RE: WHA Question
 

That is an ignorant statement to make. Obviously you have the wrong idea about things around here. As a member who happens to be a moderator I speak my own mind on issues such as this. HNI administration has never told us how to think! Perhaps the overwhelming majority on all of the legitimate hunting websites are against WHA and its concept because basically we all agree.

Bowsmacker, its nearly obvious you have some sort of association with the WHA, or perhaps are even being considered as a "contestant".

RE: WHA Question
 

This just in from the Quality Deer Management Association:

http://www.qdma.com/pdf/QDMA_Opposes_WHA.pdf

Add another to the LONG list.

RE: WHA Question
 

That speaks volumes, I'm glad to see more and more hunting related organizations, sportmen and women, industry leaders and more come out and oppose the WHA....I'd imagine in time anyone associated with the WHA will be terminated/black eyed by the industry in a whole.

RE: WHA Question
 

Im glad you speak your own mind but what i stated is true and is certainly a factor. Take for example the Mike Hanback article that sat on the cover of Huntingnet for a month while his own blog was loaded with both sides. Those views never seemed to make it to the cover of Huntingnet or any article for that matter.

This thread is a prime example of what happens to people that ask honest questions and give honest opinions. Windwalker was shunned away and told to get out (Check post #6)...

I can take punches so I throw facts at people and they come up with the same statement "You must be with the WHA" "or you are a PETA plant"....This only encourages me to make people look silly that have no FACTS.I should be a contestant because I wouldthrow tennis balls atdeerfor that money, and that too would be hunting becauseyou would have to get damn close and be damnaccurate.

How come nobody on here wants to argue with facts but instead only assumptions?

HNI Admin doesnt have to tell you how to think. You work for HNI so you understand where you need to stand to keep your job...or membership, since mine is currently on thin ice for voicing my opinion.

"The human mind prefers to be spoon-fed with the thoughts of others, but deprived of such nourishment it will, reluctantly, begin to think for itself -- and such thinking, remember, is original thinking and may have valuable results." - Agatha Christie

RE: WHA Question
 

Wow... at this point the only thing I can say about bowsmacker is he should be working in D.C.... he really knows how to spin....

The liberals call me a neo-con crony,PETA calls me a murderer, and bowsmacker calls me a moron, and an attacker.... man, nobody likes me anymore.... [:-]

RE: WHA Question
 

My thoughts exactly Cougar!!!

Bowsmacker, what is your affiliation with WHA, current or planned?
We are honest in who we are and in our stance - lets hear who you are!Every one of your 19 brand new posts insult everything we stand for - from American Made automobiles to our hunting traditions and values.

Most newbies start with an introduction not an argument!
You are obviously either a plant, someone's online altered ego, affiliated with WHA somehow, or are posting here only to invite attention from WHA. I suspect that is a combination of 3 of the above.

As far as competition with Huntingnet - that is total B.S. Do you know how many links, discussions,and stories are carried over or postedhere from "competitor's" websites? We discuss them all the time.

Personally, I would have banned you after your 3rd or 4th post - show some respect.

RE: WHA Question
 

Couldn't have said it any better. I consider hunting as sacred and a humbling experience. It's amazing what some folks will do for a $.

RE: WHA Question
 

Pope and Young and Boone and Crockett have also come out strongly opposing the WHA.So seemingly it is just not us unqualified over opinionated huntingnetter's who are unaware and ill informed.:DThe very cream of the crop hunting record keeping organizations are also unqualified to speak on this issue.(not)
The WHA is a terrible idea whose time will never come!!!

RE: WHA Question
 

The oppositionlist is pretty impressive, and growing:

80% averageof all Hunters and Sportsmen, in many polls.

And also:

Quality Deer Management Association
Pope and Young
Safari Club International
Boone and Crockett
North American Bowhunter Coalition
Untied States Sportsman's Alliance
National Field Archery Association
National Shooting Sports Foundation
Alberta Bowhunters Association
Montana Bowhunters Association
Millenium Tree Stands
Summit Tree Stands
Cabelas
Bass Pro Shops
Women's Hunters, Inc.
Martin Archery
Mathews Inc.
Merlin USA
Newberry Bows
Ross Archery
Eastman Outdoors
G5
Pneu-Dart
Xtreme Scents
Muzzy
Natural Gear
Pinwheel Products
Bowhunt America
Wild TV
Whitetail Fanatic Magazine
Outdoor Life Magazine
New York Post
Detroit Free Press
Archerytalk.com

And altho we haven't gotten official statements and thus cannot post them, we are assuming most of the other hunting websites are onboard too. If anyone has any further postings to add, please post them so we all know who istaking a stand. Thanks.I personallywill only buy from those who will stand against the WHA from now on too. Really, it is that important IMHO, and my businesses will only carry products from those who back the hunting community.

