6" - 7" Spread - What I'm I doing wrong?
 

I am a new black powder shooter. I was using 95 grains of 777 powder and Maxi-Hunter 350 grain bullets. The rifle I'm using is a TC black diamond with peep sights. My target was set at 25 yards. I was bench rest shooting.

I was all over the target. 6 -7 inches. I have no idea what I was doing wrong. The rifle's trigger is very smooth. I am an experienced high power rifle shooter and have never had this problem before.

At a hundred yards with my 30-06 I can shoot 1" or better.

Any help will be appreciated.

RE: 6" - 7" Spread - What I'm I doing wrong?
 

It might not be you at all. Perhaps your rifle does not like that powder charge or that projectile. What other projectiles have you tried other then the Maxi Hunter? Of those did you have better results? Is there a reason why you shoot the maxi hunter and not some other projectile?

Why don't you try using 70 grains of Triple Se7en FFg and the Maxi Hunter and see if the groups do not get tighter. You might also want to put a wonderwad between the powder charge and the projectile and see if that does not make a better group.

If you can shoot sabots where you hunt, then get some 250 grain T/C Shockwaves and load 100 grains of Triple Se7en and shoot them. I get excellent results shooting the Shockwaves out of my T/C Black Diamond XR.



I also have great luck shooting 460 grain No Excuses Conicals with 80 grains of Triple Se7en out of the Black Diamond XR. If where you hunt you are required to shoot conicals this would be the way I would go (or at least try).

Some other good loads are the 375 grain Buffalo Bullet SSB with 100 grains of Goex 2f. I shoot outstanding groups.

Hope this helps. You have a great shooting rifle there.

RE: 6" - 7" Spread - What I'm I doing wrong?
 

Baldman,
At 25 yards, it doesn't get much worse than 6-7 inch groups. At 100 yards, you can multiply that by 4 and you have a 24 to 28 inch group. If you can call that a group.

If you are consistent with your loading, and your barrel is not excessively fouled from shot to shot, then I would say that your gun does not like the Maxi-Hunters.
My dad has a T/C Hawken that shoots a 385 gr. Buffalo Bullets very well. My T/C Hawken hates them.
My groups never got really tight until I learned to seat my bullet with the same amount of pressure every time. From measuring the powder, to seating the bullet try to do it exactly the same way every time.

Try several different loads. At 25 yards it usually doesn't take long to start making jagged holes in your target with a muzzleloader.

C. Davis

RE: 6" - 7" Spread - What I'm I doing wrong?
 

First of all, you bought a sabot gun with a fast twist. Normally, 350 gr conicals are fond of slower, medium twists from 1-38 to 1-48". Your rifle will shoot a conical well out to 100 yards, but the optimum conical bullet size to accomplish this is 430-460 grains.

Despite all this, you should still be getting pretty decent groups out to 50 yards with your combination of twist & bullet. Cayugad's mention of around 70-75 grains 777 is sound advice. So is a clean, dry barrel with no patched lubes like Bore Butter in your barrel. The lube that's on the Maxihunter is all the lube you need.

Swab your bore every 2nd shot with Windex to start.... one dry patch after each swab using both sides of the patch. The idea is to keep your bore just a tad dirty. Most muzzleloaders shoot better/more consistent with a fouled bore.

Also make sure your powder is not old or moisture-driven.... that will affect consistency & accuracy. Powder must be poured slowly for best results & bullet seated with the same hand force every time. Make sure your open sights or scope is tight. If the scope is a used model, remove & replace it for troubleshooting purposes.

You should also consider another bullet to try & possibly a wonderwad between the powder & bullet. Lead Powerbelt conicals are cheap to purchase at ...
http://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com
Your Bl. Diamond shoiuld shoot the 295 grain good. If you desire a sabot, start off with the T/C Cheapshots 240 gr. with around 90 grains of powder.

Lead Powerbelts are around $11.50 for 20 at that site. Click on "sabot/bullets" to find them after clicking on muzzleloading. Why they are listed under sabots instead of conicals is a real mystery to me. Also make sure your new bore is really clean. Most blackpowder solvents are weak.... use Birchwood Casey Bore Scrubber Two In One, Butch's Bore Shine or Shooters Bore Cleaner. Use one patch of solvent - one dry patch - one patch of gun oil - one dry patch..... keep repeating this step until clean.

Accomplish all this & you should be on the right track to success. Good luck & keep us informed!

RE: 6" - 7" Spread - What I'm I doing wrong?
 

