteria that I see amongst the ranks is meritless, and I think the article is way off base. Okay, maybe over the past twenty years, we've dwindled from 16.5 Million to 15 Million domestically - attribute that to what you want, but the baby boomers are getting old, and IMO, that's just the natural progression of things. I don't think it has much to do with PETA, politics, church, religion, or infighting among sportsmen.

People have always whined and complained, and there have always been groups who oppose what we do. Nothing new. The only real truth about hunting is that it never really changes. You always have your guys who insist that deer are becoming extinct - others who detest bows - guys who cry about rifle hunters - and so on... That's why most of us like it - because it never changes. You always go back to your roots. It's the same thing every year, with new deer, new stomping grounds, new equipment, but the same old ballgame.

Call me nuts, but I don't see the crisis that the author sees. This guy is acting like we should be lined up at the doors of the elementary school, drafting 12-year-olds to take uphunting to "save our sport." I have news: Our sport doesn't need saved. Just look around - there are more sport shops in my town than there have ever been. Hunting now has its own TV channel. Archery has absolutely exploded over the past 20 years. Non-resident licensing revenues are at record levels. Licensing revenues at large are higher than ever. Cabelas is nearing Fortune-500 status.

Y'all are just getting whipped up into a tizzy over nothing. Nobody is coming to take your guns away. Nobody is gonna ban hunting in all 50 states. The Bogey man isn't coming to take your broadheads. The game lands will be open for business next year. The IRS isn't coming to re-po your deerheads.

I just get sick of constantly hearing all this whining about how hunting is in danger, we need to get more people into it... blah blah blah. Get a grip.

NEW61375

Those are good points and I don't think the sky is falling. Often I work myself into a tizzy over nothing. As I stated earlier there are a lot of anti organizations and even though they usualy pose little to no threat they are still there. They are starting to join together in some cases to boost resources and that is disturbing to me because money talks. They are not trying to ban hunting in 50 states, they like to single out certain lands, hunts, or small areas to get a precedent established. I am not an activist, I don't contribute money to any groups or lobbyists. I simply try to introduce new people to our sport andthink we as hunters need to stay on our toes and hopefully if we ever need todefend ourselves against any real threat to hunting we will be able to support one another despite differences. It is certainly O.K. to be just a hunter but I also want my great grandkids kids to have that option as well. But that is just my opinion and it is open to comment and subject to change.

awshucks

Some good points have been made, and a friend provided me with the following which came from a Quail Unlimited site. I guess whether the sky is falling or not depends on where you are standing.[*]Anti-hunting activists almost halted this year's dove, duck and goose seasons in at least six states and did halt a dove season in Michigan up until this year. Thanks to funding from our last campaign, we were able to work with other wildlife groups involved to beat the anti-hunters at their own game in this state. However, they don't intend to give up![*]Anti-hunters closed down the mountain lion season in California and now are working in Arizona. They have stated that they plan to do the same for bear and deer hunting throughout the country.[*]Quail Unlimited has been informed that we can expect the same tactics that closed dove season, mountain lion season and other hunting seasons to be used to close quail seasons in a number of states within the next three years, and they will do it unless we come up with the money to stop them.[*]As you read this, anti-hunters are attempting to halt bear hunting in Michigan, Idaho and New Jersey.[*]Anti's have attempted to halt the transplanting of ruffed grouse in Colorado; now they are on an anti-meat campaign.[*]Animal rights activists have sabotaged numerous medical research labs that were seeking cures for cancer, AIDS, SIDS and drug/alcohol dependency and have caused damage well into the millions. Some medical researchers say that their efforts have been set back 10 years or more.[*]One of the largest anti-hunting groups has proposed an actual ban on the specific breeding of dogs and cats (consider what that type of legislation would do to maintaining bird dog lines, field trialing, etc.).[*]Some animal rights groups are even proposing that all cattle, poultry and farm animals be "released from captivity" immediately. These same groups are calling for a ban on any and all uses of animals for food, clothing, hunting, fishing and trapping.[*]A proposed ban on lead shot for upland hunting (including quail) appeared in a recent issue of the Federal Register. This is backed by anti-hunting groups.[*]The anti-hunting group, Fund for Animals, has launched a national campaign to stop state-sponsored youth hunter training courses.

aeroslinger

I somewhat tend to agree with 'quiksilver'. Yes, the anti's are a pain in the patoot and always will be but there is way too much money from hunting that support our parks and wildlife, not to mention the multi-billion dollar hunting related item businesses. I have the right to disagree with my fellow hunter just as much as we both have the right to hunt. It's kind of like you can fight with your brother but anybody who jumps on him better be ready for you, too. No, I don't particularly feel like I have to always smile at every kind of hunting or hunter and do a group hug just because some freak may think theres a chink in the armor and will be able to take away my hunting privelages. IMO, the more dangerous thing facing todays hunter is hunting opportunities. Land and affordable land is damaging our sport more than anything. Our jobs seem more demanding, prices of just about everything is going up while wages don't seem to keep up with the pace. Public land is scarce and overcrowded. Private land is getting high fenced and leased out at staggering prices. Or its leased up with most of the surrounding properties by 'outfitters' who charge an arm and a leg for day or weekend 'guided' hunts, which means they will take you to where the deer are and tell yo which deer you can take for what you paid. Its getting tougher to teach the kids to hunt when you can't find a place to take them. I know several guys who've pretty much given up hunting for these reason. Too busy at work, leases out of control, etc. I don't know one who's given up because of the anti's . I think some of us are so focused on a non-issue that we're not seeing the real 'enemy'. We can fight the anti's till the cows come home but what is being done to expand hunting opportunities? I sure haven't heard of anything being done. How about subsidising landowners to lease out their land at a capped price? Opening up more public land? If high-fence operations are going to use the deer, which belong to the state, to profit from, then pass to legislation to require them to allow some public hunting along with paid hunts. Or require them to have their land certified as native species free after the high fence goes up. Then they would have to import their stock and everyone would no exactly what they were getting - fabricated animals. I don't know the answers but I see a problem that doesn't look like its going to get better. I used to play a lot of golf but after 3 kids found I didn't really have the time or money to enjoy the game like I used to. If I've got some free time, anymore, I'd just as soon spend it in the country. But the way things are headed I can see hunting ending up like golf. Not enough time and too much money. Well, that may not be all of the things I think but some. Oh, did I mention I love all you guys?

NEW61375

Some good points by all.Anti's are a pain the "patoot" more than a real threat most of the time. But as awshucks post shows they do succeed at small levels in some areas. Even though it does not personally affect me or my hunting it is still anattack on meand my beliefs. These groups single out areas/huntsuse their occasional victories to promote and support further attempts to stop hunting or establish some kind of precedent. I'm sure there is more info like the info provided from the Quail Unlimited site and if anyone knows any links I would appreciate having them just so I had a better feel for some of the things these anti organizations were trying,even ifjust for my own personal knowledge. I feel any victory for these organizations is 1 too many but I also know that until it really affectsan individualpersonally most aren't too pro-active, myself included. But one small area could turn into one small county then just one state etc., etc., etc. I know it's unlikely but only time will tell. I guess all we can do is try to stay on our toes and do what we can when we can or as necessary.