Dr Andy

I doubt if anyone will ban hunting anytime soon. It's nesessary for maintaining steady predator /prey ratios. Without it the countryside would be overrun with whitetails eating everything in sight. Farmers would be applying for crop damage losses and this would cost the ins. too much. Sterilization with darts even if successful would require too much personel to accomplish nationwideand the loss of revenue to the DNR and local businesses would be too much. It's all about the money and the anti's won't pony up the $$$$ to make it better. Just my opinion.

NEW61375

YES

live2hunt009

I havent heard anything about Realtree yet so i just sent them an email asking them about there thoughts on this. I will keep you guys posted on what they say. I cant imagine in a thousand years realtree supporting this.

TxStarr

Let me start with a warning and an apology about the length of this post ... my husband would say he could have warned you about my wordiness a long time ago. I am going to attempt to be calm and logical but this whole idea hits a hot spot within me and makes it difficult. I think it does that with every hunter and that is the reason you are not getting the "logical" responses you claim you want. There is just something inherently wrong about this whole idea that it is difficult to see something other than red when the subject comes up.

I understand there are people out there who are opposed to killing an animal. I personally don't agree with killing just to kill. My husband and I hunt and eat what we kill -- as do all of our friends who hunt. That is one reason. Another reason is the friendships we have with other hunters and the experiences we can share together. I know, I know, the people who are hunting in the WHA can also have the friendship and experiences.


Here goes:

1. I realize there will be vets there and they will be monitering the drugging and checking the animals health and age. That still does not make it right. It seems to be cruel and inhumane to subject an animal to this over and over (because we know if it is a large buck they will all want it again and again) -- unless there is limit to the number of times an animal can be 'shot'. And I can hear you jumping up and down yelling "And killing the animal is not cruel and inhumane?!?!" Everybody I know practices and practices and practices and practices so that their aim is accurate and the animal does not suffer a needless, prolonged death. I remember how I felt when I came out of surgery and cannot imagine inflicting this on an animal ... who will not know why it was done and not understand why it feels the way it feels. It just seems to be demeaning to the animal. And people who do this on a regular basis to attach radio collars and track animals do not do it for money on TV. They do it for the benefit of the animal and to learn more about the animal. Repeat: not in it for the money.

2. Does birth control work? For it to work you would have to administer it to every female in an area. Hmmm ... see that happening? And is the birth control 100% effective? I know mine is only 90 something percent effective. And if you want to use birth control just think of all the possible other problems that could cause. Kinda like a throwing a small stone in a pond and the ripples it causes.

3. Who is saying that people who are against hunting will be in favor of this? Just because it is a 'catch and release' deosn't mean the anti-hunters will be for it. It just means they will see another reason to attack hunting and people who hunt. And, mentioning money --

4. HUNTING IS NOT ABOUT THE MONEY. Just because there are people out there who make money to hunt doesn't mean they are there for the money. These are people who were hunting to begin with. These are people who would hunt to this day even if they were working as a construction worker, lawyer, banker, bartender, truck driver, pilot, etc. They just got lucky enough to get picked out of the group to hunt wonderful places and get paid to do it. Who among us wouldn't love to be paid to do what we love? Hunting is a way of life. It is how you live your life. It instills in you a sense of awe and reverence for life and respect for the animal(s) you are hunting. 'Just darting them for money' -- where is the respect and awe and reverence in that? And the people who get money for their world records and the replicas, etc ... they were not getting paid to hunt when they took the animal were they?

5. Let's not forget that that 'dart' has drugs in it. How can drugging an animal not look bad? And can you really call it hunting if the only thing you will get out of it is money?

If anti-hunters are opposed to the killing aspect ... let them give up eating all meat. Seriously. If you are opposed to someone killing an animal that they (or someone else) are going to eat then you should not be hypocritical. This means eating no meat -- none. Period. Just because we would also like a nice set of antlers with our meat doesn't overshadow the basic reasons for hunting.

Basically, hunters see this is a moral and ethical issue and they also see it is another reason for people who oppose hunting to criticize what we love. If we can stop it before it gets started then that is one less attack we have to contend with.

Just my opinion in a non-name calling post. You've got to stand for something or you will fall for anything and this is where I am making my stand. This is wrong on all fronts. Whether you agree with me or not does not change that.

Shannon

Dr Andy

Very well put Shannon. Thanks

Iowa Monsterbuck

The surprising thing is that this isn't really a brand new idea.

If you go to the website for Bullseye Outfitters (an outfitter used by Ralph and Vicki of the Archer's Choice and some of the other popular pro hunters) you'll see that they offer a 5 day traquilizer dart rhino hunt for $6,900.

http://www.bullseyeoutfitters.com/africa_hunts.html

This hunt has even been featured on American Archer on the Outdoor Channel recently. Yet I havn't heard a big backlash against it.

Bullhound

Ban me if you must mods, but Bowsmacker, you make me sick. Sorry, does that fall under an emotional response? I have to wonder about my sanity, if I can actually read through the garbage you post. [:'(]

Davoh

All this hoopla and hollerin by us guys and leave it to the lady to make sense of it.... Well Said...

Look at it like this.... You take a bunch of ethically questionable practices and combine them under the premice of competing for money, and you get one big pile of whohaa...