Very impressed cayudad, nice group. Other than the "oops" of course [8D]. Just wondering what a fouling shot is though?

RE: 6" - 7" Spread - What I'm I doing wrong?
 

I was shooting the same bullets using Pyrodex that day with Baldman (he's my neighbor), with the same gun. I had very good groups. Cayugad asked why were we using Maxi-hunters? Because that's what we found on sale at Wal-Mart. Finding a good selection of bullets here in N. Idaho has proven to be difficult.

RE: 6" - 7" Spread - What I'm I doing wrong?
 

I have two different rifles that always throw the first shot from a clean barrel just a little bit off of where the others will hit. If I do not specifically fowl the barrel I get a first shot flyer. Some projectiles are not all that bad. Others are terrible. I have learned to combat the first shot flyer by fowling the barrel or as told by another poster I added a touch of bore butter to the end of the sabot of the first shot and that brought the group much more in line.

My Knight Wolverine will commonly throw the first shot almost an inch an a half to the right and at 2 o'clock. All the rest will be right on the money. With patched roundballs this is not so apparent. They do not seem to fly with the first shot as often although I have one ball rifle that will throw the first shot off a clean barrel.....

RE: 6" - 7" Spread - What I'm I doing wrong?
 

I can well understand that. I live in an area of the State where there are no sporting good stores within 40 miles of me. Any large city is a two hour drive. So lack of shooting projectiles is common. Especially this time of year because the Wal Mart sold off all their stock of T/C Cheap Shots, XTP's and Shockwaves.. I know, I bought them.... :D

My rifle will shoot the maxi ball well out to about 75 yards. After that, they start to spread open. REAL conicals do well. I order most of my projectiles on line now. It is easier to answer the door then drive all over the place...

Good luck with your rifles.. they are good shooters....

RE: 6" - 7" Spread - What I'm I doing wrong?
 

I have a couple of Black Diamonds and, like Rick Reno, have had pretty good luck with the 350 gr. Maxi-Hunters using Pyrodex Select. I use 100 grains with a Wonder Wad at the base of the bullet. Either of my BD's will shoot 3" to 4" at 100 yards with this load. It performs pretty good on deer sized game.

To be honest, I can't recall any MZ bullet ever shooting as badly as 6" to 7" at 25yards. Have a snub-nose five-shot .38 that will shoot that well . . . . Got to be something whacky going on here.

RE: 6" - 7" Spread - What I'm I doing wrong?
 

So does that mean you don't clean your barrel between shots cayudad? You leave the fouling in the barrel?

RE: 6" - 7" Spread - What I'm I doing wrong?
 

No, I swab between shots. The difference is when I start on a very clean barrel it will shoot to a different POI. Even when we swab the barrel of fowling we never get that barrel clean. All we really do is remove the main crud. I've run four or even five patches down the barrel when shooting Goex and never came up with a clean patch yet...

Today I was shooting my Knight Wolverine II. I have pulled the RED DOT off of it was wanted to see how accuracte the fiber optic sights were. The first shot hit to the right of the bull just like always and the rest then filled the bull. Although it was shooting a hair low with 85 grains of Goex 3f for some reason. So I upped the charge and loaded 100 grains of Clean shot and it did much better.

RE: 6" - 7" Spread - What I'm I doing wrong?
 

I have the same first shot flyer out of a clean barrel. I measure about 70 gr. of ffg Goex, and put a cleaning patch on top of that and shoot without a bullet. That is all it takes to make my first shot right on the money. Then I just swab between shots, and my groups stay tight.

I also have a Green Mountain 1-70 twist barrel I use for very accurate round ball shooting. It is rare for me to have a flyer with this barrel even with it perfectly clean.

C. Davis

RE: 6" - 7" Spread - What I'm I doing wrong?
 

You're generous.. I only dump between 20-30 grains of Goex down the barrel then put a wonderwad on top of that and pop that off. Then a quick swab of the barrel and we are ready to go.

I also have a Green Mountian 1:70 twist .58 caliber but that barrel does not throw a flyer even clean. 100 grains of Goex 2f and a patched roundball and that thing is real accurate. It actually has thrown a flyer but I could never say proof positive it was the rifles fault.