There are many news reports in oppositiontoo, in many newspapers all across the country:

http://www.greenbaypressgazette.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060625/GPG07/606250589/1233/GPGsports
http://www.altoonamirror.com/Sports/articles.asp?articleID=2726
http://www.poughkeepsiejournal.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060622/COLUMNISTS09/606220306
http://washingtontimes.com/sports/20060621-121335-3440r.htm
http://www.pressconnects.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060620/COLUMNISTS16/606200334/1003/
http://www.clarionledger.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060618/SPORTS08/606180369/1127
http://www.signonsandiego.com/sports/outdoors/20060617-9999-lz1s17weighin.html
http://www.columbian.com/sports/localNews/06152006news36146.cfm
http://msnbc.msn.com/id/13529124/site/newsweek/
http://fredericksburg.com/News/FLS/2006/062006/06152006/199218
http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercurynews/sports/14815229.htm



But it still isn't enough. Rather than continuing thebanter back and forth with the "plants" and otherpaid henchmen, the best thing to do is to approach more manufacturers and get them to join the majority who publicallyoppose this nonsense. Please e-mail any bow or accessory manufacturer that you do not see listed above, and ask fortheir OFFICIALposition on the issue. Both Polaris and Wal-Mart are sponsors of the WHAfrom what I understand,(unverified but supposedly)so we'll need to send e-mails to them and ask them their positionstoo.

RE: WHA Question
 

Kevin,
Although they haven't put an official statement as such ,I have had several discussions with the guys at Bowtech and they told me to feel free tostate publicly that they too have no intentions of supporting the WHA in any way up to and including sponsorships.
Feel free to add them to the list.

RE: WHA Question
 

Again, you guys have got to contact Pepto Bismol....they are making sick money off this venture. Literally. Im about to throw up right now.


Hurry call them and stop the madness!!!!!!!

RE: WHA Question
 

Matt/PA-

Thanks Matt. Please askJohn for an official statement if you would, cause if we do not have an official public announcement anyone can backpedal if they choose. Not saying they or anyone else would, but if they issue a statement as others have here on the list, then it'sprettysecure. Ask hunting.netalso please, seeing as you are a moderator--- it would be nice to get an official stance from everyone associated with the hunting community if we can so we know who's who in the zoo. Appreciate it!

RE: WHA Question
 

Whoa!!!! I just got home from work.

There are some things I've read that I question. I asked a few questions as to why people were so opposed to WHA in my original post. here is what I gather.

1.Animalsmay be injured or even killed in all this.Ok, first off my bow only shoots about 240fps and some of the paintball guns shoot much faster than this. I've been hit by quite a few paintballs. I'm sure the bows that are used in this won't be shooting anywhere near 300fps. I'm also sure these arespecially designed arrows also.Secondly, I thought the vetenarians that will be present were their to appese the anti/nonhunters to assure the deer was alright and they were to be present to gather information on that paticular deer's health and age. I believe they do something like this on all kinds of animals to attach radio collars and study their health.

I think this animal injury thing had alot of spin put on it, on here.

2. The antismay get weird ideas of using this dart system as a way to give birth control to deer. Yeah they might. I'm sure there are many areas in this country that the deer population is totally out of control.This may be an idea in places where deer can't be hunted safely.

3. The nonhunting public will not like this. I feel when the nonhunting public sees that a majority of hunters oppose this, it will confirm their beliefs, that hunters are blood thirsty killers and just want to KILL animals.

4. "True" hunters do not want these slobs to endanger their sport buy paying big money to competitors in the WHA. Look at the money payed to the holders of world record animals, especially deer. Endorsements, replicasof racks, shows, etc... I see alot of money going to those guys and none of you guys complain about that.

