Penetration or devastation; that is the question
 

Penetration or devastation; that is the question. I shoot a Mathews Ultra II 30in draw 70lbs with a skinny carbon arrow Cabela’s SST 230 or V-MAX 2300 tipped with a Rocket Hammerhead 100gr 2in cut. The arrow w/broadhead is about 450gr and flies about 276fps.
This setup is devastating on deer and I have seen them drop in 30 to 40 yards with a double lung pass through. I know that this setup may leave something to be desired in the penetration department and that is what brings me to my question. This question has very little to do with deer and more to do with hogs.
Last year we started getting a few hogs on our place and feeling that we would get a shot on them I purchased a pack of Rocket Steelhead broadheads. They are 100gr and open up to 11/8in. They seem like they would out penetrate the 2in cut of the Hammerheads and that is what I was going to need to kill a hog was penetration and good shot placement. Well I got my chance to find out; I shot about a 300lb sow standing broadside at 15 yards. I hit her good; right behind the shoulder about mid way on her body. I am very certain about this because the arrow did not pass through and I could see it sticking out of her as she ran a circle around my stand. Well there was about 8 other hogs with her and a few moments later a 250lb boar came running back down the trail right were I had just shot her. I only had one Steelhead with me and shot him with the Hammerhead I had for deer. I hit him just beside the spine; behind his shoulders. Almost straight down. After about 30 minutes I couldn’t stand it anymore and got down and found no blood. After a prolonged search we found him about 60 yards from the stand and did not find her until the next day several hundreds of yards from the stand.
I chalked that one up to experience but was determined to find out just what to do for this year. I won’t tell you some of the crazy stuff some people told me but I again came out thinking that I needed a good penetrating broadhead and that I need to hit lower on a hog than a deer. So I turned to an old friend I use to hunt with. The 90gr four bladed Muzzy. A small 1in cut; but no one can question its penetration ability. I use to hunt with them until I switched to the Hammerheads 5 years ago. I made sure my bow was tuned a found an arrow that would fly with my field tips. I was sure that I was ready now.
Not! Same thing as last year. I shot about an 80lb boar at 12 yards quartered away. I hit him behind the shoulder about half way up again. It sounded like the arrow stopped on his other shoulder. We did find some blood; but it was very spotty. After about 500 yards the dog was unable to find any more blood to follow. Lost another one!
After much debate on the subject; an old hunting buddy convinced me to use the Hammerhead and not to go for penetration. This past Thursday I shot a 230lb boar at 15 yards slightly quartered away. I hit him high behind his left shoulder; cutting the bottom of the backstrap on that side. The arrow did not exit and the hog ran about 70 yards and fell dead running. I did not get an exit wound but I did get the hog. I do not consider myself an experienced hog hunter but I have shot a lot of deer with my bow and do nothing but bow hunt. So far I have shot four hogs with my bow and only found two (in editable condition anyway). I killed all of them but it took so long for the ones shot with the small broadheads to die that I think that devastation outweighs penetration; on hogs anyway.
Being that I have only shot four, are there any experienced hog hunters out there that would disagree with my conclusion? I have not shot enough of them to know if the two I found were just flukes. We have a trail camera photo of a hog that looks to be over 400lbs and I really want to get a shot at him. As it stands now I am planning on using the Hammerheads but I would be willing to change my setup if someone could convince me otherwise.

Wayne B.

RE: Penetration or devastation; that is the question
 

That's some tough luck you've been having there. Personally, I think I'd opt for a little heavier arrow, with either a (bigger) muzzy or a magnus 2 blade. You would still have plenty of speed and, alot more KE which would probably help. I personally shoot the magnus, and I can almost guarantee you tremendous penetration, even on those big hogs. Hope it works out for you. Let us know.

RE: Penetration or devastation; that is the question
 

Wayne, like you I am primarily a deer hunter, but did some hog hunting when I lived in Florida. I shot a hog down there with the Muzzy broadheads you were talking about. The shot was 28 yards broadside and the arrow passed through the hog. She ran about 70 yards and dropped from the double lung hit. It sounds like on the two you lost you may have slipped the arrow in a little far back and not caught the lungs. No animal, hog, deer, elephant, whatever is going to go very far with both lungs deflated. The increased cutting diameter of the Hammerhead may have helped collapse both lungs on the other shots allowing you to find the hogs easier. My feeling on the subject is that a smaller diameter head will kill just as quickly as a large diameter head, but the larger head gives you greater margin for error. Obviously you are confident and successful with the Hammerheads so I would keep using them.

