Disgusted with PA
 

http://www.huntingnet.com/forum/tm.aspx?m=1322255

RE: Disgusted with PA
 

check out the article I believe in Deer and Deer Hunting this month about the plan of attack in PA. basically stated, they feel that with the amount of doe tags given out, the amount of deer in the state at the time (1.6 million) that the total deer herd could be as low as 160k. this is all a numerical guess off the number of deer taken, tags filled, and number of hunters.

RE: Disgusted with PA
 

NY did the same thing for years. In fact, they got to relying so much on the extra zillion dollars they collect from doe permits they kept increasing them. We(the hunters) who have been hunting there for 40 years have been saying stop the doe permits, but they kept on. This year they finally stopped them because kill numbers were so low. We used to see 20 or 30 deer a day. This year 4 of us saw a total of 9 does on our annual trip. An especially hard winter and we might see NONE next year. I agree, a bunch of non hunting college grads trying to develope a plan that makes them famous. They really don't listen to the people in the woods. Oh sure, there are still some deer there, but Chenango County is hurting.

RE: Disgusted with PA
 

I live in PA and have been hunting since 1966.THERE'S SO MANY MORE DEER NOW THAN WHENI STARTED THAT IT'S AMAZING TO HEAR ALL THE RUKUS GOING ON ABOUT THE POOR HUNTING. I'm 100% convinced that if people actually "hunted" deer instead of trying to gang push them and set in the exact same stands as they have forever that people would start seeing and getting deer again. Take away the walkie talkies, ATV's and heated tree houses and maybe people would actually learn how to hunt again.

RE: Disgusted with PA
 

the deer herd is no where near 160k.......its low in some parts but others still have way to many

RE: Disgusted with PA
 

I've been wondering the same thing myself. Of all the people complaining, how many of them are actually good hunters, that consistently take deer....with a gun or a bow? Sitting at my buddies powerline on the first day of pa's gun season, and 2 evenings last week, I was amazed at the number of road hunters cruising by me at 2 mph. Saturday with the snow down, it was a really disgusting site to see nobody in the woods, but instead cruising around in the trucks.

I couldn't be happier with the bowhunting personally. I killed a buck every year since 1993, and usually a doe or 2. I can honestly say I haven't had a bad year. I've had slow years, but usually because I was lazy with the scouting, or work or school slowed me down. But a little leg work found the deer sooner or later..........whether it was private or public land.

RE: Disgusted with PA
 

Mikey, I'm sure glad you posted. I have been listening (reading) about this stuff for so long that I just had to voice my opinion. Like you, I haven't had a "bad" season in more than 40 yrs. of hunting. I've shot deer every year I've hunted except for two. Back in "the day" it was thrilling to just get a shot at a deer, period. Years before they came up with the antler restrictions I had set my own standard and now it really doesn't make any difference. I know a bunch of people that hunt by ganging up on the thick stuff and driving every deer in there out to a stander who suddenly aren't getting any deer. I hunt those same areas and the deer are no longer bedding where they are pushing! It all boils down to knowing how to hunt deer or your not going to see and get deer.
All the land I hunt is open to the public. I don't and wont pay to hunt private property. I spend some time everyday of the year in the woods scouting and keeping tabs on the deer I hunt. Except for rifle season, I'm alone 100% of the time and guess who complains about the deer hunting?

RE: Disgusted with PA
 

Longbowman2 - I agree with all that you have said. But I will say that I do have some buddies that hunt around the mountain areas of PA, and they are having a hard time finding themselves some deer to hunt. But to me, the mountains were always slow, primarily the reason why I don't hunt there. Some of the game lands are slow in my area too; but I can guarantee if I hunted my favorite game land spots for a week, I'd see enough deer to fill some tags. I'll also guarantee it'll take about 30 minutes to walk to these spots....which is fine by me. But you're right, you gotta spend time to find them. I've taken 20 bucks with a bow since 1993 in PA, MD, and WV combined, and I know I've never shot more than one buck from a single, particular tree. I change every year. You almost have to. Gun hunting is the same. You have to adapt to pressure, food and security cover.

I heard a saying when I was 13 from an older fella that I knew when I first started hunting: "10% of the hunters take 90% of the deer."Sound famalier?