5. This makes hunting look bad. Does it? I feel people opposing this because they'd rather kill the deer makes hunters look bad. Yes, killing is part of hunting.That, in itself is why anti/nonhunters don't like hunting. So how you would think darting an animal will make hunting look worse, to the public, I don't understand.

As far as threatening to kick people off for namecalling, maybe you shoul reread some of the posts calling me Bunnyhugger,a Plant, a Slob, yeah I can take it. I haven't called any names yet. I just wanted to know why everyone was so irate about WHA. I fully expected to get ripped up one side and down the other and that's OK too.

Its all part of debating. Each person has their own views and sees what they want.

RE: WHA Question
 

Windwalker, I think you bring up valid questions although I do not agree with some of your points because I think you have to look at this subject as a whole, and not as unconnected pieces.

Personally, my main objection to the WHA is that they are trying to cash in on the televised harassment of wildlife and are trying to promote to the general public that that is acceptable. It is not!

When I lay hands on a deer I have shot and killed, I know that I have just taken a life. I've taken the lifeof one of God's most beautiful creatures and it makes me a tiny bit sad. I do not look forward to killing. That sadness inside us is what keeps us responsible, respectful,and ethical.
When you take the sadness away and turnhunting into a screaming high-five festand reward that behavior with cash, prizes, and fame then you are taking responsibility, respectfulness, andethics out of hunting.

How long will it take for the new members of our hunting community to start imitating this behavior on their own?
Government loves control and this would be just another reason for them totake a weapon away from the rest of us law abiding citizens.
No Sir, to repeat what Rob/PA Bowyer has often said, NOTHING GOOD can come from this.

RE: WHA Question
 

I had a long winded responce but the site shut down as I posted it.

"High five festing", fist pumping, whooping, thumbs uping, it all goes on right now. So does the rewarding. Look at guys who've bagged record deer. They get endorsement contracts, royalities from the sell of paintings, tee shirts, rack replicas, etc.. ., that show their record book deer.

Haven't we all dreamed of bagging the next world record? Or our next state's record? WHY? For the fame? The endorsements? Why do hunters dream of that? I don't see much difference in what WHA is doing in that respect. Don't hunters get rewards for bagging the largest buck? Who here has never entered a buck pool? Who of us has?


So what are the weight limits on the bows used in this contest? What do the tranqulized arrows look like? Do they look like regular arrows? Where is the shot placement on the animals? ( I'd think maybe the hind quarter for the dart) Exactly how big of an enclosure are we talking about? How many deer inside?

DOES ANYONE KNOW?




[hr]

RE: WHA Question
 

Before I decide one way or the other, I'd like a little more info. I see a few things getting spun out of control, on here, that we don't have real answers to. You can go ahead and make your decision now, if you want, I just want to know more factsabout it.

RE: WHA Question
 

As of this afternoon, Mossy Oak's Randy Russell has announced thatMossy Oak does not sponsor, orplan to sponsor or support the WHA in any way.

RE: WHA Question
 

Windwalker7, I agree. Why is everbody so irate?? Whoa, noone answer that, because it has been answered probably thousands of times already with tons of negative input. Now let me play the devils advocate here for a second. What could theWHA do to turn this around?? Could they change their format?? Lose the darts, fenced enclosures, what?? Could they set it up with hunters competing for big bucks and have like a big buck "Stanley Cup" with their name on it for that season? Competing for prizes like four wheelers, trucks, hunting equipment, trips, land, cash,bragging rights. Just for example, could you havelike Team Realtree vs Team Mossy Oak vs Team Buckmastervs Team Whoever? If they changed their format to something more along the lines of some of the other shows, dvd, hunting programs could they gain support? Lets be realistic, HUNTING IS ALREADY BEING COMMERCIALIZED! Just turn your T.V. to any of these "acceptable huntingprograms". They are not in fenced in enclosures but they are on "ranches" (where the hunting never seems to be like where I hunt) and they are definitely about Big Bucks (I mean deer but money too)and self promotion. It is very easy to rip something apart with criticism. It is not so easy to come up with constructive criticismor original ideas which might have the power to turn something negative into something positive. Let's try that.I have read over and over how happy everyone isabout banning together to destroy the WHA. Well lets all pat each other on the back, Great Job! Maybe we could ban together to come up with ideas on new hunter recruitment, take a kid hunting day, or anything to help our hunting future as a whole. Just a thought.