TxStarr

Actually, the description on that site for the dart hunt is:

South Africa Rhino Dart Hunt:
5 Days, Fully Guided. Includes All Veterinary & Taxidermy Equipment, Accommodations & Meals.
$6,900.00

I am assuming that since they offer taxidermy service with this hunt that means that you are harvesting an animal and not simply knocking it out? That makes it hunting with a dart ... a traditional method of hunting in Africa and other countries (although they blew the poisoned darts out of a reed and this did not say how the dart was to be administered). Nowhere did I see the word tranqualizer. Did I miss something else on the page?

Shannon

Iowa Monsterbuck

'Green hunting' the Big Five

18 July 2005
Hunters and conservationists are now on the same side of the fence. Pioneered in South Africa, "green hunting" is fast winning the favour of traditional hunters, who see it as a chance to enjoy their sport while contributing to conservation.
Green hunting - or dart safaris - offer a unique synergy between sport hunting and conservation, allowing trophy wildlife to be shot and wildlife research and management to be conducted at the same time.
The brainchild of Dr Paul Bartels, head of the Wildlife Biological Resource Centre of the National Zoological Gardens, green hunting requires more skill and precision than hunting with a rifle. Not only must the animal be shot from close range, but darted animals are also highly unpredictable - sometimes charging or bolting.
Code of ethics
Importantly, animals are only earmarked for darting for specific scientific or research purposes, never for commercial reasons alone.
Purposes can include the translocation of animals to a new environment, ear notching or fitting microchips for identification, blood and tissue collection, radio collaring for tracking animal movement, and operating or treating wounds.
White rhino are most frequently darted, but lion, elephant, buffalo and leopard are also regularly hunted. Black rhino are not yet open to darting.
Most green hunters are traditionalists who now see darting as a new challenge and a chance to do more for conservation. Green safaris are available to both individual clients and groups.
Careful planning is done before each dart safari, taking note of the species, terrain and time of year. They are done early in the morning, when it's cooler for animals.
"At the end of the day," says Bartels, "we want the animal to jump up and run into the sunset, with the hunter having experienced the thrill of the hunt while also having played an important role in conservation.
"So from an ethics point of view, it's important that the hunter has the same goals."
Before the actual hunt, clients practise with the dart gun until they are proficient and confident, because the dynamics of the gun are somewhat different to those of a traditional rifle.
Darts are heavier than bullets, so the hunter has to be very close to the animal before firing, while anticipating where and how the dart is going to fly. It's something of a combination of archery and shooting.
Green hunters can also dart rhino using a bow - with the dart attached to the end of an arrow. For this, client hunters are sent the dart a few weeks before the hunt, and use water instead of the immobilisation drug to practise shooting. The type of bow to be used is also stipulated, so that the dart injects the drug and the arrow falls off the animal.
On the hunt
In the cool of early morning, trackers locate the animal to be darted. The decision to dart or not is then finally taken, based on the ambient temperature, terrain and safety of all concerned.
If the hunt is on, the vet fires the dart in a group dart safari, or in an individual safari the client and professional hunter stalk the animal on foot to get as close as possible.
After the dart is fired by the client, the vet mobilises the rest of the ground team and everyone waits quietly for the animal to go down. This can take from three to 15 minutes, and if the animal bolts a helicopter tracks it until it drops.
The immobilised animal's ears and eyes are covered to reduce the stress of external stimuli. If necessary, the animal is moved into a safe resting position where it can breathe freely.
Then the vet takes tissue, blood and hair samples for genetic and disease studies, while constantly monitoring the animal's health. Sometimes radio collars are fitted or, in the case of rhino, horns are microchipped or ears notched for identification purposes.
At the same time, the professional hunter takes the required trophy measurements and photographs for the client, as Safari Club International accepts darted animals for entry into their record book and hunting competitions.
Immobilisation drugs and antidotes
When all procedures and measurements are done, equipment and people are moved to safety and the vet injects the antidote to reverse the effect of the immobilisation drug.
Different immobilisation drugs are used for different species. Elephant, antelope and rhino make a quick and complete recovery, sometimes within 30 seconds. But for cat species there isn't a complete antidote. The drug has to leave their system for complete recovery, so cats are guarded for 24 hours until fully awake and aware.
In an individual hunt the client pulls the trigger him- or herself, a professional hunter and a game capture vet must be in attendance, and the hunt has to be booked and organised through a registered hunting outfitter, just as for a trophy hunt.
The outfitter has to acquire the darting rights to the animal before it's marketed, and must have in place an experienced and professional team to carry out the hunt. Sometimes a commercial game capture helicopter pilot is also required.
The client hunter must have had training and practice in the use of the dart gun, and must be briefed on all aspects of the darting safari and the course of events - the safety of both people and animals is paramount.
Team building and training
Group dart safaris are for team building and training, and for nature lovers who want to help with conservation research. Here the vet fires the dart into an animal that needs to be ear-notched, medicated or moved and so trophy quality is not a consideration. Those in the group are there purely to witness the event and give assistance where necessary. Each group safari has a ranger in charge, and there's also usually a photo opportunity to record the event.
Bartels says a downside of dart safaris is that you can't just "pick up a gun and go hunting". There is more planning, many people and precise coordination needed for a dart safari.
Still, it's growing in popularity among conservation-conscious hunters, who now green-hunt in KwaZulu-Natal, Gauteng and North West province.
According to Bartels, there was initially a negative reaction from the traditional hunting community, but they have since seen that there is a place for dart safaris and that nothing is taken away from professional hunters, as one is always required to be present at individual client dart safaris.
Along with hunting associations, the South African Veterinary Society also ensures strict ethics and controls on dart safaris to ensure the well being of wildlife at all times.
Source: South African Tourism