RE: Disgusted with PA
 

i don't know if you guys are trying to imply that i'm a bad hunter or what, but i can assure you i know what i'm doing. i have a bunch of trophys from both PA and WV. both rifle and bow kills. i've seen deer this year, passed some up hence why i don't have a buck yet this year. a 13" wide 8 point will make a great buck next year.

if i wanted to kill a deer i would, but im just telling you what i've noticed the past few seasons. it's getting harder and harder just to SEE a deer let alone pass some up. i'm just wondering what its going to be like 5-10 years in the future if this keeps up. i'll be working and won't have every single day of the week all season long to sit on stand just to see a few doe and possibly a buck. a small handful of deer all season is ridiculous.

mikey, i hunt the carmicheals area a good bit and there are still a good bit of deer left there. some spots around masontown and greene county still have a good number of deer, but everywhere else doesn't. this is probably why you think the deer herd is no danger. i own a farm in central fayette and theres hardly any left. also, saturday evening the woods were PACKED with hunters. they might have all been road hunting where you are, but in connellsville the woods were so crowded you always had blaze orange in sight no matter where you went.

just because there were no deer back in the day doesn't mean we should go back to that. that doesn't mean it was right. if we can avoid going back to the days where "just getting a shot off" during a rifle season was common i think we should do so. i promise you, at the rate we are going, you won't have to worry about buying more than one box of shells every four to five seasons. as far as bow, a half dozen of arrows will probably do in that time.

RE: Disgusted with PA
 

I know there is a lot of complaining from many PA guys. Some of it I'm sure is guys being whiny cause its not "easy" to get a deer anymore. BUT some I believe some is from honest, hard hunting guys who are still finding it very difficult and have seen the herds be decimated in some areas. It's a tough solution becuse the areas are so unequal. We can't just say go back to how it was, just as we can't say to continue as is in all areas.

RE: Disgusted with PA
 

Could be worse..........you could live in NY.

RE: Disgusted with PA
 

I know the herd is down somewhat in Warren County where we hunt when at camp. The number of hunters is also down. There are deer there though and some really nice bucks too. Success in the mountains is sometimes dependant on the number of hunters in the woods pushing the deer around. Second day was always hard because there were no hunters around to push them to you. Mountain deer seem to be more sensitive to pressure and harder to hunt one on one. Where I hunt at home has never been better. My Dad, two brothers and I all tagged out in archery on bucks this year. We have never come close to that in years past. The good 'ole days are here and now for buck hunting in PA...in my opinion. (Where I hunt at least)

RE: Disgusted with PA
 

I'll just make some statements and let you judge what this means.
1) This is the first year since 1983 that our camp got skunked. (6 hunters..buck only)
2) Opening day I saw 20 deer. My record is 85 with mid 40's being the norm.
3) I saw 0 confirmed legal bucks ( i sawa buck with a nice beam, but no way to confirm points)
4) Tuesday-- true the weather was horrible I saw 0 deer
5) As a group we saw 3 legal bucks and 7 non-legal bucks, no shots taken.
6) Saturday, usually a good day..saw 3 deer

RE: Disgusted with PA
 

My NY season this year has included over 150 hours in the woods so far and I have seen 1 buck with a rack (a 4 pt)........I am not counting spikes which I saw a couple of.

This is over lots of different areas.......public and private........bow and gun........and 6-7 different counties.

Seen probably around 20 something does (9 of which were all at once)


Pretty freakin' scarey.

RE: Disgusted with PA
 

Went out tonight. Had a group of 7 does under my stand. Had not been in that stand for three weeks. While my friend walked down toward me so I did not spook them , I had 4 more does and a buck pass me on the other side.

Last week in all that lovely weather saw 6, 4 does and 2 bucks on Monday. Two on Thursday including an 8pt taken at our camp. 11 does on Friday in the wind and snow.

I don't know where all the deer have gone????????

OH Yea! I have had to put my stands in new locations this year.

RE: Disgusted with PA
 

So are you saying that everyone's perceived lack of deer in the woods is actually due to their inability to properly place a stand?

RE: Disgusted with PA
 

stand placement isnt the problem.

pennsylvania is such a diverse state with many different habitats. that is the main problem. some areas around cities and civilization still see a bunch of deer, while the more mountainous and rural areas are seeing less. the game commission needs to do a better job of which areas they allocate the doe tags to. maybe even have different doe seasons for the different WMU's (wildlife management units). there's so many different habitats here thats its impossible to satisfy them all with the same laws

RE: Disgusted with PA
 

Probably the most amazing post I've read in a long time! And this guy is against QDM[&:]

You have no bucks because you kill them all when they are in spots, you have waaaaay too many does, and yet you whine that you only saw one buck....DUHHHHH! OPEN YOUR EYES!!!![:-]

RE: Disgusted with PA
 

Absolutely...........we don't need QD...........we just need D.


You can't shoot any more bucks now then you ever could before.


Obviously you didn't read......or just don't understand my post. If we had waaaaaay too many does I would have seen more then 20 in over 150 hours in the woods. We don't have waaaaaaaaay too many anything. We have waaaaay too little everything.


My eyes are wide open...........we need to back off on the number of deer taken (especially does). Has absolutely nothing to do with QDM.

