arrow trajectory?
 

This will be my first full season of bowhunting and of course I have questions. I thank you in advance for your input.

I'm shooting a Hoyt Cybertec thatwas sighted on the ground at 20 yards. My questions are:

1) If I'm 25 feet in the tree and shoot 20 yards out, where will my point of impact be versus shooting at the same target at the same distance from the ground? My guess is it will be high because shooting downward means lessgravity pull on the arrow.But, how much higher it will hit,I don't know.

2) Same tree, same height, but shooting only 10 yards out. Where would my point of impact be?

3) Same tree, same height, but pretty much straight down... point of impact?

RE: arrow trajectory?
 

dohcrxl: this is the way i do it and i dont worry about my stand height.

I sight my pins in on the ground at 20-25-30-35-40...then when i am putting up my stand i measure distances from the ground (ie. 23 yds from the base of the tree to the trail. Then when i go to shoot I dont need to worry about how high up my stand is I just split the difference between my 20 and 25 yd pins. This is all assuming the ground is relatively flat.....If you are hunting on the side of a mountain, then you do need to worry about how high it will be.

Any easy wayto remember how high it will shoot is that is will be the horizontal distance from you to the target. So if your are 30 yds up a tree and the deer is five yds from the base of the tree, if you use your 30 yd pin...it will be like shooting at your target from 5 yds with your 30 yd pin.

hope this helps

RE: arrow trajectory?
 

Your best bet would be to set up a stand at the approximate height you like to hunt from and practice the various shots you mentioned. And make sure you take some shots with all your heavy hunting clothes on. Then you can go out in the woods with confidence.

RE: arrow trajectory?
 

its all for not if you don't understand why you must bend at the waist from an elevated position. When you are up there come to full draw and anchor just like you were on the ground and aim out over your intended target. in your case you will be aiming 25 feet high level out form where you are at. Now to get on target you must hold the same anchor points. by bending at the waist you will lower the sight onto the target. Do not just drop your bow arm down to get on target your anchor points will move and no tellin where your arrow may go. you must move your whole upper body as a unit.. You can pratice on the ground by coming to anchor and aiming out straight and then bend at the waist to lower everything to a lower target. you would use your same pins as on the ground. you should really pratice from a high spot before you attempt this on a live deer.. good luck.

RE: arrow trajectory?
 

Help me understand because I just can'timagine being 30 yards (90 feet) up a tree. LOL jk... but seriously, I don't understand your system. Please elaborate a little more or give me a more realistic situation. Instead of being 30 yards up a tree let's say I'm 8 yards up and the deer is 20 yards from the base of the tree. How would I guage this particular predicament?

RE: arrow trajectory?
 

There's an outdoor range I go to with a raisedshooting platform that's 12 feet high. I don'tgo through the motion of aiming over my target then bending my waist to get on target. But, I can always group. Are you saying that this motion is necessary to hit my target? If so why? Please forgive the novice inquiry.

I guess just reiteratingand I know it's probably all part of good shooting form but explain how this helps.

Ifyou're shooting almost straight down, the gravitational pull that exists when you're shooting on the ground is near inexistent. Why should I still use the same pins?

Let me explain what I'm asking a little more - OK, when you're shooting on the ground and the arrow hits the intendedmark, it is because the pin is set at a certain position. Thatpin positioning is determined by gravity, arrow speed, and arrow weight. While that arrow is in flight for those 20 yards, all those factors effect the point of impact. If you're a good shot, you can hit your target all day long at 20 yards on the ground.

However, as soon as you elevate your shooting position, one or more of those factors change. Your arrow of course stays the same weight. Your arrow speed may increase an immeasurable amount due to the downward shooting angle. That third factor, gravity, changes. Because you're shooting at a downward angle, the arrow isn't flying horizontal to the ground which lessens the gravitational pull. Just like if you threw a baseball down a hill versus across a field. Throwing it horizontally across the field is going to be harder because there's more gravitational pull to overcome, thus you can't throw it as far as down a hill.

-or- am I seeing this all wrong? I'm just thinking about all those times I've gone squirrel hunting and have missedHIGH many times when I've shot downhill.

RE: arrow trajectory?
 

You know, just trying to visualize arrow trajectories and points of impact at different heights and distances it seems to me that:

if you're 20 feet up and the deer is20yards out, your 20 yard pin will hit dead on. If that deer is only 10 yards out, you must use your 30 yard pin for it to hit dead on. And if it's at the base of the tree, you'd have to use your 40 yard pin even though the deer isn't 40 yards away. I don't know how to explain it but it's all in arrow path versus sight path... kinda like sighting in a rifle.

