Cross Bow Frustration
 

First of all, I have nothing against Illinois Crossbow regs...when they are truly needed. That being said I was in the woods today when a forty year old man was setting up stands for the upcoming season...This guy was building a permanent wooden stand 20 feet in the air, carrying boards up ladders swinging a hammer with both hands. You get the picture. During general conversation I ask him about his bow and he says I use a crossbow. So I asked him how he got his permit, his answer I have pin in my right ankle from a high school football injury.
Sorry about the long post, Just had to vent.

RE: Cross Bow Frustration
 

I'm a pro-crossbow endorser who has done much research on the Crossbow vs. Stick Bow debate since the first article appeared in Deer & Deer Hunting magazine many years ago.

Having said that - I have owned nearly every brand of compound bow, many recurves, one longbow, and two crossbows.

First - my testing showed that my crossbows to had no greater range nor velocity than my $250 compound bows shooting normal alum arrows with a release. The only advantage I found both crossbows to have was the ability (and ease) for good grouping and arrow flight right out of the box.

I've seen and heard all the arguments:
[ul][*]A crossbow isn't a bow[*]A crossbow will increase poaching activity[*]Crossbows are dangerous[*]If crossbows are legalized the woods will be full of more hunters[*]If crossbows are legalized the deer numbers will decrease[*]Crossbows give the archer an unfair advantage[*]Etc.[/ul]


Let me say that I found my crossbows (Horton Hunter and Excalibur Exocet) to be no faster than my 65# compound shooting 2117's and a 125 hr broadhead shot with a release. Crossbows are no more dangerous than any other bow. I don't see where a crossbow offers any more of an advantage than today's compound shooters using hi-tech sights, releases, carbon arrows, mechanical broadheads, limb savers, 85% Let Off cams, etc.

States such as Ohio have had a legal crossbow season for over 20 yrs. They have recorded no increase in poaching since its introduction. There has been no increase in poaching (ever try to stick a crossbow out a car window? Try it sometime!) since its introduction. In fact, the .22 caliber rifle is still considered to be the #1 choice of poachers. Bow-shot deer travel way too far for a poacher to mess with.

Ohio's deer herd hasn't suffered in the least since the crossbow became legalized. Ohio's successful bowhunters are reported to have less than a 10% (if that) success ratio in harvesting a whitetail deer. So the argument that legalizing the crossbow is going to reduce the deer herd or increase the hunters chances of bagging a deer doesn't hold up. Isn't that what we want anyway? Don't we want hunters to be successful and reduce the deer herd size annually?

Crossbows give the archer an unfair advantage. Hogwash! A crossbow shoots no father than a compound bow. Yes, it does allow the new archer (or any archer in fact) the ability to shoot well - and shoot well faster and with less practice than other archers. And this is a bad thing I ask? How many deer are wounded - or worse, lost due to poor shooting archerswho can't hit the broadside of a barn or violate the Rule of 'Know your effective range limit and do not exceed it.' Plenty. Having archers shoot well is what we are all after. Tight groups and accurate shooting.

And last but not least - "If crossbows are legalized the woods will be full of hunters." BS. As a prior NYS Dept. of Environmental Conservation employee in NY I can attest to the fact that our state has suffered decreasing numbers of hunters every year for the last 20 yrs. This is of great concern to state agencies not only in decreased sporting license sales (dollars)but also decreased state revenues to other agencies and vendors. Others that also suffer loss of income are: taxidermists, sporting goods stores, ATV sales, hunting clothing manufacturers, hunting radios, hotels, motels, gas, insurance (on ATV's, 4x4's), etc.

So - my vote goes for legalization of the crossbow in NY state.

Pro Crossbow all the way baby! If another bowhunter would rather not use crossbows - fine - use your stickbow. But don't take any MY ability or right to use the crossbow. The crossbow has as much place in history as the recurve or longbow. In fact - the crossbow has more history than the compound bow does.

I've seen to many bowhunters have to give up bowhunting due to shoulder injuries, aging, post cardiac surgery, arthritis, etc. While I don't endorse those who abuse the requirements of permits to use the crossbow if not allowed in their state I do feel that if someone hasa physical limitation they be allowed to use one. And I also feel we should just legalize them and be done with it. Pennsylvania has just legalized crossbows and other neighboring states have done so as well. Good for them.