RE: WHA Question
 

The vets are on hand because they're using a controlled substance,i.e.the tranquilizer. These are potent veterinary anesthetics.

RE: WHA Question
 

There is a difference between commercialization within the industry to servethat specific audienceand perversion of a pastimeto reach an entirely different audience, who doesn't care anyways...

Its the american dream to make a living doing what you love to do... I wont argue that. What really sticks in my crawl though is the concept of drug and release of deer, for hundreds of thousands of dollars in cash. Add in the high-fence debate and you've got more than enough to argue against it.

It wouldalso helpif "Mr. Farbman" was at all involved in any conservation or hunting promotion prior to this endeavor. Having worked in the mortgage industrypreviously, I can tell you without hesitation that the type of person required to be sucessful in the commercial real estate business, is not the type of shark I want leading an organization of hunters. Thats not an assumption, and not an attack,thats an opinion based on my own past experience.

Had the WHA not decided to pander to the non-hunting/anti-hunting masses, and not gone with the "non-lethal" concept, I seriously doubt it would have caused a such a stirlike it has. But Farbman caved to political-correctness and decided to twist our beloved past-time into something its not. Which if you take that twisted, distorted version of hunting and present it to the public, they will think that the "unecessary" death of the animals is barbaric and should be outlawed. We as hunters are at the mercy of the non-hunting general public andpresenting to them of the fallable concept of darting being the more humane version of hunting, will ultimately lead to the inability of Joe A. Hunter to feed his family with venison. I'm already beginning to get the question asked of me bymy non-hunting in-laws... "why kill them, you could tranquelize them and still get the same thrill...." all because of this mess.

Why do the pro-WHA guys on here lack the foresight to see what's going to happen? I understand Farbman ignoring it, because all he stands to do is get rich, so who cares... but why are red-blooded american hunters actually supporting this scharade? Why would they sacrifice the future of hunting for "entertainment"?

Short and simple, the WHA is no good for hunters. It's good for farbman and his backers. Otherwise don't you think outdoor companies would be lining up to sponsor it?It wouldn't surprise me at all to see Walmart on the list of sponsors. They started selling America's soul long before the WHA was ever around, but that's another story for another time.

RE: WHA Question
 

I doubt if anyone will ban hunting anytime soon. It's nesessary for maintaining steady predator /prey ratios. Without it the countryside would be overrun with whitetails eating everything in sight. Farmers would be applying for crop damage losses and this would cost the ins. too much. Sterilization with darts even if successful would require too much personel to accomplish nationwideand the loss of revenue to the DNR and local businesses would be too much. It's all about the money and the anti's won't pony up the $$$$ to make it better. Just my opinion.

RE: WHA Question
 

YES

RE: WHA Question
 

I havent heard anything about Realtree yet so i just sent them an email asking them about there thoughts on this. I will keep you guys posted on what they say. I cant imagine in a thousand years realtree supporting this.

RE: WHA Question
 

Let me start with a warning and an apology about the length of this post ... my husband would say he could have warned you about my wordiness a long time ago. I am going to attempt to be calm and logical but this whole idea hits a hot spot within me and makes it difficult. I think it does that with every hunter and that is the reason you are not getting the "logical" responses you claim you want. There is just something inherently wrong about this whole idea that it is difficult to see something other than red when the subject comes up.

I understand there are people out there who are opposed to killing an animal. I personally don't agree with killing just to kill. My husband and I hunt and eat what we kill -- as do all of our friends who hunt. That is one reason. Another reason is the friendships we have with other hunters and the experiences we can share together. I know, I know, the people who are hunting in the WHA can also have the friendship and experiences.


Here goes:

1. I realize there will be vets there and they will be monitering the drugging and checking the animals health and age. That still does not make it right. It seems to be cruel and inhumane to subject an animal to this over and over (because we know if it is a large buck they will all want it again and again) -- unless there is limit to the number of times an animal can be 'shot'. And I can hear you jumping up and down yelling "And killing the animal is not cruel and inhumane?!?!" Everybody I know practices and practices and practices and practices so that their aim is accurate and the animal does not suffer a needless, prolonged death. I remember how I felt when I came out of surgery and cannot imagine inflicting this on an animal ... who will not know why it was done and not understand why it feels the way it feels. It just seems to be demeaning to the animal. And people who do this on a regular basis to attach radio collars and track animals do not do it for money on TV. They do it for the benefit of the animal and to learn more about the animal. Repeat: not in it for the money.