Please confirm or correct... thanks.

RE: arrow trajectory?
 

dohcrxl.

Never heard that one before, I may be wrong but I am pretty sure that using your 40 yd pin on a deer 5 yds from your tree, no matter how high you are is a recipe for a certain miss.

I hold the same as if I was on level ground, I use a kisser button now to guarantee a consistent anchor point.

I am no expert just my opinion.

RE: arrow trajectory?
 

One last word, gravity NEVER changes:

Ask any physisist to read your quote:

" That third factor, gravity, changes. Because you're shooting at a downward angle, the arrow isn't flying horizontal to the ground which lessens the gravitational pull. Just like if you threw a baseball down a hill versus across a field. Throwing it horizontally across the field is going to be harder because there's more gravitational pull to overcome, thus you can't throw it as far as down a hill."

I am sure he or she would find many errors with your logic.

If you throw a baseball off a cliff, it will go the same forward distance as if you threw it on level ground.
Gravity stops the ball at the same distance.

RE: arrow trajectory?
 

dohcrxl, you've sighted in your bow on level ground, right? So, you've sighted in using the actual ground distance from you to the target. When you're up in a treestand, you are basically at the top of the vertical leg of a right triangle. The distance from the tree to the deer is the base leg of the triangle.

So, when you're ranging a deer from the treestand, you are measuring the distance of the hypoteneuse of the triangle, not the actual ground distance your tree is from the deer.

Say you're 30' up the tree (10 yards) and the deer is 10 yards from the tree. Using the ol' Pythagorean Theorum, a^2+b^2=c^2, the distance you would measure from your treestand to the deer would be a tad over 14 yards. But your ground distance is still 10 yards, so you shoot it like it's a flat 10 yards instead of a long 14.

That's one reason I don't use sights. I don't have time to break out the calculator and be doing geometry, trigonometry or advanced calculus before deciding how I want to aim.[8D]

RE: arrow trajectory?
 

I think you owe it to the animal you hunt to actually shoot from your treestand to sight in and understand what the arrow does with the angle you are at. All the theory is great but take a shot and see for yourself at different ranges from the tree. You can also attach some flagging tape to mark out the distances when in the stand.

RE: arrow trajectory?
 

Well, if you want to do things the EASY way, that's what you'd do. But where's the fun in that?[8D];)

Actually, in my last post I was just explaining why .308hunter's method works, which was dohcrxl's followup question.

RE: arrow trajectory?
 

Exactly right... Let's simplify Arthur P's thread and break out a calculator for a second:

Deer = 25 yards away.
You = 22' up in a tree stand (7.33333 yards to be exact).

25 yards squared is 625 (a^2)
7.33 yards squared is 53.77 (b^2)
-------------------------
-------Total:-----> 678.77 (c^2)

Now do a simple square root of 678.77 -----> 26.05 total yards

RE: arrow trajectory?
 

Mr.D, I was thinking sdrawkcab when I thought to use my 40 yd pin at a 5yd deer. It's the other way around, I should actually be using my 20 pin butaiming 4-6 inches low from the intended mark. Correct?

Arthur P, your mention of the Pythagorean Theorum leads me to believe that it doesn't matter how high you are in the tree, you must always shoot at the deer depending on how far it is from the base of the tree. As of right now, it makes perfect sense to me because in your example, even though the arrow is flying a total of 14 yards, when measured in the total amount of HORIZONTAL distance traveled, it's only 10 yds. This 10 yds represents the amount of time ordistance gravity has to work on pulling the arrow down.

RE: arrow trajectory?
 

Ok, i read this post earlier and went out and did a little experiment. I got on my roof and shot from there at a target 20 yards away. As long as i bent at the waist like stated and i hit dead on everytime and i sighted my bowin on the ground. This was the first time shooting from an elevated platform since i switched to fixed pins, i use to use a pendulum. so i have to agree with the guys that said bending at the waist is important causeit made a difference with me

RE: arrow trajectory?
 

I believe this advice from these seasoned hunters about bending at the waist also. I just don't see how bending makes for better form. In my inexperienced eyes I see standing straight up as better posture andthus better form. Anyone care to straighten or rather in this case bend me the right way?

RE: arrow trajectory?
 

If you dont bend at the waistyou will not have the same anchor point and believeme, I know from experience. Last year I missed a 9 pointer at 3 yds and 22 ft up. That is why this year I installed a kisser button. When the kisser is in the corner of my mouth the only way I could make a severe downward shot is to bend at the waist. The kisser forces the bend if you know what I mean.