RE: Cross Bow Frustration
 

Sounds like he is abusing the system. Here in TX the rules say you must
have a upper limb disability to use a xbow during bow season. Seems like a
crooked doctor he must have too.

RE: Cross Bow Frustration
 

hey scoobie...I don't believe he was bashing using the cross bow. He was upset that a guy used the system to be able to use a cross bow. However...I did not see the original post before editing..so if I missed something that caused your response, I applogize.

In Illinois you have to be handicapped to use a cross bow. How the guy got a Dr. to signthe form saying he wan't able to use a regular bow is the question.

I wonder if I can get one because I blew my knee out 10 years ago?

RE: Cross Bow Frustration
 

Very well said Scoobiedoo. I live in Ohio and most guys I know hunt with a crossbow or at least own one to have the choice. Hasn't hurt the deer heard at all like you said. In fact they upped the limit in my county this year to 3 deer. 1 Buck and 2 Doe. Seems like heard gets bigger every year and we're doing all we can to keep it in check. We have record #'s killed almost every year and the heard still rebounds to bigger numbers than the year before. Anyone want the exact facts got to ODNR web site for the numbers.

RE: Cross Bow Frustration
 

Here in Ontario crossbows have been legal for over 20 years and there are no issues at all with the stories the anti crossbow guys like to spin. They have no more effective range than a regular bow either. What they are is obviously much easier to shoot and kill with. You still need the same "HUNTING" skills as the guy shooting a compound. You still need to find a deer, hang in a tree and take him within @ 30 yds. The deer does not die any quicker or slower. Its still a broadhead that does the job in the end. I would rather a guy admit he can't shoot a bow well enough and switch to a crossbow than go out every year and wound game. Its not entirely as challenging to be sure (the shooting part ) but it allows more people to hunt. I could use one if I wanted, I don't but have absolutely no problem with a guy who does. Hunters should help each other not try and prevent each other from hunting.

RE: Cross Bow Frustration
 

Oh I know he wasn't bashing them...I just thought this might be a good time to discuss crossbows and the stigma that surrounds them. Seriously - I have a bad shoulder (I'm not on disability or nothin') from drawing an overly heavy compound of a relative one day trying out his bow (must have been 80# or better!). Still not enough of a disability here in NY to obtain a legal permit!

RE: Cross Bow Frustration
 

Teamster - thanks for sharing!

Anyone interested in the Ohio DNR figures they can be found in .pdf format at: http://www.ohiodnr.com/wildlife/Hunting/WildlifeStatusReport_04/white-taileddeer.pdf

They are very interesting. Seems OHIO has suffered no ill effects - thats for sure!

Teamster - are their any good Non-Resident State Lands for crossbow hunters to hunt? I'd love to have the opportunity to harvest a deer via the crossbow!

????

RE: Cross Bow Frustration
 

TerryM,
Thanks for sharing! Honestly - this wasn't the kind of reply I was anticipating! I was expecting to get lynched for my opinion!

Seriously - its very impressive that the stigma of the crossbow is slowing fading. We have a group here in NYS that absolutely detests crossbows and their organization has been THE reason we still do not enjoy the crossbow. Your right - its not terribly challenging in the fact that they are easier to master - but the guy does still have to guess the yardage (unless close) and do everything else right. My guess if legalized here after the initial excitement dies off some guys will find that they want more challenge and still use their stickbows (or both).

I think the perceived fear is worse than the actual threat!

RE: Cross Bow Frustration
 

Please do not judge those who may use or choose to use crossbows in conjunction with disability based upon the supposed statements of one person.

According to the Illinois DNR and state statutes ...

The Department of Natural Resources offers two special permits for people with disabilities:

Crossbow: Special permits may be issued by the DNR to qualified handicapped persons allowing them to use a crossbow to hunt species during regular archery seasons. This permit must be carried by the hunter along with all required hunting licenses, stamps or permits. To qualify for a crossbow permit, a person must either have a permanent physical impairment due to injury or disease, congenital or acquired, that renders him/her so severely disabled as to be unable to use a conventional bow and arrow device, or must be legally blind.

Permanently handicapped persons, as defined by law (520 ILCS 5/2.33), may apply to the DNR’s Office of Law Enforcement for an exemption to allow the use of a crossbow. A physician’s certification is required (see Disabled Outdoor Opportunities - Special Permits on page 27).