2. Does birth control work? For it to work you would have to administer it to every female in an area. Hmmm ... see that happening? And is the birth control 100% effective? I know mine is only 90 something percent effective. And if you want to use birth control just think of all the possible other problems that could cause. Kinda like a throwing a small stone in a pond and the ripples it causes.

3. Who is saying that people who are against hunting will be in favor of this? Just because it is a 'catch and release' deosn't mean the anti-hunters will be for it. It just means they will see another reason to attack hunting and people who hunt. And, mentioning money --

4. HUNTING IS NOT ABOUT THE MONEY. Just because there are people out there who make money to hunt doesn't mean they are there for the money. These are people who were hunting to begin with. These are people who would hunt to this day even if they were working as a construction worker, lawyer, banker, bartender, truck driver, pilot, etc. They just got lucky enough to get picked out of the group to hunt wonderful places and get paid to do it. Who among us wouldn't love to be paid to do what we love? Hunting is a way of life. It is how you live your life. It instills in you a sense of awe and reverence for life and respect for the animal(s) you are hunting. 'Just darting them for money' -- where is the respect and awe and reverence in that? And the people who get money for their world records and the replicas, etc ... they were not getting paid to hunt when they took the animal were they?

5. Let's not forget that that 'dart' has drugs in it. How can drugging an animal not look bad? And can you really call it hunting if the only thing you will get out of it is money?

If anti-hunters are opposed to the killing aspect ... let them give up eating all meat. Seriously. If you are opposed to someone killing an animal that they (or someone else) are going to eat then you should not be hypocritical. This means eating no meat -- none. Period. Just because we would also like a nice set of antlers with our meat doesn't overshadow the basic reasons for hunting.

Basically, hunters see this is a moral and ethical issue and they also see it is another reason for people who oppose hunting to criticize what we love. If we can stop it before it gets started then that is one less attack we have to contend with.

Just my opinion in a non-name calling post. You've got to stand for something or you will fall for anything and this is where I am making my stand. This is wrong on all fronts. Whether you agree with me or not does not change that.

Shannon

RE: WHA Question
 

Very well put Shannon. Thanks

RE: WHA Question
 

The surprising thing is that this isn't really a brand new idea.

If you go to the website for Bullseye Outfitters (an outfitter used by Ralph and Vicki of the Archer's Choice and some of the other popular pro hunters) you'll see that they offer a 5 day traquilizer dart rhino hunt for $6,900.

http://www.bullseyeoutfitters.com/africa_hunts.html

This hunt has even been featured on American Archer on the Outdoor Channel recently. Yet I havn't heard a big backlash against it.

RE: WHA Question
 

Ban me if you must mods, but Bowsmacker, you make me sick. Sorry, does that fall under an emotional response? I have to wonder about my sanity, if I can actually read through the garbage you post. [:'(]

RE: WHA Question
 

All this hoopla and hollerin by us guys and leave it to the lady to make sense of it.... Well Said...

Look at it like this.... You take a bunch of ethically questionable practices and combine them under the premice of competing for money, and you get one big pile of whohaa...

RE: WHA Question
 

Actually, the description on that site for the dart hunt is:

South Africa Rhino Dart Hunt:
5 Days, Fully Guided. Includes All Veterinary & Taxidermy Equipment, Accommodations & Meals.
$6,900.00

I am assuming that since they offer taxidermy service with this hunt that means that you are harvesting an animal and not simply knocking it out? That makes it hunting with a dart ... a traditional method of hunting in Africa and other countries (although they blew the poisoned darts out of a reed and this did not say how the dart was to be administered). Nowhere did I see the word tranqualizer. Did I miss something else on the page?

