RE: Very disappointed in Muzzy BH performance
 

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote<font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> I think I actually became convinced that I was shooting as well as you could shoot a fixed head and I just had to hope I had PERFECT god-like form at the moment of truth. I was willing to accept that because I stubornly kept blaming myself while in the back of mind I always felt I was not to blame.........the damaged head was the kick in the butt I needed.......We will see what happens next.

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Well really you were to blame. No one told you to keep shooting the Muzzy's once you realized you couldn't group with them. I don't shoot Muzzy's but I can guarantee you that I can screw some in and shoot good with them(shot some of my old ones the other day for giggles). I have shot T-heads, Montecs, and Muzzy's out of my bow this year and they all shot great. So either your bow wasn't tuned, your arrows weren't tuned, or you were having some form problems. Either way it was your fault. Every bow and arrow combination that I have ever seen is capable of shooting broadheads witout flyers of up to 2' feet and contrary to your belief it is your responsibility to either see that they do so or to not take them into the woods. I would never take a bow into the woods that I knew there was a possibilty of shooting up to 2' from where I aimed.

Protect your hunting rights, &quot;Spay or neuter a liberal.&quot;

RE: Very disappointed in Muzzy BH performance
 

Just a final comment, then I'm off this thread...

If you wanted help, then why do you get so damn temperamental when anyone suggests that your form may be erred??

Sorry, but with what you've stated, form inconsistency is the only answer that makes sense.

YOU eliminated arrow/BH/insert combinations yourself...sometimes the combination flies well, sometimes not.

YOU & YOUR PRO SHOP eliminated anything wrong with your bow.

That only leaves 2 things---your release and your form.

You shoot fieldpoints with no problems, so that eliminates your release.

To give you a personal example---I could shoot 2 inch groups at 20 yards, but was canting the bow to the left. It didn't produce any appreciable torque, but the string was smacking me square in the left forearm. With broadheads, my groups spread to 8 inches. A little self-diagnosis and I proceeded to fix the problem (which was my grip)---which eliminated the repeated form problem.

However, now if I revert back to that grip after shooting 40 arrows (which can happen due to lack of concentration), the same problem resurfaces, and is random.

Same thing can happen if you look up from your sight at the target JUST before you release--for me this always results in a low hit. For other guys, they may miss right/left etc., you get the idea. But it is still a random form problem, not mechanical.

As silentassasin stated, form problems don't have to be repeated, they can be random. Most are repeatable and easy to change---it is the random form problems that are hard to correct because it's hard to notice something that happens every 5th shot.

I'm not being a jerk, but god man go back over what you wrote and read it from an objective point of view.

I'm still wondering why & how your so convinced it's not form when you know the arrows can fly well for 20 shots and then something mysteriously &quot;bad&quot; happens to arrow flight.

Good luck,

Hope the new broadheads work. With that set-up you may want to try mechanicals, they fly more like fieldtips to begin with---email 5shot, he has some great info on mechanicals and their performance.

RE: Very disappointed in Muzzy BH performance
 

<font color=red>&quot;So your saying the most likely answer is that I have the skill and form to shoot tight groups out to 30 yards yet somehow randomly I just lose it completely and shoot with such bad form that a flyer that misses the mark by anywhere from 8&quot;--2' results?? Something that I can count on one hand that has happened with my field points in thousands of shots now occurs sometimes as often as 25%.&quot;</font id=red>

Seriously, yes...it happens. I used to shoot a LOT of upper-level paper tournaments. Shot a lot of 3D also. I've seen national champions, that could shoot 59 & 60-X 300 rounds routinely, put one off the five spot target and have no clue what just happened. I've seen top 3D pro shooters completely tank easy shots, and be left wondering how it happened.

It's the human part of archery. No one, no matter how good they are, will ever 100% eliminate the occasional flyer. The best of the best get to the point that they are all but non-existant...but it still happens. We're not shooting machines, we're people. As such we make mistakes. No shame in it at all.

BTW, about the broadheads. If you're not confident in them, you should switch to something else. Confidence in one's equipment is important, and if it's not there it's not there. I've had similar experiences with other heads, and I got rid of them. When you're sitting on stand, watching that deer come in, is no time to be wondering if your broadheads are up to the task.

JRW

RE: Very disappointed in Muzzy BH performance
 

atlasman, You don't happen to have a pic you can show us do you? Have you contacted Muzzy about this?

Bottom line - atlasman had a Muzzy head blow up on something it probably should not have blown up on. Why? Has Muzzy switched something this year on that model?

Let me copy and paste what &lt;b&gt;5 shot&lt;/b&gt; said about this.