(jj) Nothing contained in this Section shall prohibit the use of bow and arrow, or prevent the Director from issuing permits to use a crossbow to handicapped persons as provided by administrative rule. As used herein, "handicapped persons" means those persons who have a permanent physical impairment due to injury or disease, congenital or acquired, which renders them so severely disabled as to be unable to use a conventional bow and arrow device. Permits will be issued only after the receipt of a physician's statement confirming the applicant is handicapped as defined above.


Unless your " pin in the ankle " person has another disability that prevents his from using a conventional bow, then both he ( definately ) and any physician(s) ( likely ) are violating the law.

Unless of course it can some how be proved that his ankle pin prevents him from drawing back a regular bow, which I doubt.

I would suggest finding out who this person is. ( name, address, vehicle plate, etc ) and perhaps consider having him investigated.

Unless he is BS-ing you as to his reason for a permit and has another legitimate condition, his actions could have a negative effect on those who are legitimately disabled who may seek to obtain a permit for a crossbow.

His actions can also have a negative effects on other states like New York where there is legislation to change crossbow laws that are so strict that even people striken with Multiple Sclerosis are unable to qualify for a permit. The New York bowhunters association unfortunately opposes such legislation in the belief that if qualifications are relaxed that every Tom, Dick, and Harry with a hangnail will be out there with a crossbow. While the proposed New York legislation shouldn't relax restrictions to such a degree that anyone with a hangnail would qualify, having this person being qualified in Illinois as disabled with an ankle pin does not help the situation.

If what you say about him is true, then JERKS like him hurt legitimately handicapped persons who may not be able to bowhunt as is the case in places like New York.

RE: Cross Bow Frustration
 

Thanks Tim for the legal info. And your correct in that NY Bowhunters has been a major negating factor (even our NYS Conservation Council and NYSDEC supports the legalization of crossbows here) in our state getting the crossbow legalized. NY Bowhunters enjoys a vast membership where bowhunters fear what they don't understand.

I would bet that if you took some of these bowhunters to a range with the crossbow and actually shot one of them many opinions would go right out the door after shooting one of these implements. fallacies such as extreme velocity, trajectory, safety, etc would be disproved in a hurry. I know - I was one of them for many years until I actually purchased one and shot it extensively.

RE: Cross Bow Frustration
 

The guy was just abusing the system
Concerning the texas requirements for a X Bowneeds to be changed. I have a bone disease that is only at this time from my waste down. I still cant draw a regular bow though,I have the arm strenth ,but the strain reflects to my lower body causing pain only morphine can ease.And My bones will splintter and had my hip even dislocate when trying to pull a bow .all bones are connected together.The Texas definition would exempt me from hunting. I cant use climbers,ladders. Sometimes because wheelchairs dont roll over some terrainI crawl tothe edges of fields and etc.which would leave me a non hunter in some states that have no x-bow hunting or States like Texas that falls short on the requirements

RE: Cross Bow Frustration
 

Forgive me for taking part of your comment out of context, Scoobie, but that is a well worn crossbow catch phrase and I think this would be a good time to discuss motivation.;)

It's not fear. It's not even 'selfishness'.... another time-honored crossbow hotword. It's simply that bowhunters believe archery season has always been, and should always be, for BOWS. Curiously enough, the same arguments that are floating around now in the crossbow debate are exactly the same arguments that were floating around 35 years ago during the compound debate. We knew way back then the compound would lead directly to the crossbow.

There is not a whole lot of functional difference between crossbows and one of today's high letoff bows. Whether you lift the crossbow into position and flip off the safety 2-3 minutes before taking the shot or whether you draw the bow and hold for the same 2-3 minutes before taking the shot - either way, you are NOT drawing in the immediate presence of the animal. So that argument is now moot. Does it matter that the mechanical release is integral to the weapon or a seperate, stand alone piece of equipment? No. Also a moot point. A 300 fps crossbow bolt is no more deadly nor does it have greater range than a 300 fps arrow. Another moot point.

There are only two advantages a crossbow has over a high letoff compound... 1) It can be shot from a rest. 2) It can be shot from the prone position.

I am thoroughly disgusted with Pope and Young Club for breaking faith and dropping their maximum letoff rule, not to mention all the state organizations that have followed suit. The PBS anti-crossbow committee is a wonder to behold. They can't come up with any arguments against the crossbow that hold water without also condemning the modern high letoff compound, so they make up stuff. None of these organizations have any credibility left on their anti-crossbow stances.