RE: arrow trajectory?
 

Oops..... I just re-edited my previous post. I had a major error in the 22' calculation thinking it was 22 yards. Good God, back to school for me... [:-][&o]

If you're 22 feet up in a tree and shoot at a deer 25 yards away, you still use the 25 yard pin and bend from the waist a little.

RE: arrow trajectory?
 

The idea is to maintain the good "T" position with your shoulders while keeping the shoulders in alignment with the target. That's always true, whether you're shooting on level ground, uphill or downhill.

If you just elevate or depress the bow arm for shooting uphill or downhill, your shoulders are no longer aligned with the target. That means you won't hold as steady, your draw length will be shorter (which will move your anchor back an inch or more!) and you won't ever be able to keep proper back tension.

Instead of using your arms to point the bow at the target, you point your shoulders at the target and then aim the bow.

If you're not very high in the tree and the shot angle is fairly shallow, you might not have to bend at the waist at all. You can bend the front knee instead. That way you just lean the entire "T" toward the target.

RE: arrow trajectory?
 

This is actually very simple. The distance from the base of the tree to the deer is the only distance you need to worry about. Gravity will act on an arrow traveling parallel to the ground exactly the same over the same horizontal distance as it does travelling at a downward angle. The angle does not matter as far as the effect of gravity is concerned. Trust me on this. What does matter is how you release the arrow from the bow.

If you bend from the waist to account for the downward angle, your arms will be in the same position relative to the bow as if you were shooting level (ie.If you picture a line drawn through the middle of your bodyfrom your waist to the top of your head, your arrow will be perpendicular to that line, and your front arm will be too). If you don't bend from the waist, in order to accomodate the downward angle, you will have to drop your front arm downward to make a downward shot. This will change the position of your arms relative to the bow (ie. picturing that same line through your body, now the arrow will be at a downward angle relative to that line and your front arm will betoo). There will also be changes in the position of your back arm in the two differnt scenarios, changing your release. All of these changes in position will change your anchor point and effect your aim.

Having said all that, it would seem that if you sight your bow in to a yardage on the ground, and you have good form in the tree (ie. bending at the waist), the arrow should hit the same spot on your target at the same ground distance regardless of whether you are standing on the ground or are up in a tree (no matter how far up). While this is theoretically correct, I have found that in practice it is not exactly true, especially with broadheads. Therefore, I practice from a height equivalent to my treestand height with broadheads using the same arrows I will use for hunting.

Under these circumstances I have found that, for me, my broadheads hit a little lower than my field points from a stand than from the ground at distances 30 yards and over, and the same arrows with the same broadheads hit a little lower from a stand than from the ground at distances 30 yards and over. Point being that everyone releases their arrows a little differently under different circumstances, and if you don't practice shooting under those diffferent circumstances you don't really know what will happen when you do. After practice shooting all of my hunting arrows with my hunting broadheads under hunting conditions (including wearing the same clothes), I have a lot of confidence that when I am actually shooting at an animal I know exactly will happen at every yardage I will be shooting from, at every angle I will be shooting from. Physics matters a lot less to me than experience because the less I have to think, the better off I am when it comes time to squeeze the trigger.

RE: arrow trajectory?
 

when you change heights, you are not going to be able to drop your arm the same amount, you will have to drop it more or less depending on how close or how far the target is. So if you want to hunt higher or lower than the 12 foot sight in height, bending at the waist makes it possible to group from different heights. If you always hunt from a 12 foot height what your doing would be OK. but when you change heights impact points will alos change.. the differences you are worried about with the gravity and the vector thing are not enough to keep you out of the kill zone.. what will keep you out of the kill zone are height changes and your nerves when the live target shows up..


with my set up, on the ground when I am five yards away from the target, I use my 35 yard pin. the closer I get to a target the longer pin I use. when I'm 3 yards away from a target, I use a 42 yard pin, If i'm 2yards away I need a 60 yard pin.

you really need to go close to your target and try this, you will be amazed, reason most miss from a blind close up within 5 yards because they put thier 20 yard pin low on the deer and shoot under it. the 20 yard pin needs to go high on the deer or even above it to hit the kill zone. reason is the arrow travels an arc.

RE: arrow trajectory?
 