&quot;Well, can a muzzy bend, you bet! can it bend on a tree root, yes it can. This can happen to any broadhead, but I suspect that you may have hit somthing a bit harder, and with those &quot;random flyers&quot; I would bet you have an arrow or two that is not setup perfectly, and it also sounds like you don't have enough fletching control. Are you using helical fletching of at least 4&quot; in length? I have bent and broken most every broadhead out there and I can tell you that Muzzys are some of the toughest made, as well as very accurate.&quot;

atlasman, I think people are hitting this from many angles. Some think this post is about poor Muzzy flight performance. Others question why you would go into the field with something you do not trust. Others think the main issue is something was defective with the head. I would like to hear what Muzzy says.

Now, my one nitpick...

You said &quot;I have NEVER been pleased with the flight consistency of these heads and they will be not be on my arrows any more.&quot;

Then why in tarnation were you using them in the field?

I'm glad you're switching heads and I would be curious as to what you decide to go with.

Good luck with the rest of your season.

Edited by - Merit on 11/04/2002 15:39:09

RE: Very disappointed in Muzzy BH performance
 

Hey atlasman, one more question.

Since you shoot your broadheads frequently, could this damage have occured before? Meaning, could you have stressed out this head and caused some unseen damage? Could this be a combination of factors and not just one tree root?

[Deleted]
 

[Deleted by Admins]

RE: Very disappointed in Muzzy BH performance
 

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote<font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> In his original post, atlasman never asked for advice or help, he was simply sharing information about a hunting product that he thought might not be the best to use. This is something that a lot of us have done. Just because the product that he's talking about is very popular does not mean that we need to question his ability or credibility.

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I would question the credibility or ability of anyone that went into the woods with a setup that produced 8&quot; to 2' flyers 25% of the time. That's a 1 in 4 chance of wounding and loosing an animal and in my opinion that is unethical.

Protect your hunting rights, &quot;Spay or neuter a liberal.&quot;

RE: Very disappointed in Muzzy BH performance
 

DUDE!!!!IT AINT THE MUZZY!!!!! THATS ALL I SHOOT, LOOK FOR THAT ROCK!!!!!!

Tony Hericks

RE: Very disappointed in Muzzy BH performance
 

atlasman,

I shoot Muzzy's exclusively and haven't had a failure yet. Do you have a picture we could see? I'd like to see what part bent (honestly, I'm not questioning you!). Thanks.

RE: Very disappointed in Muzzy BH performance
 

Fact is, anything manufactured by man can produce a lemon once in a while.....even broadheads. Under the same scenario the hit may have bent any broadhead if the conditions were just right. I am not going to blast you Atlas, maybe the Muzzys aren't for you. That is why its so great to have so many choices, everyone of us is unique....nobody shoots the same.

I won't be changing, Muzzys perform for me. I get pinpoint accuracy right alongside my field points and the blood trail has been awesome within my experiences.

[Deleted]
 

[Deleted by Admins]

RE: Very disappointed in Muzzy BH performance
 

I guess I and a lot of other Muzzy users got pretty sarcastic about the whole thing since your experience was so opposite our own. If you are shooting field points as well as you say, then it is pretty obvious why you would be frustrated by the situation. ICS Hunters are known for degrading spine when they are shot a lot. That could be a factor. Maybe the spine is just off. Another guy who used to post a lot on another forum had a similar experience with ICS Hunters and Thunderheads. The arrows were underspined. I have had a similar experience when I shot Bear Razorhead Lites. I was shooting very well, and putting broadheads right with field points out to 30-35 yards. They would hit in the center of the 10 ring with almost boring accuracy. Then I put in the bleeder blades, and the arrows dived down and hit the 3D deer target in the leg! I thought it was just a fluke, but the fluke happened several times in a row. Took out the bleeders, and right on the money again. That bow was not tuned as well as I had thought. I don't know what your accuracy problem is actually, but I hope you can solve it. If you can use mechanicals, then I think I would go with the 100 gr. Steelhead for now, since it is the middle of the season in most places. The Steelhead may lose a blade, but I don't think it will come apart. My 100 grain Muzzy sliced through 4 ribs, stuck into a tree root that was about 5 &quot; into the ground, and came out fine. Still spins perfectly, and I have resharpened the blades. Don't know why yours came apart, but I would definitely inform Muzzy about it. You may not want any more of their heads, but they should know what happened to you.

Avoid the inevitable until it is absolutely unavoidable!

RE: Very disappointed in Muzzy BH performance
 

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote<font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>I would question the credibility or ability of anyone that went into the woods with a setup that produced 8&quot; to 2' flyers 25% of the time. That's a 1 in 4 chance of wounding and loosing an animal and in my opinion that is unethical.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>

Aren't you the guy who said you were gonna hunt turkey with a rock this year??