RE: 6" - 7" Spread - What I'm I doing wrong?
 

i think it is just your choice of projectile. i have a 1-28 twist and using 90 grains of goex with a 209 loaded with 240 grain powerbelts it shot bad real bad. about what you are getting for groups. i was getting 8-10 inch groups at 40 yards. the cure was a bigger powerbelt. also found out that it will shot a patch and ball very good. touching some holes at 80 yards. i was told that a twist rate of 1-28 was to fast for balls. proved that wrong it shoots great. i am going to stay will the balls. it may take a 1/2 dozen differant projectiles before you find the one your gun likes. but you'll get it just takes some time.:)

RE: 6" - 7" Spread - What I'm I doing wrong?
 

Many of the 1:28 twists will shoot roundball and do it very well. Thr trick usually is to keep the powder charge down in the 70 or lower grain range so that the ball and patch does not start skipping the rifling in the barrel. My inlines will plink all day with round ball. I would not use them as my standerd load though. If I wanted to shoot roundball I take out my roundball rifle....

RE: 6" - 7" Spread - What I'm I doing wrong?
 

i have been playing around with the 80 and 90 grain of power. seems to do very good with both. i just started using them because i have a sidelock and a flintlock so i have a lot of balls to shoot away. i didn't see the need to shoot the others for a dollar a pop. i don't understand why you would not use them for a standard load.:eek:

RE: 6" - 7" Spread - What I'm I doing wrong?
 

I found that although my inlines will shoot roundball very well, the ocassional flyer is common. I think this is because I cast my own ball and make my own patches. In my other roundball rifles which have a twist made for shooting them, I can push a roundball much harder then 60 grains like in my inline and feel more comfortable for shooting longer distances. Also the chance of a flyer is less.

I have a 1:70 barrel .58 caliber 32" rifle that will put roundball down range as accurate as I can hold. I would shoot with the right conditions all the way out to 120 yards if I had to. This rifle only drops about 3" at 100 yards and this summer we will be testing it all the way out to 150 yards. Not that I am interested in shooting a roundball 150 yards, but I believe that this rifle can do it.....

RE: 6" - 7" Spread - What I'm I doing wrong?
 

Cayugad,
What I really like about the barrel is that once you find the right patch and ball combo, it keeps it's accuracy with just about any powder charge. I like to use FFFG in this barrel because you get less fouling than FFG, and my top load of 90 gr. FFFG is about the same as 105 or so gr. of the two f. I use the 90 gr. charge when I'm shooting 100 yards so I don't lose my elevation.
I usually hunt with the 48 twist barrel and the No-Excuses conicle, but that 90 gr. FFFg roundball charge would be an excellant whitetail load if I wanted to lug the 32" barrel through the thickets I hunt. Not to mention up a tree.

C. Davis

RE: 6" - 7" Spread - What I'm I doing wrong?
 

Without a doubt, the 90 grains and a patched roundball is an excellent hunting load. If the rifle will shoot that to your satisfaction then that is excellent. A nice way to plink and to have a hunting rifle to boot....

RE: 6" - 7" Spread - What I'm I doing wrong?
 

what would the twist rate be on my .45 caliber wolverine 209? (i think theres a short and a long barrel, mines the long i believe). Also, whats the minimum/maximum charge you would put in this gun using loose pyrodex?

RE: 6" - 7" Spread - What I'm I doing wrong?
 

The .45 caliber Knight Wolverine 209 with the 26" barrel has a 1-30 twist. And yes there were shorter models that first came out with a 22" barrel. The manual will tell you the maximum charge but since yours is a 209 ignition I will guess to say that the max charge would be 150 grains of powder (again, refer to your rifle manufacturers recommendations). That does not mean you will get the best accuracy with that kind of load. For instance the Wolverine II which I own has a 22" barrel and they recommend 120 grains as a max load. I personally think the rifle could handle a larger charge but because of the short barrel would never get the chance to burn that off. My rifle depending on the powder and projectile tunes in between 85 - 110 grains of powder.

RE: 6" - 7" Spread - What I'm I doing wrong?
 

cayugad how low have you actually loaded and had good accuracy. i just always loaded 80 or 90 grains for practice being the same as i hunt with. ever been down around 30 or 40 grains. just wondered how it worked out.

RE: 6" - 7" Spread - What I'm I doing wrong?
 

I loaded down to 50 grains of Goex 2f and a REAL conical. And that rifle was just drilling the bullseye with that light load. With roundball I had the rifle down to 40 grains. I was getting an occasional flyer but accuracy was very good at the 35 yard station. The recoil was not even there at that point. That was a day when the kids wanted to shoot, so we were loading everything light for them so they could blast away and not be scared.