BINGO!!!! We have a winner!! DING DING DING!!! Yes, sorry my explanation was a little confusing, but this is whatI was trying to tell you. Your arrow drops because of gravity. Gravity pulls down on the arrow over the horizontal distance that it travels. The farther it goes the more it is pulled down. SO to answer how to know where to aim, you must figure out the horizontal distance between you and the intended target. How high up you are doesn't matter. You must know the distance from the base of the tree to the deer. That is why when I put up a stand, I measure the distance from the base of the tree to where I think the deer will be. Then when the deer is there I already know the horizontal distance to it, and I can center punch his lungs

RE: arrow trajectory?
 

I've been at this game for 15years and I've arrowed my fair share of deer..... I've never changed anything from sighting on the ground to shooting from a tree..... If he looks 15yds, I shoot for 15yds.... I've never hada problem.....

RE: arrow trajectory?
 

Every so often our club sets up a snake shot for our 3D club shoots. Distance is generally 3-4 yards. The traditional guys clean up on it but it totally rips most of the sights shooters.:D It's a real eye opener for folks who never practice shots closer than 20 yards.

RE: arrow trajectory?
 

Use Pythagorean Theorem
The square of the hypotenuse = the square of the adjacent times the square of the opposite.

RE: arrow trajectory?
 

You dont need to go and hanga stand in your yard to practice treestand shots. I assume you have a roof... use it. Or a balcony if you live in an apartment complex. Granted if your on the 5th story, this advice isnt valid [8D]

The one thing to remember, when judging yardage, is when your 25 feet up in a tree, look straight ahead of you and find something close to where the deer is standing. Looking down at the angle WILL throw off your judgement if all you practice judging is on level ground. Look for a tree or other object thats in line with your line of vision at 25'. Makes judging yardage much easier for me!

RE: arrow trajectory?
 

Thank you very mucheveryone, it is all clear now.

RE: arrow trajectory?
 

Hey, I just did this! [8D]

I took my old PSE bow and two XX75 arrows w/field tips up on my back porch roof of my house. I placed that cheap little Wal-Mart styrofoam target thing out in front of the pine tree in my back yard exactly 20 yards away. I estimated I was probably 16-17 feet up (my bow and line of sight that is, not the height at my feet).

I nocked an arrow and relaxed, concentrated, remembered all the advice on this board about bow shooting form and bending from the waist. I stood straight up, my bow arm was perfectly straight, and as I drew back I was looking at the trees in the far back yard through my peep sight! I kept the same form and then bent down from the waist and aligned the 20yd pin with the small bullseye on the target. I slowly pressed the trigger on my release, and THWACK!!! I put the arrow right directly in the bullseye of the target.:D

Then just to see the difference in what everyone is talking about and whatnot, I nocked the other XX75 arrow and this time, I just goofed around. I stood there again and drew back, but this time, I kept my body straightand lowered my bow arm. My release and anchor point were now in the middle of my ear! I sighted the 20yd pin to the center bullseye and hit the release. Guess what happend....
.
.
.
.
I hit the ground right in front of the target! [:-] The improper lowering of the bow arm, caused me to view the target picture as though it were 18 yards instead of 20 and totally threw me off.

Lesson for the day: ALWAYS bend from the waist and shoot the arrow along the "hypotenuse" of the angle. If the distance is 30 yards, shoot for 30 yards. 15 yards, shoot for 15 yards, etc...etc...etc...

Butch A.

RE: arrow trajectory?
 

bingo another winner,, now all ya got to do is remember to do it when Mr. big is down there. Now go close about 7 yards or so and use a 35 -40 yard pin and see where the arrow impacts. then you'll know what to do when one walks in really close to ya.. good luck...

RE: arrow trajectory?
 

7 yards away? I doubt I'd ever have a nice 8 pointer at 7 yards on public land.... [&o] The closest I have ever had a nice big 8 pointer was 20 yards, and he was spooked and real jittery by other hunters. (I still can't get over the fact that I sailed that arrow right over his back last season... What a golden opportunity... He was mine... all mine... I still have dreams about hunting this big 8 pointer!:( )

Another trick that I do in the woods, is make mental notes on the distance of rocks, logs, and most importantly, my sent wicks. Ipace out the distance from the sent wicks tomy treestand. With me being 6' tall and size 11 shoes, I can span one whole yard with onebig step - and I'mpretty close to the actual distance+/- a foot or so.

Butch A.

RE: arrow trajectory?
 

I can't thank you guys enough for this truly invaluable lesson so I'm saying it again... THANK YOU!!!

I realize that all knowledge and wisdomis born ofmuch trial and error. In this case, probably many missing racks on the wall. This thread has great info that I think many of us have yet and need to read. I'm glad I asked!

RE: arrow trajectory?
 

If I'm in a tree and a deer is within 8 yards, I hit dead on when my slider is set on 37 yards.