Shannon

RE: WHA Question
 

'Green hunting' the Big Five

18 July 2005
Hunters and conservationists are now on the same side of the fence. Pioneered in South Africa, "green hunting" is fast winning the favour of traditional hunters, who see it as a chance to enjoy their sport while contributing to conservation.
Green hunting - or dart safaris - offer a unique synergy between sport hunting and conservation, allowing trophy wildlife to be shot and wildlife research and management to be conducted at the same time.
The brainchild of Dr Paul Bartels, head of the Wildlife Biological Resource Centre of the National Zoological Gardens, green hunting requires more skill and precision than hunting with a rifle. Not only must the animal be shot from close range, but darted animals are also highly unpredictable - sometimes charging or bolting.
Code of ethics
Importantly, animals are only earmarked for darting for specific scientific or research purposes, never for commercial reasons alone.
Purposes can include the translocation of animals to a new environment, ear notching or fitting microchips for identification, blood and tissue collection, radio collaring for tracking animal movement, and operating or treating wounds.
White rhino are most frequently darted, but lion, elephant, buffalo and leopard are also regularly hunted. Black rhino are not yet open to darting.
Most green hunters are traditionalists who now see darting as a new challenge and a chance to do more for conservation. Green safaris are available to both individual clients and groups.
Careful planning is done before each dart safari, taking note of the species, terrain and time of year. They are done early in the morning, when it's cooler for animals.
"At the end of the day," says Bartels, "we want the animal to jump up and run into the sunset, with the hunter having experienced the thrill of the hunt while also having played an important role in conservation.
"So from an ethics point of view, it's important that the hunter has the same goals."
Before the actual hunt, clients practise with the dart gun until they are proficient and confident, because the dynamics of the gun are somewhat different to those of a traditional rifle.
Darts are heavier than bullets, so the hunter has to be very close to the animal before firing, while anticipating where and how the dart is going to fly. It's something of a combination of archery and shooting.
Green hunters can also dart rhino using a bow - with the dart attached to the end of an arrow. For this, client hunters are sent the dart a few weeks before the hunt, and use water instead of the immobilisation drug to practise shooting. The type of bow to be used is also stipulated, so that the dart injects the drug and the arrow falls off the animal.
On the hunt
In the cool of early morning, trackers locate the animal to be darted. The decision to dart or not is then finally taken, based on the ambient temperature, terrain and safety of all concerned.
If the hunt is on, the vet fires the dart in a group dart safari, or in an individual safari the client and professional hunter stalk the animal on foot to get as close as possible.
After the dart is fired by the client, the vet mobilises the rest of the ground team and everyone waits quietly for the animal to go down. This can take from three to 15 minutes, and if the animal bolts a helicopter tracks it until it drops.
The immobilised animal's ears and eyes are covered to reduce the stress of external stimuli. If necessary, the animal is moved into a safe resting position where it can breathe freely.
Then the vet takes tissue, blood and hair samples for genetic and disease studies, while constantly monitoring the animal's health. Sometimes radio collars are fitted or, in the case of rhino, horns are microchipped or ears notched for identification purposes.
At the same time, the professional hunter takes the required trophy measurements and photographs for the client, as Safari Club International accepts darted animals for entry into their record book and hunting competitions.
Immobilisation drugs and antidotes
When all procedures and measurements are done, equipment and people are moved to safety and the vet injects the antidote to reverse the effect of the immobilisation drug.
Different immobilisation drugs are used for different species. Elephant, antelope and rhino make a quick and complete recovery, sometimes within 30 seconds. But for cat species there isn't a complete antidote. The drug has to leave their system for complete recovery, so cats are guarded for 24 hours until fully awake and aware.
In an individual hunt the client pulls the trigger him- or herself, a professional hunter and a game capture vet must be in attendance, and the hunt has to be booked and organised through a registered hunting outfitter, just as for a trophy hunt.
The outfitter has to acquire the darting rights to the animal before it's marketed, and must have in place an experienced and professional team to carry out the hunt. Sometimes a commercial game capture helicopter pilot is also required.
The client hunter must have had training and practice in the use of the dart gun, and must be briefed on all aspects of the darting safari and the course of events - the safety of both people and animals is paramount.
Team building and training
Group dart safaris are for team building and training, and for nature lovers who want to help with conservation research. Here the vet fires the dart into an animal that needs to be ear-notched, medicated or moved and so trophy quality is not a consideration. Those in the group are there purely to witness the event and give assistance where necessary. Each group safari has a ranger in charge, and there's also usually a photo opportunity to record the event.
Bartels says a downside of dart safaris is that you can't just "pick up a gun and go hunting". There is more planning, many people and precise coordination needed for a dart safari.
Still, it's growing in popularity among conservation-conscious hunters, who now green-hunt in KwaZulu-Natal, Gauteng and North West province.
According to Bartels, there was initially a negative reaction from the traditional hunting community, but they have since seen that there is a place for dart safaris and that nothing is taken away from professional hunters, as one is always required to be present at individual client dart safaris.
Along with hunting associations, the South African Veterinary Society also ensures strict ethics and controls on dart safaris to ensure the well being of wildlife at all times.
Source: South African Tourism

RE: WHA Question
 

I would rather know some facts before I decide my stance not jump on the band wagon.