I said SOMETIMES as often as 25%. If I was getting flyers 1 out of 4 shots I would never have went in the woods with them. Like I said they happen at totally random times with no apparent cause so am I supposed to stay out of the woods in fear of a random flyer?? If so then I guess no one should hunt because everyone seems to agree that they can never be totally eliminated.

RE: Very disappointed in Muzzy BH performance
 

One thing I am interested to hear and haven't yet is how much people actually shoot their BH's. I am willing to bet that a large percentage of hunters shoot a handful of shots at best due to not wanting to replace the blades or damage the heads or hunting arrows in any way.

I wonder how many people here are SURE they have good BH flight and control.......not 6 shots with one head and &quot;I'm all set&quot;

Maybe that is why so many wounded posts have been popping up lately.

I have shot the hell out of my MUZZY's........so much so that I bought another pack because I felt the tips were dulled and I wanted to see if I just got a bum pack on the flyer issue.



One thing that is very amusing to me is that I have probably put as much if not more time, effort, thought and work into being prepared and ready to hunt with nothing left to chance as anyone here and yet because I have not had a flawless experience with my MUZZY heads I have been called everything from a liar to unethical and a poor shot.

It's so nice to see the tight knit brotherhood of bowhunters embrace one of it's own and help him through a problem and having sympathy for the grief it has caused him.

How quickly we turn on our own.

How does that saying go???.......Divided we fall??

RE: Very disappointed in Muzzy BH performance
 

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote<font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>I don't agree. Errors in form tend to be repeated time and time again especially under pressure of a tough shot on a 3D course or on the buck of a lifetime......people are habitual, like a guy that slices on the golf course every time he tries to hit the ball a mile.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>

I understand what you are saying. Errors that happen time and time again probably would be consistent. My thought was that it doesn't seem to be consistent at all, might happen some days, others it might not, which led me to that thought. Even Tiger Woods will slice one, then hook one at times which is more than likely a problem with that one particular swing. By the way, how did you know that I slice the ball? Oh wait, you weren't that guy I hit on #15 this summer were you? <img src=icon_smile_clown.gif border=0 align=middle>

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>I have always shot either Muzzy or Thunderhead, and I notice with myself that if I jerk the trigger or torque the bow even slightly while shooting my broadheads, the amount the shot will be off is double or triple that if I were shooting field tips.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>And you are OK with that??? So if your groups are 3&quot; at 30 yards(pretty darn good in my book) and you have a micro flaw on release you may hit as much as 9&quot; from your point of aim??? That is not acceptable to me at all. 9&quot; could be the difference in a kill or miss or even worse a crippling wound. I demand more from my equipment then that.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>

No I am not okay with that. But, I knew the problem was me and not my equipment. And I wasn't going to change equipment just to cover up a problem that was being caused by me. (No, I am not saying you are causing the problem, strictly talking about myself). That is why I worked on my shooting form more than ever. This past spring, I went from a slow, finger shooting bow with logs for arrows, to a fast, lightweight, carbons, shooting a release (for the first time). I expected a lot more from my new setup than I did my old one. So I had to pay a lot more attention to the details than I ever did before in order to cut out the mistakes I was making (that were ultimately causing my consistency errors). Granted, this doesn't have much to do with your case, but I figured I would explain myself a little more.

Yes I read the thread, but I guess I missed your sentence where you said you marked your arrows. (Or I was paying too much attention to the TV while I was reading it.) My mistake.
Hopefully some new heads will straighten this out. I know how aggravating it is, believe me. Good luck to ya.
And I'll answer your question about how often I shoot broadheads...which is every single time I shoot (once I am sure everything is tuned and sighted in). At least a month before season, and all the way through it I won't touch my field tips, no reason to.

--Sign In Chinese Pet Store: &quot;Buy one dog, get one flea...&quot;--

Edited by - IndyHunter on 11/04/2002 22:52:18

RE: Very disappointed in Muzzy BH performance
 

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote<font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> quote:
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I would question the credibility or ability of anyone that went into the woods with a setup that produced 8&quot; to 2' flyers 25% of the time. That's a 1 in 4 chance of wounding and loosing an animal and in my opinion that is unethical.
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Aren't you the guy who said you were gonna hunt turkey with a rock this year??

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Yea, I am the guy who sarcastically said he was going to hunt turkeys with a rock. But I am not the guy that took off into the woods with equipment that shoots from 8&quot; - 2' off 25% of the time. I would never take equipment into the woods that I didn't feel 100% confident about it performing. Where as you went into the woods knowing there was a good chance that you could shoot at a perfectly broadside deer's chest and hit it in the ass with no interference other than you're equipment not being tuned. If you can't hit with any type of broadhead you don't go into the woods with it. Yea, Yea, we know Muzzy suck because you can't make them group eventhough millions of others shoot them they are just a piece of @#$#. Yea, Yea, we know Muzzy's will break off on blades of grass if you hit them solid eventhough millions of bowhunters have taken game with them and then reused the same head and eventhough the vast majority of both Muzzy and NonMuzzy users agree that Muzzy's are the toughest broadheads on the market I guess would should all throw them down as junk since you had one bad experience. If you would spend a little less time on here typing and little more time tuning your arrows and broadheads or working on your form we probably wouldn't even be having this conversation, or you know what spend all the time that you want in both and stay out of the woods until you get your accuracy issues worked out.