RE: Penetration or devastation; that is the question
 

boy tough question. I have never hunted hogs but I plan too! I agree the hammerhead is simple devastating on deer! now onto hogs, I was having the same thought as you, when I get to go this year I was going to use the demon which is just about the same thing as the steelhead. I figured a little extra penetration would be nice.

now seeing your experience I would say you may need to try to get closer to the heart lung area. If you do that either head should work fine. Those hammerheads do rip things up bad that is forsure! I would say you would be fine to continue using them. They will give you a little extra room for error on the shot.

RE: Penetration or devastation; that is the question
 

Something you might wanna consider for the hogs is a heavier arrow. Your overall arrow weight is pretty darn light, like most deer hunters using carbons these days. A heavier arrow set up will help with penetration.

Just a thought...

RE: Penetration or devastation; that is the question
 

Wayne, at the risk of sounding like a "know-it-all" I will throw in my couple shekels of advice. I would weigh your broadhead/arrow combination to be sure that you are at the 450 grain mark and not less. If your numbers are correct that would give you around 76 lbs of KE. Many hogs have been killed with a lot less, and certainly skinny carbons have a great reputation for penetration. I have killed game with each of the heads you have mentioned but I will say that the hammerhead wreaked more devastation and tissue damage than the others (and why wouldn't it with a two inch cut). It sounds to me from your description of your hog hunts that your shot placement is the biggest culprit working against you. Even on good shot one might not get a decent blood trail on a hog so you have to take out both lungs and /or the heart to take them down quick. Any of the broadheads you mentioned will do that if put in the right location. Often times angles are hard to judge and what would seem like a double lung hit isn't always the case. Even seeing one end of the arrow doesn't always give one an accurate reading. Without seeing both ends of the arrow an illusion can be created leading one to believe it was a great hit, when in fact it may not have been.

In answer to your penetration/devastation question, I like a good blend of both. But really the bottom line is... if you put a broadhead square through both lungs of any animal, it is not going to go very far. It doesn't matter whether it is a one, two, three, or a four blade head...they all cause the animal to "kick the oxygen habit" pronto! :)

RE: Penetration or devastation; that is the question
 

What he said.

RE: Penetration or devastation; that is the question
 

Antler Eater,

I am quite certain about the arrow weight and have been using the same arrow setup for about five years now. This is my first year to hunt with this bow. I had a Mathews Z-Max before and it shot about 269fps with this arrow setup. Not wanting to show too much ignorance; but I have to ask what is the deal with the kenotic energy equation?
I am not at all clear about heavier arrows. When the guys I hunt with started bow hunting about 9 years ago we came upon the arrow controversy. I thought that we had settled it then, maybe not. We shot every arrow we could get our hands on through a sheet of ¾ in plywood. It was not even close. The skinny carbon arrows (AFC V-Max 2300) out penetrated everything else by at least 8 in. We shot them against the AFC 2400 and 2500 which are heavier but they did not out penetrate the skinnier 2300. So the conclusion we came to was that it was more a question of friction. The larger the arrow diameter, the more friction and less penetration. The aluminums we shot did not make a good showing at all. All of the carbons far out penetrated all of the aluminums. So the reason I am shooting the skinny arrows is because of this test. I did try filling an arrow with silicone to add weight. It added about 66gr (516gr) but the silicone made it hard to glue the nock and it kept coming out. Not to mention it was very messy!
I would change arrows tomorrow if someone could show me that another arrow will out penetrate the one I am using. I have a shop full of arrows that I have tried over the years but after 9 years I am still shooting the skinny arrows ( AFC is no longer in business but Cabelas SST 230 and Carbon Tech still make them ).

Wayne B.

RE: Penetration or devastation; that is the question
 

Wayne, If your arrows are at or in the neighborhood of the weight stated I don't think the problem is arrow weight. (There are many knowledgeable people who shoot the skinny carbons because of their ability to penetrate so well)Obviously some of my peers would disagree and certainly they have every right to. I don't think the debate over arrow weight vs speed, Kinetic Energy vs Momentum, will ever be settled to everyone's satisfaction.