Are they hunting ranches or enclosures?

Are there weight or speed limits on the bows used?

Is ther a specially designed arrow that is used to cushin the blow?

Do they shoot for the ribcage or the hindquarter?

These are some of the questions I'd like answered before I decide.

Apparently others would rather put a spin on things instead of getting real answers.

Spin;

1. 300fps bows
2. hunting in small fences
3. deer walking around all drugged up
4. vets are there to make sure the animals don't die from the severe injuries the will recieve

Come on guys. Get some facts before we debate this. Facts not assumptions

RE: WHA Question
 

Since the source is SOUTH AFRICAN TOURISM, I have to assume, yes, assume it is another money driven operation. I'm also assuming alot about the wha. For instance I assume the arrows are going to be traveling at a high rate of speed. If not I wouldn't mind being corrected. Someone somewhere makes mention of arguing with "ignorant morons". Well I'm no moron but I am ignorant about a topic until I am taught about said topic. So, maybe someone like Bowsmacker who gives the impression that he is in the know could educate me and help rid the world of ignorance. How fast are the arrows traveling? What precautions are being taken to make sure these arrows will not harm the deer? Do you know the facts or are you ASSUMING they will be non-harmful? If any of you pro-wha posters know the facts please educate the ignorant. I keep reading about facts and only read opinion. I am in general an open minded person. At this point I am strongly against wha and all it stands for and I have yet to hear an argument that will make me alter my view. I don't for a minute believe it will bring non-hunters to the ranks of hunters. It takes a friend, family member or mentor to do such a thing. I will do my part by inviting a non-hunting coworker on a hunt this fall. I think getting a person into the woods and OFF the couch will do much more for hunting than another reason to stay in front of the TV ever will. BTW I can't believe a non-hunter would be interested in watching anyway.

RE: WHA Question
 

Now hunting Rhino with a blowgun...that would be an experience!

As you can see above South Africa is promoting tranquilizer dart hunting, not just of Rhino's but all the big 5 species. Do a google search of dart hunting and you'll find several sites featuring tranquilizer hunts. They claim that "Importantly, animals are only earmarked for darting for specific scientific or research purposes, never for commercial reasons alone." yet it appears that it very much is a commercial venture.

Assuming that this continues to be supported and grow in Africa canit be more than a matter of time before you begin to see it spread to other locations?It's already been aired on at least one major hunting show without any appreciable negative response that I've seen.

If proponents of this WHA tour can point to evidence that this exact same type of hunting is already going on with success in other parts of the world then they may find themselves with some support from the nonhunters. Granted a rhino has a lot thicker skin than a deer but if they can safely shoot a lion or leopard with a dart tipped arrow and show no ill effects then it's likely they could convince people that it would not be dangerous to deer.

RE: WHA Question
 

So basically someone is paying to tranqualize an animal for scientific and/or research purposes and so the Vet Society can learn about the migration patterns, etc of the animals? They are not drugging the animal just to score it? And the person who fires the dart is not going to make loads of money (is in fact PAYING money for this)? And these animals are not born and raised in an enclosed area?

Am I the only one seeing the differences in 'green-hunting' and WHA?