RE: Disgusted with PA
 

I consider myself a fair hunter in terms of how seriously I take it and how successful I am in it. I will say that deer numbers in all of the areas that I hunt are down significantly in the last 3 or 4 years. But that was the intention of Gary's program now wasn't it? Shoot more does and reduce the number of 1.5 year old bucks taken. Well, he has accomplished that. The question is when is it enough? As mentioned we cannot have blanket policies that govern most if not all of the state. The herd needs to be micromanaged. The current WMUs are much too large to be effective in controlling deer numbers within them. The difference between private and public land alone is enough to justify changes in the deer management policies.

I feel very fortunate to have taken a nice buck during archery season this year and I hope to be as fortunate next year. However, I do believe that the intensive hunting of does really needs to be cut back at this point. Many public land areas are being decimated by the generous seasons and bag limits. We really need to....

1) Reduce that two week rifle season for does. I don't have any specific suggestions but two full weeks is just too much considering the current herd levels in some areas.

2) Eliminate or further regulate the early muzzleloader season in October.

3) Reduce the number of doe tags issued specifically to heavily pressured areas. It does no good to issue 40,000 tags to a Wildlife Management Unitwith heavily pressured but limited public hunting land.

RE: Disgusted with PA
 

The proof will be in the pudding so to speak when the kill numbers are released in the spring. I really expect a huge decline in NY, not because of a lack of doe permits but because of alack in deer numbers. There are of course some pockets that still have abundant herds, but as long as NY keeps chunking out the doe permits in those areas it'll change. PLUS, the CWD in Oneida county should really put a hurt there. I come from a long line of very good hunters. I mean, we always get a LOT of deer. My brother and his gang typically shoot 15-20 bucks. I think they have 3 this year. My one nephew and his son always limit out. This year they have a couple does and one nice 10 point. My other nephew usually limits out...he's come up dry. My other 2 nephews usually limit out, one has 2, etc etc etc. My highschool buddies are quite prolific when it comes to killing. None of the 3 has a deer or saw a buck to shoot. Admittedly 2 of them don't hunt that much but the other does throughout the Northern and Southern Tier. I talked to some locals I usually bow hunt with in NY. One guy who limits out EVERY year has zero deer at last report. Need I go on. These folks are hunting from Boonville to Bainbridge. My brother himself has taken well over 300 deer, and when he isn't seeing deer you better worry NY. We'll see when the reports come out. Of course they'll come up with all sorts of reasons why the counts are down in efforts to cover their butts.

RE: Disgusted with PA
 

Absolutely...good points. It is a shame how so many hunters feel it necessary to fill every single tag they are eligible for...when common sense should tell them in certain areas it's a good idea and in others its not.

RE: Disgusted with PA
 

I don't know that "necessary" has anything to do with it. I think people fall into the trap of believing that every hunter out there is like the ones found on this board.............reality check........They are not. The VAST majority of fellas don't spend every waking hour of their lives consumed with the minutia of the state's deer herd. They get out a few weekends a year and yea, many of them are not as educated as they should be about a great many things.........but reality is that they are out there in HUGE numbers and they have every right to fill a tag as the guy who eats, sleeps, and craps deer 24/7---365. These guys DEPEND on the DEC to take care of things they don't have time for or simply don't care to do. They pay taxes, and they pay license fees.........all of which is supposed to get them a reliable agency with the best interest of the herd and the state's hunters in a nice balance. So when they are handed 7 tags it tells them there are deer numbers out the wazoo and it's a green light to fill those tags because they DEC wouldn't give them out if it would destroy the deer herd right?? So they went out to camps and filled their tags............thinking they were not only not hurting anything, but also enjoying the perks of an exponentially growing herd and actually helping to control it. Then as the deer disappear and didn't return they all sat there and wondered why in the hell they were still being given a pocket full of tags even though the deer numbers were way down........By then it was too late. The damage had already been done.

At least in PA they were TOLD that they wanted the herd crushed. They may not like it down there but no one can say they didn't know it was coming. In NY they destroyed the deer herd either through their own stupidity or by lying to everyone..........either way NY hunters were unknowingly used to slaughter and destroy what they love best. Now we all have to suffer for it for who knows how many years. At least PA has a plan and whether it works or not at least they were all informed and allowed to decide their role in the future there. In NY we are sitting in many areas with hardly any deer around and when you ask our DEC they lie and say "OH......THEY ARE OUT THERE IN RECORD NUMBERS........GO GET 'EM!!" or they just scratch their heads and say "OOOPS, WE REALLY SCREWED UP BY KILLING SO MANY DEER.....OH WELL, BETTER LUCK NEXT YEAR"

We were decimated by ignorant incompetence.........or greed. Blaming hunters for believing the DEC wasn't lying to them is pretty far fetched IMO.

RE: Disgusted with PA
 

this year the doe license dropped 1,010,000 since last year, also, i would just try northern pa, that's where i go and i find deer numbers to be kind of plentiful