Protect your hunting rights, &quot;Spay or neuter a liberal.&quot;

RE: Very disappointed in Muzzy BH performance
 

For the last time Silentass I said that SOMETIMES it got as bad as 25%.......I have been shooting and tinkering with these heads for weeks and yes at it's worst I was getting flyers 25% of the time. AT IT'S WORST. I do not get flyers 25% of the time with them now......I still get them but not nearly that often. ANY flyer is too many for me though so I am still not happy with them.

If anything, I am guilty of being a perfectionist. You can say all you want about my bow not being tuned or me not being able to shoot or me being unethical or whatever other garbage you feel like spewing and it won't change my experience with these heads.

I made it VERY clear in my initial post that I know MUZZY's reputation is very solid......in fact that along with a recommendation by my proshop guys is why I bought them. I know MUZZY heads are used by millions of hunters.......I am sure that the majority of those hunters are happy with them. That still doesn't change what has happened to me. I have NEVER said that others should not use MUZZY heads, I have NEVER said MUZZY heads are junk. I HAVE said that I am very disappointed in the performance I have gotten out of these heads on my setup. No matter what you think, I have tried everything known to man to get better accuracy out of these heads and it has not worked. I took a shot in the field that struck nothing of any serious nature and the head was crippled. These 2 things combined have pushed me to the point to where myself and the game I hunt will be better off if I stop fighting this uphill battle and just find some other heads that perform better in my setup. I have a pack of WASP mechanicals and Thunderheads that I will be shooting today to see how they perform. I am also going to shoot my MUZZY heads(that I have left) and do a side by side comparison that should tell the story once and for all. If the WASPS and/or the Thunderheads fly perfect out of my setup then I will have my answer that something on the MUZZY head doesn't agree with me. If they all shoot the same I will know that I must be doing something wrong because 3 different BH are not gonna all perform bad.........then the common denominator will be me.


WE shall soon see.



Now go throw a rock at a bird

RE: Very disappointed in Muzzy BH performance
 

I was given a similar reason for a Muzzy failure I experienced about 2 years ago. At the time, I was shooting a 67-lb Hoyt Striker, with the Redline single-cam at 264 fps. The arrows were Nitro Stinger Gold's, and the broadhead was a 125-grain 3-blade Muzzy. Up to that point, I had used Muzzy heads, and only Muzzy heads. Overall, I had always been very satisfied with their performance, and had many kills using them.

One morning in Kansas, I had a buck walk the ridge in front of my stand. I stopped him at 12-yards, and shot him. The deer was slightly quartering-to, and the head would have needed to pass very close to the shoulder. I &quot;saw&quot; the head hit where I was looking, and the buck took off. I assumed I'd killed him, and after a while I decided to climb down and retrive the arrow. I was shocked at what I saw. The arrow had blood for about an inch or less behind the broadhead. The Muzzy was completely trashed. Two of the three blades were gone (never found them), and the third was only hanging on because the ferrule was destroyed and bent, holding it sort of in place. The ferrule was bent very badly. I tracked that deer for several hours before I found him again - very much alive and apparently OK.

I suppose this can be blamed on me, because I expected the head to pass so close, or even through, the front shoulder. The shot was so close, I assumed it could be done. After some investigation, I was given a similar explanation - that Muzzy was having issues with the metal used for the ferrules that year. Again, this was 2 years ago or so.

I'm not bashing Muzzy. This was an isolated incident, with many variables involved. I no longer use Muzzy, simply because of the mental aspect of not having the same &quot;faith&quot; in them I used to have.



MOCraig

RE: Very disappointed in Muzzy BH performance
 

Before I hunt with any of my broadheads Conventional or Mechanical I shoot them in a broadhead block until they are tuned right for me! I normally don't reuse my mechanicals unless I replace the blades. And I touch up my conventionals After they are tuned. Now on the muzzy's I love there performance but I have to tune them to each of my arrows. Hey maybe the head you used had a flaw! I used the 90 Grain 4 Blades before & put one through the oppisite shoulder Blade. Only had to replace the blades the heads were fine. On Saturday I shot a doe @ 20 yards with a 4 Blade 125 Grain Muzzy & my arrow went trough the spine & out the other side 8&quot;. Only bent blades as well! Like I siad maybe a flaw in the head you had!