Again if your numbers are correct I don't think your set up is the problem. I think it boils down to shot placement. Take the wind out of the sails and the boat stops sailing in short order. :)

RE: Penetration or devastation; that is the question
 

Antler Eater,

I certainly agree with you that shot placement is everything. I don’t think that I am an expert marksman with my bow but I can consistently shoot about a three to four inch group at 30 yards, pulling one every once in a wile. I have friends who shoot a lot better than me but every one knows that shooting a target and shooting a live animal is two different things all together. I feel that out of all the shots on hogs I made the last one was the only poor shot. It was high. Not where I wanting to hit him. The others hit where I wanted. I have shot deer and hit the leg bone on bad shots. With both expandable and fixed broadheads. They all had the same conclusion; no deer and lost $10 arrow setup.
For this reason, I shy away from shooting to close to the shoulder. I read post of people talking about a pass through shots at 40 yards or cracking leg bones with a pass through. This has not been my experience at all. Maybe I’m missing something!
This is why I am posting this question. For whatever reason it seems that I have better luck finding what I shoot when I use the larger broadhead. So far I am three for four this year; two deer one hog.

Wayne B.

RE: Penetration or devastation; that is the question
 

Wayne, I hope you didn't think that I was saying you are a poor shot. Certainly wasn't my intent at all.

You're definitely right about the many differences there are in shooting targets and live animals. For one thing in shooting targets you are not worried about the angle, only where the arrow impacts. On live animals you have to be just as aware of the flight path of the arrow as you are where it hits. Angle is everything. Further we won't even get into the movement of the animal or awkward shooting positions.

Certainly a bigger broadhead gives one a larger margin for error. I too have had excellent results with the Hammerhead 3L. I don't think you are missing anything in reference to passthroughs and bones. If on a mature animal, a person hits the ridge on the scapula bone square, the arrow is NOT going through, I don't care what your shooting.

I wish you well...

[Deleted]
 

[Deleted by Admins]

RE: Penetration or devastation; that is the question
 

You sound like you are doing alright. Just some bad luck is all. Usually when you don't get a pass through, it is because you hit the arm on the opposite side. With pigs, the heart lies literally at the bottom of the chest just behind the armpit. It's a good idea to aim for the elbow. That's probably the best place to aim. You hit low, you hit the heart. Lungs if you are right on and high is also lungs but if you hit higher, your gonna get a bad blood trail. You really have some trophy sized pigs over there. They probably have really heavy pads. The pads won't extend to much below the elbow so on huge boars like the one you shot, for best penetration (even though you should be able to get a pass through even through the pad) you should aim low and you will always get clean pass throughs great blood trails, and the animal will go down quickly. I don't know how the sow went that far. She must had been tough.

My NAP thunderhead 85 grains drop pigs in the same distance and that is just out of my 45 pound compound. The bow is also capable of getting pass throughs on pigs. Or at least it would if I didn't always hit the arm on the other side.



Nic

RE: Penetration or devastation; that is the question
 

Nic.

You are not the first person to mention the elbow as an aiming point but it sure seems like an unforgiving place to aim. Shoot a little low and you missed completely. I think I will take your advice and aim there if the hog is not moving around. I was hoping that someone else had used a large expandable on hogs before and would confirm what I am suspecting. If I can consistently drop them within 100 yards I would be happy with that. We use a dog to blood trail and it will go right to one that is on the ground; even if there is no blood. I can’t tell you how many times the dog has saved us. That was the smartest thing we ever did. So I guess I will use the Hammerhead and let yall know if misfortune visits me again. If I could figure out how to post photos I would post some of my kills. Nic, the hogs seem to be good size but the tusks are not that large. Not like I’ve seen some photos of. The last ones were about 1 ½ to 2 in, the one I shot last year was heavier but had even smaller tusk. I know very little about hogs and have no idea why this would be; I would guess genetics like deer.


Wayne B.

RE: Penetration or devastation; that is the question
 

Wayne, would love to see your pics, I sent your an email. Get back to me if you have any problems or need help.

The best of luck in all your hunting endeavors!!!

God Bless,
Dave