And that's where I find myself. I cannot oppose crossbows while saying high letoff compounds are acceptable. I may be a lot of things, but I am not a hypocrite. Having said that, I still think bow season should always be for BOWhunters and crossbows limited to the *truly* disabled. HOWEVER, if I were king, I'd have to make changes: Any bow over 65% actual letoff would be defined as a crossbow and be subject to the same exclusion. I would also limit mechanical releases to the disabled.

Actually, just getting rid of the mechanical release would erase 90% of the similarities between compounds and crossbows.

Cardeer, the Texas law would prevent you from hunting in bow season, but that's only the month of October. It'd leave you another 2 months, even 3 months with a little careful planning, of general season to hunt deer with whatever weapon you want.

RE: Cross Bow Frustration
 

Arthur,
Well - I can't see the harm in legalizing crossbows in our state during the firearm season for those so opposed to it during bow season. And a crossbow is a bow - not a gun as some state. A crossbow has a string, limbs, sometimes wheels, shoots an arrow and is around 300 fps and has limited range and a curved trajectory. It has no barrel, rifling, firing pin, etc. so that argument that a crossbow is more of a gun than a bow is BS. It shoots an arrow and not a bullet. It has no great knockdown power, muzzle velocity, etc.

Thosewho oppose it here feel that to legalize it during the firearms season is a 'foot in the door' to future legalization during the bow season. Bowhunters here faced a more-serious threat of DEC adding a muzzle loader season during the archery only season - and that in itself is another can of worms I'll not address here. There's another 'primitive season' that allows the new muzzle loaders that deliver high power rifle-like velocities and trajectories vs. the primitive black power firearms it was meant to be.

Modern technology has invaded all facets of hunting today be they archery, muzzle loader, etc.

The crossbow isn't any big deal the way I see it. Those that oppose it are selfish in that they feel EVERYONE needs to bowhunt the WAY THEY CHOOSE TO - be it various degrees of difficulty - or not. They should be more concerned with PETA or the modern trend of hunters today faced with the loss of land to hunt on, etc.

RE: Cross Bow Frustration
 

I don't know how it is in Ohio but in PA that definitley would be abusing the system.

RE: Cross Bow Frustration
 

True. Sad, but true.

But the very fact that they are considering a muzzleloader season concurrent with your archery season should be sending up flares, sounding warning klaxons, waving red flags....If the game commission feels archery equipment has progressed so far that muzzleloaders hold no advantage over it, then you're looking at the beginning of the end of your state's bow season. Most of the guys shooting compounds now - even the ones hollering they want the crossbow - will skip right over crossbows and go directly to muzzleloaders.

Sales of archery gear will fall like a gob of mud on a flat rock. But, on the bright side, you'll find out for sure how many people truly WANT to hunt with a crossbow.

I can tell you a little about that. Crossbows have been legal for hunting in general season in Texas for about 20 years now. In that time, I've only seen two people using crossbows in general season. Myself (suprized?) and one other guy. Not much demand for crossbows when people can choose firearms instead. Come to think of it, you can say the same for compounds. You find out who the real hardcore bowhunters are when you're out in general season. The vast majority of bowhunters I come across in general season are using longbows or recurves.

So, IMO, the biggest danger to bowhunting is not PETA or other anti-groups. It's coming from within, from all the technology. Once bowhunter success rates are equal to gun hunter success rates - and they are getting closer every year - you can kiss bow seasons goodbye.

Well, that's when the traditional guys will begin lobbying for their own special traditional-only bow season... no compounds and no crossbows.

RE: Cross Bow Frustration
 

Honestly - I'd hunt with the crossbow any day vs. the shotgun here in the shotgun/handgun only areas. I dislike shotguns greatly and prefer bowhunting no matter what. I don't care if I am 'handicapping' myself to a degree. I like the bow, and enjoy the challenge of getting close to my game and figuring out my plan of attack and strategy more than just going 'boom' and its over.

RE: Cross Bow Frustration
 

Scoobedoo, were do you live in New York.

RE: Cross Bow Frustration
 

Oneida - Central NY.

RE: Cross Bow Frustration
 

I know what you mean. I'm the same way. I'd imagine most everyone on this forum feels the same. BUT, for every one of us there are thousands more who could really care less. The vast majority of 'bowhunters' out there wouldn't so much as glance at a bow if they could use firearms instead. Could all of us hardcore bowhunters, put together, keep the entire archery industry going if bow seasons wound up being combined into firearms seasons? I don't see it.