Shannon

RE: WHA Question
 

Someone reply to my post from earlier, please. I can't be the only one out there. I mean how many people post the same thing about the WHA. We allknow whatis wrong with their plan (everything right now), but there are bigger issues than the WHA. As it is now, hunting is not going anywhere unless we let it. Hunting is more endangerbecause loss of land and falling numbers than the WHA. I am not pro WHA by any means but seriouslytranquilizing willNEVERbe substituted for hunting no matter who pushes it. Ahhhhhhhhh!!!! The sky is falling. Thats what this sounds like. Why can't we come up with this much rallying behind positive things that may help our sport. Like new hunter recruitment plans/programs, more people ( US, YOU and ME, HUNTERS) taking the time to introduce people to our sport. From kids to adults, there are tons of people that are interested in hunting and just need someone to give them a spark. I take new people every year. I take my kids, friends kids, buddies from work, anyone who shows interest and I trust to be safe and responsible. How about you?? The future of hunting is in our hands!! Not the anti's, not the WHA. Am I way off base here?? The WHAcan't survive for one simple reason: Hunters don't support it. A hunting organization that all hunters hate and has little to no support from the entire hunting community (doesn't sound like a good business idea to me) and the people trying to push this thing can feel this vibe too. But really what else can we do (other than submit posts bashing the WHA) to help ourselves. Honestly, I hunt with lots of people, rarelydo I see new faces (unless I bring them). SometimesI do but sometimes is not enough. Hunting is often a solitary sport, I mean really who wants to atake time outfrom chasing that buck they've been watching to take some new guy/girl/child out. Trust me, I understand. But that one time you do and that newperson gets a crack at a deer or is lucky enough to get one that's what it's all about. You might spark that hunter's fire in someone and rekindle yours a little too! And you thought you were long winded Shannon, sorry for the length but we have so many good hunters that post here andI believe we all want the same thing, to protect hunting and ensure a good future for hunting for ourselves, our children, their children. I understand peoples views on the WHA and why it causes so much hostility, but letsalso focus on positive things we can do to support what we love.

RE: WHA Question
 

That is exactly what I am asking for, facts. Many have already decided their stance based on what others have decided. I WANT TO KNOW MORE BEFORE I DECIDE.

WHO KNOWS,I MAY COME OUT ON YOUR SIDE IF GIVEN THE FACTS


Until then, I will debate what I perceive as SPIN.

I hope no one is offended. I just would like to know the ins and outs of this whole thing without people spinning things out of control and making assumptions and using that to change others minds.

RE: WHA Question
 

AMEN. NEW61375!

RE: WHA Question
 

OK so they can learn a lot about their captive herds in the enclosures using this system. I would think they already do that to study their animals and their DNA whatever. It still boils down to an eventual use of this system to get clients to pay for a photo for a trophy animal. I think the contest would be an infomercial for the guide/owner. I don't believe the DNR anywhere would allow this outside of game ranches. Deer need to be harvested annually to keep populations in check. I believe windwalker is probably correct in that these deer may become educated to the tranquilizers,but probably not. Many veterinary drugs have an amnesia effect, the reason some have been used as date-rape drugs. The way I see it this is just a way to make money for themselves,I'm against it but I don't see it going mainstream anytime soon, and I doubt anyone will ban hunting.

RE: WHA Question
 

Shannon, I don't really see them as being that far apart.


"So basically someone is paying to tranqualize an animal for scientific and/or research purposes and so the Vet Society can learn about the migration patterns, etc of the animals?"

I guess if you accept on theface their statement that it is strictly for research and not for commercial reasons then you could try to make an argument but when they're getting thousands of dollars from clients willing to pay to shoot these animals do you really think it can be solely managed in the interest of science? I'm sure that the needs of science will be adjusted to meet whatever demand there may be for animals to dart. It's all about money or the "scientists" wouldn't be allowing amateurs to fling dart tipped arrows at them to begin with.

"They are not drugging the animal just to score it? And the person who fires the dart is not going to make loads of money (is in fact PAYING money for this)?"

In effect is is darting them just to score it, at least from the hunters perspective. Some measurements will be taken (I'm sure whatever scoring system is used on that particular species will be measured and documented for the "hunter") a bunch of trophy pictures will be shot and a lot of back slaping will ensue. Is it really a stretch to envision that being a whitetail in those pictures and the "hunter" hoping that nobody darts a bigger deer so he can win some prize money to boot? Money is exchanging hands either way, large sums of money, and the practice has already made its way onto television.

"And these animals are not born and raised in an enclosed area?"

Actually, my understanding is that most hunting in South Africa takes place on fenced game preserves. Larger than the 1,200 acres that was mentioned earlier in this thread for sure but maybe not larger than say a good sized Texas fenced operation. I guess I'm not sure where the dividing line on fair chase vs. unethical is. Is 1,500 acres too small? How about 10,000? 20,000? 50,000?

RE: WHA Question
 

I went dove hunting once with a blow-gun and tranquilizer darts. It didn't go well, I inhaled a dart it stuck in my throat and I looked like Will Farrell in the movie "Old School".Just kidding.