newby to ML-are the savages good/bad?
 

I'm new to muzzleloading (hunted a couple seasons w/ one 20yrs ago). My son just got old enough to apply for a junior tag in nevada. Here the juniors can hunt archery season, then switch to muzzle loader, then switch to rifle. I also have three daughters coming up(4,5,6yrs out, plus, one nephew1yr out, and his sister also 6yrs out). So this gun will get USED,ABUSED, and otherwise get the crap shot out of it. The smokeless sure sounds nice when going to the range w/ 6 kids(less clean up:D). I'm thinking 45cal, accutrigger. I'll also be useing it for elk if I'm lucky enough to draw the tag. My question is this, will this set up do me right? I usually dont skimp on quality, but cant afford to waste my money either.

RE: newby to ML-are the savages good/bad?
 

I'd contact your Fish and game dept/Dept. Nat resources first. Find out what's legal for use then look for a muzzleloader.

RE: newby to ML-are the savages good/bad?
 

the regs say muzzle loader, which the savage is. No scopes allowed.

RE: newby to ML-are the savages good/bad?
 

What about 209 primers and smokeless powder? Fiber optics? I'm afraid I'm unfamiliar with Nevada laws. If Smokeless isn't legal then I would likely go with something else other than a Savage. It's just a little more to clean than a regular muzzleloader with Triple Seven or Pyrodex

RE: newby to ML-are the savages good/bad?
 

After years of shooting a muzzleloader I would suggest cutting your teeth on a affordable inline and then seeing if you want to upgrade.

Cleaning the rifle is not that hard and you will know soon after starting to ml whether it is something you want to get deeper into. It is addictive as hell.

Everything you need to know about muzzleloading will apply to the Savage if you get one but I do not think any newby to the sport should spend that type of money with all the great rifles out there. Besides I would rather screw up a $200 rifle than a $500 one. The gun is made for experienced muzzleloaders.

I know you will buy what you want to so have fun be safe and I hope I helped.

RE: newby to ML-are the savages good/bad?
 

http://www.chuckhawks.com/william_ball.htm

RE: newby to ML-are the savages good/bad?
 

The book I have says scopes are not legal but fiberoptic and laser sights are. It says smokeless is legal but I agree the Savage is not in my opinion a starter type of muzzleloader. It is a great gun but one you can really get into trouble with if you are not completely in tune with the powders and loading etc. Since you cannot use a scope the extra distance possible with the Savage would not be of any advantage. I would get a decent US manufactured inline of some type (go check out a few and find one that you like) and set it up with a good peep sight and spend a lot of time shooting until you know what you and the rifle are capable of. Most rifles out there will shoot well enough to hit what you can see with non-scoped sights. Limit your shots to 100 yards and have a lot of fun. And by the way stay away from smokeless powder with any of the other muzzleloaders even though Nevada says it is legal the rifle manufacturers do not want it used in any of the rifles I am familiar with other than the Savage. Very dangerous to use in a muzzleloader not designed for smokeless. It will likely cause barrel rupture with bad results to the shooter like severe head wounds etc.

RE: newby to ML-are the savages good/bad?
 

Savage is a great ML no worries their and if you can use smokeless why the heck not pick the Savage. I agree that not being able to use a scope does make it's potential mooted some but the fact you can use any powder is a big plus! Also not sure I agree that a Savage isn't a newbie gun, as I have seen newbie's/vets double load and make mistakes with the regular inlines, etc. I also wonder if not having any or limited previous knowledge of ML wouldn't be a better thing in some cases as when starting out fresh you learn how to load it, buy/use the right tools and begin the familarity process. However if you had a inline and where use to measuring volume loads of 100,110,120..etc their may be cause for some intial concern of loading the savage improperly, either by method or amount of the smokeless powder charge. I don't even own a savage but hunt with a few guys who do and really see no safety issues if you follow Savages guidelines, really no different than if you buy a Knight, TC or whatever their is a learning curve and the manual/guidelines laid out for the user, it should be followed.

Good point about smokeless it is meant for the Savage only, so if you really want this in your ML - Savage is the only option. As to cleaning regular inlines, they are not nearly as difficult as some make them appear, especially with todays advancements/choice of cleaner propellants for the front stuffers...to me it really isn't a huge issue b/c I still clean my CF's and such regularily.

Also if elk are a possibilty I would go with a 50 cal, not only will it prove better all around usage for various game. Finding accessories/bullets is much easier as it is the standard or most popular with inline users.

RE: newby to ML-are the savages good/bad?
 

The Savage is a fine ML no doubt. But only has a year warranty.

I also suggest a lower line model to start with. But you can get a base ML that will provide many years of excellent service if properly maintained.

I would recommend a T/C Omega or Knight Elite. These new can be had for $325-450 depending on the model and are superb shooting ML's. Go with a .50 cal.

For lifetime warranty, service and quality, you really cannot go wrong with Thompson/Center or Knight. I'd give the edge to T/C overall.

So what if you can't shoot smokeless powder. There are substitute powders that are very clean (Black Mag'3, 777, Pinnacle, APP).

I'd also suggest not taking the kids to the range for the first few trips until you get the hang of shooting an ML and have some base loads developed.

My .02.

RE: newby to ML-are the savages good/bad?
 

I'm attracted to a Savage muzzleloader - I've owned to savages (110E and 111f) and got a chance to squeeze off an Accu-trigger and thought it was great.

Looks to me though, that getting a Savage ML only buys you another fifty yards and easier cleanup, over a humble CVA. A friend of mine who I took shooting asked me, the other day, what spending an extra 200 over the cost of a $100 CVA Staghorn/buckhorn would get him, and.. I didn't have a ready answer.

What does one gain, by getting an expensive muzzleloader? Ability to use stouter loads? Are Savages/Knights/Whites substantially more accurate than, say, a CVA inline?

RE: newby to ML-are the savages good/bad?
 

Not all the good muzzleloaders are expensive. Look at the Sidekick or Wolverine.

RE: newby to ML-are the savages good/bad?
 

A $500 ML rifle is considered moderate-priced.

Not only should you consider the rifle quality, you need to look at the fine print of the CVA warrany vs that of Knight or Thompson. The latter two cover your rifle literally for life. Thompson even claims it will replace your barrel if you can possibly wear it out. It has freely changed my twenty year-old T/C triggers, locks & actions.

Take a look at the new owners manuals for CVA, Thompson & Knight. You will find powder grain & bullet grain restrictions in the CVA manual. Plus, an additional $200-$300 for the right muzzleloaders opens the "I'm Hooked" avenue you may succumb to in a year or two. Once you're hooked, it's a nice, reassuring feeling knowing you have a quality firearm in your hands. I use my MLs for all hunting these days. Very seldom do I blow the dust off my centerfires or shotguns anymore because MLs are more fun ... more challenging.

Buy a moderately priced ML for starters. Even your resale value will be an improvement if/when you ever sell it. The price differences in this sport are not enormous from the moderate priced ones to the inexpensive ones -- but the quality/warranty of the mid-level Knights & T/Cs (for example) are enormously different from the inexpensive ones from CVA, Traditions.... etc

RE: newby to ML-are the savages good/bad?
 

I have no doubt that a Savage Muzzleloader is a fine quality rifle and very accurate, although I have never shot or even held one for that matter. I have read too many posts on other forums of people that used them hunting and some of the shots they have made are remarkable to say the least. That is not to say that other black powder rifles are not able to do the same kind of thing.

One point I want to address is, it sounds like you do not want to get into BLACK POWDER RIFLES. I mean by this you want a muzzleloader but the idea of the mess and fuss of black powder is not appealing to you. It sounds like what you want is a muzzleloader that acts like a single shot centerfire rifle. Well then the Savage is for you. You can load and shoot it as a muzzleloader and when using smokeless powder you do not have to worry about the cleaning aspect like many of us.

If you really want to get into Black Powder rifles and have some fun, then a Traditional Style Rifle would be the way I would go. I would personally get a .54 caliber Thompson Center Hawkins rifle. I say this because you wanted to hunt elk possibly. Many States do not allow a .45 caliber rifle for elk or other big game for that fact. The .54 caliber can be loaded down so even young children can shoot it. They are a very user friendly gun once you learn them.

The other reason I suggest a Thompson Center Hawkins is you mention all these young people coming up in the sport that will be using the rifle. Well if you can find a better warranty then a Thompson Center rifle, let me know. If it breaks, they fix it. Also a tradtional rifle is a lot of fun. You have to learn to use them. Not like some of the inline rifles out there that you dump two or three pellets down them, seat the projectile, 209 primer it and then fire. Traditional rifles are something totally different. Not that hard to learn and a lot of fun when all the smoke floats out and around them when you fire.

I own a lot of rifles. Inlines, sidelocks and flintlocks and love to shoot them all. But my real passion it seems are the sidelocks and flintlocks. The inlines are great do not get me wrong. But I know that with the right powder charge and projectile in my inline, I can shoot out there at long distances and hit every time normally. With the traditional your range might be limited but the fun is not.

Its a real experince to hunt with a traditional rifle. I am sure what ever one you get you will enjoy. Good luck with your purchase.

RE: newby to ML-are the savages good/bad?
 

I am not a fan of bolt-action rifles, but if I were to buy only (1) ML during my entire life, it would be the Savage smokeless. You get a very strong piece of equipment that's darn accurate -- plus you can shoot the best of both worlds... ie... smokeless or blackpowder/substitutes.

(Edit) If I had to keep changing the costly vent liners in the Savage while using blackpowder-only, I would not get the Savage. Instead, I would purchase a T/C Encore with several centerfire barrel options for the future.

RE: newby to ML-are the savages good/bad?
 

who could ever only buy one muzzleloader in their life time... :D :D :D

RE: newby to ML-are the savages good/bad?
 

My point on this thread seems to have been lost again on the virtues of different fifles out there. I tried to simply state that I would not spend a lot of money on my first muzzleloader because many who buy them end up not shooting them because of the work involved. You all know this three hours at the range and you took 20 shots.

Cayugad my first ml was that CVA I talked about on the other bb and it has turned me into a ml shooter. $100 and a few trips to the range and I was hooked. I bought a Renagade for my second rifle (a kit no less). Then a Scout Carbine and finally an Encore. It was the fact that I liked the sport kept me going.

Other people I know just bought them for the extra few days of deer hunting and did not want to take the time to be a shooter with these rifles.

Muzzleloading even with a Savage is a comitment well beyond that of a cartridge shooter and that is why I think you should start off with something that won't break the bank and work up to the magnum rifles after you know you can handle them.

And yes a traditional rifle is a great way to start that's how I started.

RE: newby to ML-are the savages good/bad?
 

WOW... thanks for the quick replies. It's clear as .....mud :D. I dont think that I need to worry about powder charges any more w/ the smokeless than the blackpowder, since I do reload for my rifles and have no desire to blow my own nose over into california w/ an overcharge[:o]. Please keep the comments comeing.:)
Cayugad-your exactly right!! I felt that the savage would be more like a single shot rifle than a traditional ML. the muzzleloader season would be fairly long for the kids and would really add to their hunting time, and your right...I dont feel like all the mess of blackpowder,at least now. Who knows, when all the kids get going I my very well own several ML's of some sort.